Russell T Davies yes/no
- Thread starter Bones2
- Start date
On this -- Rose has a look of genuine heartbreak during Girl in the Fireplace.
I disagree with your analysis in many ways, but namely its conclusion. I found RTD to be very subtle and multilayered and Moffat to be simplistic and hitting me over the head.
Amy and Rory are sitcom characters. What is Rory's motivation to travel with The Doctor? We know why Amy wanted to travel with the Doctor but how has Amy been changed by travelling with The Doctor as a character?
With Rose, Mickey, Jack, Wilf, Donna, Martha -- they changed and grew as believable people.
And Amy trying to jump The Doctor's bones wasn't realistic -- it was a sitcom set up and played for laughs.
Who was Rose before she met the Doctor and how did she change? Mickey? Wilf? Martha? I'd be curious to hear your before and afters showing character growth and development for them.
The only thing I saw was that they went from kind of average people to carrying ridiculously oversized plastic guns and saying "I'm <name>, defending the Earth!" Very much in tune with the spirit of Doctor Who, those big blaster guns.
RTD had the bizzare idea that traveling with the Doctor made you some kind of super hero. Dalek invasion of Earth, but thank goodness! Here's Rose! And Mickey! And they've got guns! Phew!
I think he lost sight of the companions as stand-ins for the audience. We like them because we like to think that a man as a amazing as the Doctor would want to travel with someone like us. And that maybe, maybe once in a while we'll come up with something clever, catch some detail everyone else missed to help save the day. RTD suddenly wanted to turn all the companions into Rambo. Even Wilf was waving a gun around for half of EoT.
Rose explains it perfectly in "The Parting of The Ways" when she's sitting in the diner with Mickey and Jackie. The Doctor showed her a better way of living her life. She learned not to just sit back and let things happen, that it's okay and very important to take a stand and that you can accomplish great things. Seems like quite a development for a random nobody who worked in a shop.
In fact, all of the Doctor's companions grew and changed in much the same manner. He taught them to be selfless, to be brave, and to fight for what they know to be right.
But at the same time, there is a cost, which is the whole point of the "Journey's End." The Doctor inspires these people to be larger-than-life like he is, but unlike him, they are limited by their own resources. So, yes, they take up arms. They carry guns around. And as much as the Doctor loves all of these people, he hates what he turned them into.
In fact, all of the Doctor's companions grew and changed in much the same manner. He taught them to be selfless, to be brave, and to fight for what they know to be right.
But at the same time, there is a cost, which is the whole point of the "Journey's End." The Doctor inspires these people to be larger-than-life like he is, but unlike him, they are limited by their own resources. So, yes, they take up arms. They carry guns around. And as much as the Doctor loves all of these people, he hates what he turned them into.
For all his flaws, and overall, I can't stand RTD's work, I will give him credit for decent character growth. I think you're bang on Gabe, with calling Amy and Rory sitcom characters.
Outside of DW, my only exposure to Moffat's work is Jekyll and Coupling. I didn't mind the former but the latter, for me, sucked. I tried several times to watch it and just thought it was utter crap.
Outside of DW, my only exposure to Moffat's work is Jekyll and Coupling. I didn't mind the former but the latter, for me, sucked. I tried several times to watch it and just thought it was utter crap.
For my money, I love both Moffat's and RTD's character work.
What I will say, though, is that I don't think Moffat writes women as well as RTD did. I'm still waiting, for example, for some character development from Amy that isn't related to the men in her life. So far, her only character arc has been picking between her crush on the Doctor and her love for Rory; but who is she without the Doctor and without Rory? Say what you will about RTD, but Rose had a clear character arc even without adding in her love for the Doctor -- she learned a better way of living. Same with Martha, who, even though she was in unrequited love with the Doctor, learned to believe in herself and stand up for herself (and to use her strength to get OUT of an unhealthy relationship with the Doctor). And Donna, of course, learned to stop being so provincial in her view of the world, to grow and change and expand her horizons. These changes were all inspired by their relationships with a man, sure, but they weren't romance-related changes.
Where's Amy's arc? How has Amy changed aside from (apparently) deciding she's okay with monogamy? How has Amy grown in ways that aren't about her relationships with men?
Moffat isn't a sexist, but I do suspect that his inner romantic sometimes makes it hard for him to write women whose emotional worlds extend beyond their relationships with men. All of his major female characters in Doctor Who are defined fundamentally by their romantic relationships -- Rose's with Nine in "The Empty Child"/"The Doctor Dances," Reinette's with Ten in "The Girl in the Fireplace," River with Ten and Eleven in her appearances, Amy with Eleven and Rory in Series Five, Abigail with Karzan in "A Christmas Carol." The only exception to this is Sally Sparrow -- yet even she arbitrarily falls in love with What's-his-name at the end of the episode not five minutes after explaining to him that she didn't have feelings for him, and the only thing I can think is that Moffat just really wanted his Happy Ending to include the geeky boy getting the pretty blonde. That's his primary failing as a writer, I think; his women aren't quite fully realized characters independent of their relationships with men.
What I will say, though, is that I don't think Moffat writes women as well as RTD did. I'm still waiting, for example, for some character development from Amy that isn't related to the men in her life. So far, her only character arc has been picking between her crush on the Doctor and her love for Rory; but who is she without the Doctor and without Rory? Say what you will about RTD, but Rose had a clear character arc even without adding in her love for the Doctor -- she learned a better way of living. Same with Martha, who, even though she was in unrequited love with the Doctor, learned to believe in herself and stand up for herself (and to use her strength to get OUT of an unhealthy relationship with the Doctor). And Donna, of course, learned to stop being so provincial in her view of the world, to grow and change and expand her horizons. These changes were all inspired by their relationships with a man, sure, but they weren't romance-related changes.
Where's Amy's arc? How has Amy changed aside from (apparently) deciding she's okay with monogamy? How has Amy grown in ways that aren't about her relationships with men?
Moffat isn't a sexist, but I do suspect that his inner romantic sometimes makes it hard for him to write women whose emotional worlds extend beyond their relationships with men. All of his major female characters in Doctor Who are defined fundamentally by their romantic relationships -- Rose's with Nine in "The Empty Child"/"The Doctor Dances," Reinette's with Ten in "The Girl in the Fireplace," River with Ten and Eleven in her appearances, Amy with Eleven and Rory in Series Five, Abigail with Karzan in "A Christmas Carol." The only exception to this is Sally Sparrow -- yet even she arbitrarily falls in love with What's-his-name at the end of the episode not five minutes after explaining to him that she didn't have feelings for him, and the only thing I can think is that Moffat just really wanted his Happy Ending to include the geeky boy getting the pretty blonde. That's his primary failing as a writer, I think; his women aren't quite fully realized characters independent of their relationships with men.
I think both of them can be avilicious and both of them can be subtle. It just depends on the context. Remember, both of them have said their primary audience while writing Doctor Who are eight-year-olds.
More appropriately the target audience is from age eight to eighteen, with something for kids and something for adults. Doctor Who's not strictly a kid's show and is more family orientated, though there's some sexual innendo with occasions of PG-13 level fantasy horror and action adventure violence.
Only for eights to eighteens? I'd better stop watching
I like to think Who is for everyone, there'd be a lower age limit but I bet there are loads of 4 and 5 year olds who are at least aware of the show...
Only for eights to eighteens? I'd better stop watching
I like to think Who is for everyone, there'd be a lower age limit but I bet there are loads of 4 and 5 year olds who are at least aware of the show...
I know a 2.5 year old who thinks it's great.
Only for eights to eighteens? I'd better stop watching
I like to think Who is for everyone, there'd be a lower age limit but I bet there are loads of 4 and 5 year olds who are at least aware of the show...
My Niece who is six loves it, also when my youngest brother was five Christmas Invasion was the only "real life" programme that christmas he wanted to rewatch, the rest were Cartoons on Nick and Cartoon Network - he did say that it was with the guy from Top Gear, but he was five and Hamster and Tennent do look a bit alike.
Anyway, the original question put forward by Bones, no I don't think RTD is a hack, as for my list, here it is:
Rose - Yes - I was aware of Who before this (Giant Maggots on BBC2 stand out) but it was Rose in the Easter of 2005 that got me hooked.
The End of the World - Yes
Aliens of London/World War Three - Not really - it has it's low points, but on the whole, it is a semi interesting story.
The Long Game - Yes - If not only for Pegg
Boom Town - No - the dinner scene is good, apart from that I'll pass.
Bad Wolf/The Parting of the Ways - Yes - Ok, the reality TV segments are a bit off putting, but on the whole, the good outweighs the bad.
The Christmas Invasion - Yes - Just Yes, it had a certain epicness and the ending, wow, if given the choice, I would have done the same as Harriet.
New Earth - no - 'nuff said the better
Tooth and Claw - Yes - Ok, this is where 10 started to grate, but on the whole, it was a good story.
Love and Monsters - Kinda - It's a fun episode and different, some of the gags were a bit to full on though.
Army of Ghosts/Doomsday - Yes - I still get a thrill when the Daleks come out of the Sphere.
The Runaway Bride - Not sure - I've not actually watched it since it's 2006 broadcast, before season four I would have said no, but as Tate really excelled in that season, it's a not sure.
Smith and Jones - yes - Not a fan of Martha, but it was a good episode regardless.
Gridlock - No - Not sure why, just never liked it.
Utopia - Yes - I liked it, can't really put it into words why, but I did.
The Sound of Drums - Yes - The Master as PM, The Valiant and The Doctor, Martha and Jack on the run was fun, plus Saxon sticking it to the President was a nice touch.
Last of the Time Lords - No - The lost year was interesting, having Humanity subjected to such madness was ok, but the reset at the end, utter utter bollocks. - Plus I got seven balled at Pool that night, so the less I am reminded the better
Voyage of the Damned - No - Not a fan of Disaster moves, Kylie's stunt casting along with Tennents portrayal of the Doctor just did not sit well with me.
Partners in Crime - Yes - I thought it was a nice episode and a very pleasant way to open the season - Plus the Adipose were brilliant.
Midnight - Yes - I must admit, on first watch, wasn't keen on it, but it's grown on me.
Turn Left - Yes - I really do like Alt earth scenarios and seeing what would happen if Donna hadn't met the Doctor was nice.
The Stolen Earth/Journey's End - Yes - Yes it was over the top, but I personally liked it, the only really thing that gets me everytime is when Freema/Martha smiles directly at the camera when they are all around the console.
The Next Doctor - No - Wasn't a fan and only seen it once, so not sure what was wrong with it.
Planet of the Dead - Yes - I liked it, wasn't the best episode, but I'll give it a yes.
The Waters of Mars - Not really - If it was part of a series proper, it would be a yes, but as we waited over six months, it was meant to be brilliant, but it fell down somewhere and being a special, it wasn't THAT special.
The End of Time - Yes - It had it moments of utter crap like all the other season finales, but on the whole, I liked it.
And ideally, would want to travel with us even if we didn't look like a sexy blonde pop star.
I think that, when we die, every whiny fanboy complaining about the guy in charge of the TV show he professes to love goes to a special purgatory where he gets kicked in the crotch a couple of times by John Nathan-Turner.
Which is why I tend to stay positive. The stories have to be pretty stanky before I'll bitch about it. Cuz hey, you knever know.
I think what's funny about this is that if it were true one day RTD and Moffat will probably both get the crotch treatment as I get the impression both have been whiny fanboys in their day
Well, I just watched Moff's guest appearance in the "City of Death" documentary where he says that "City of Death" was the only decent story in all of Season 17.
No. RTD's Doctor was a lonely soul. Moffat's Doctor is a clown. Granted, I love the clown. The show in the span of a year has gone from family entertainment by way of dark fantastical drama to family entertainment by way of situation comedy. And RTD was more imaginative; I knew the Pandorica was a prison halfway through the episode and that The Doctor would be tossed in there. Did you know who the Toclafane were? What Bad Wolf meant? What was in the Void Ship? The secret of the Immortality Gate? Why the stars were going out?
I haven't been on the edge of my seat like that in SO long and I miss it.
I would have answered the post on how Rose, Mickey, Wilf and Donna grew as characters -- but others answered it already. The tragedy of Donna's character was that she "died" and was left the horrible person she was prior to The Runaway Bride. The purpose of the companion is not to be an audience member stand-in but someone we can empathize with . . . and that we TOO can be changed by The Doctor and do wonderful things.
Hmm, given how much of a clown Tennant acted at times that's a curious comparison to make...especially given that Smith seems to be playing the lonely soul just as well, and the clownish elements of his personality seem natural, whereas with Tennant it increasingly seems like he was attention grabbing, which is a shame, Tennant was a better Doctor in his quieter moments.
I knew about the Pandorica, but that was mainly thanks to the stupid artist who posted his pics online!
I suspect I'd have figured it out anyway. But then you should be able to look back and work out how it was done, that's what makes a good twist.
By contrast Bad Wolf was terrible that made very little sense, there's no way you could guess what it meant. It's the equvilent of a detective story where the detective solves the crime by suddenly mentioning things the reader wasn't even aware of!
Similarly the stars going out, why was that again?
Being honest the Crack made no more sense than the average RTD arc. That said for me the biggest, most wonderful edge of the seat moment has to be Amy sitting in her wedding dress, looking at a strange blue book and the sudden, wonderful realisation of just what the Doctor had been saying all those years ago.
I knew about the Pandorica, but that was mainly thanks to the stupid artist who posted his pics online!
I suspect I'd have figured it out anyway. But then you should be able to look back and work out how it was done, that's what makes a good twist.By contrast Bad Wolf was terrible that made very little sense, there's no way you could guess what it meant. It's the equvilent of a detective story where the detective solves the crime by suddenly mentioning things the reader wasn't even aware of!
Similarly the stars going out, why was that again?
Being honest the Crack made no more sense than the average RTD arc. That said for me the biggest, most wonderful edge of the seat moment has to be Amy sitting in her wedding dress, looking at a strange blue book and the sudden, wonderful realisation of just what the Doctor had been saying all those years ago.
^RTD admitted he didn't know what Bad Wolf was when he started it and made it up as he went along. There's no way you could possibly know when the writer themselves don't know.
What do you mean, almost??? It does make it worse!!
Sheesh! If you're going to have a series long mystery/arc/whatever, at least plan it out so you as the writer actually know what the hell is going on IN YOUR TV SHOW!!! 
What do you mean, almost??? It does make it worse!!
Few people complain about the lack of a plan when it came to Battlestar Galactica. In any event the end of that first season was altered a few times making any real attempt at a plan pretty hard to pull off.
