Spoilers Russell T. Davies Returns to Doctor Who as New Showrunner

[Allyn Gibson]

The Time of the Doctor is intense, sweet, heartwarming and exciting,

I find The Time of the Doctor appalling, frankly.

In terms of Moffat's "fairy tale" logic, I get it. And Matt Smith sells it.

But when you get into the implications, the problems with the episode are threefold.

One, the Doctor brings death to a town for nine hundred years. That's not "heartwarming." The Doctor positions himself as a kindly wizard to these townspeople, but he's a magnet for all the evil in the universe that's focused on this town, and people die because the Doctor is there.

Two, the nine hundred years ultimately feels fake. The twelfth Doctor's relationship with Clara never feels like there's a nine hundred year gap in there. But, more importantly, the aged eleventh Doctor himself doesn't feel any different. He's manifestly older, yes, but those nine hundred years of death don't seem to have affected him at all. The Time War fucking broke the War Doctor by the end, but the eleventh Doctor, who brought death to a town on a personal level -- he lived with these people for centuries -- affected him not at all. At best, Moffat is simply unwilling to deal with the implications of his storytelling. At worse, he's incapable of doing so.

And three, the Trenzalore of "The Name of the Doctor" doesn't match the Trenzalore of "The Time of the Doctor." I don't think Moffat had any idea what the hell Trenzalore was or would be, it was just a MacGuffin to underlie the late Matt Smith era, and just as Moffat's "Last Day" feels smaller than the Time War RTD's era hinted at, "Time"'s Trenzalore feels too small. There is a level at which I still feel the Trenzalore of "Name" has yet to happen.

the Death in Heaven is underrated character piece and a fantastic showcase for Missy,

It's also absolutely horrific. Moffat's story desecrates every burial ground in the world, and he never, ever addresses that. The psychological trauma that the dead rising from their graves across the world would cause goes completely unremarked. That's not a little thing.

 

[jaime]

I find The Time of the Doctor appalling, frankly.

In terms of Moffat's "fairy tale" logic, I get it. And Matt Smith sells it.

But when you get into the implications, the problems with the episode are threefold.

One, the Doctor brings death to a town for nine hundred years. That's not "heartwarming." The Doctor positions himself as a kindly wizard to these townspeople, but he's a magnet for all the evil in the universe that's focused on this town, and people die because the Doctor is there.

Two, the nine hundred years ultimately feels fake. The twelfth Doctor's relationship with Clara never feels like there's a nine hundred year gap in there. But, more importantly, the aged eleventh Doctor himself doesn't feel any different. He's manifestly older, yes, but those nine hundred years of death don't seem to have affected him at all. The Time War fucking broke the War Doctor by the end, but the eleventh Doctor, who brought death to a town on a personal level -- he lived with these people for centuries -- affected him not at all. At best, Moffat is simply unwilling to deal with the implications of his storytelling. At worse, he's incapable of doing so.

And three, the Trenzalore of "The Name of the Doctor" doesn't match the Trenzalore of "The Time of the Doctor." I don't think Moffat had any idea what the hell Trenzalore was or would be, it was just a MacGuffin to underlie the late Matt Smith era, and just as Moffat's "Last Day" feels smaller than the Time War RTD's era hinted at, "Time"'s Trenzalore feels too small. There is a level at which I still feel the Trenzalore of "Name" has yet to happen.


It's also absolutely horrific. Moffat's story desecrates every burial ground in the world, and he never, ever addresses that. The psychological trauma that the dead rising from their graves across the world would cause goes completely unremarked. That's not a little thing.

It’s the problem with new who being so fully attached to modern day earth. And much as I like that era, I have to agree.
It’s also harder to watch now I have been through more life experiences, which is not a problem in most of the classic series.
Sometimes we need that stained glass fantasy window when looking at hard things, and sometimes maybe those hard things don’t belong in our whimsical family fictions.

It’s like — as a twenty something I thought Revelation of the Daleks was Who being like an experimental play, and was being arty and clever. Amazing performances. As an adult and especially as a parent, I am with some of the audience in the eighties — what the fuck is all that doing in Doctor Who?

 

[Rich Watson]

I thought that The Power of the Doctor was fantastic.

It looks just as good as any of the Disney co-funded episodes, for presumably a lot less money. And it's the last episode to date that feels like a Doctor Who episode.

Which is not me saying there's been no good episodes after that, just that by going down the road of "it's magic so there's no need to make sense", it became a very different series.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

I find The Time of the Doctor appalling, frankly.

In terms of Moffat's "fairy tale" logic, I get it. And Matt Smith sells it.

But when you get into the implications, the problems with the episode are threefold.

One, the Doctor brings death to a town for nine hundred years. That's not "heartwarming." The Doctor positions himself as a kindly wizard to these townspeople, but he's a magnet for all the evil in the universe that's focused on this town, and people die because the Doctor is there.

Except, its not the Doctor who causes the mayhem: The crack is. The crack brought forth the entities that gathered and they would have instigated a mass war in the village and likely exterminated everyone in it long ago, had it not been for the Doctor wanting to protect the people in it from the danger. The Doctor has always acted as a lightning rod, but also as a shield, and his actions as entirely in-keeping with his actions in The Snowmen and The Doctor Falls.

If the Doctor left, the town wouldn’t be saved - it would be annihilated. The Daleks, Cybermen, Silence, etc. are not there because of the Doctor but because of the information leak about Gallifrey, which they think it will restart the Time War by broadcasting the name of the sole Time Lord still in the manifest universe. Also, and crucially, Trenzalore is not destroyed for 900 years. That is an extraordinary success by DW standards. Most planets the Doctor visits don’t get that luxury!

Two, the nine hundred years ultimately feels fake. The twelfth Doctor's relationship with Clara never feels like there's a nine hundred year gap in there. But, more importantly, the aged eleventh Doctor himself doesn't feel any different. He's manifestly older, yes, but those nine hundred years of death don't seem to have affected him at all. The Time War fucking broke the War Doctor by the end, but the eleventh Doctor, who brought death to a town on a personal level -- he lived with these people for centuries -- affected him not at all. At best, Moffat is simply unwilling to deal with the implications of his storytelling. At worse, he's incapable of doing so.

Admittedly, Moffat does not write trauma the way RTD does. That’s a tonal difference, not a storytelling failing however. Also, I would argue that the Eleventh is visibly changed whilst in Trenzalore, because he's stopped running. Like Ten, he was about always running and relentlessly moving along, and the rare instance he'd stay put like The Power of Three he would scoff and moan about boring everyday life is. But by the time he's ready to die (literally on death's door) when he sees Clara as he's become William Elevenell, he quietly exhausted, with no more tricks up his sleeve.

Also...I mean, the destruction was categorically his fault. It wasn't a happenstance he stumbled about and was not reacting toward anything beyond his disgust and long experience in the war itself. In Time he's literally reacting to the Time Lord's broadcast of his name calling. Crucially, he's trying to prevent a Time War, when in the latter he stopped it by causing the deaths of his people and the Daleks. Major difference.

Furthermore, when Twelfth casually but rather and surprisingly often iterates that he is younger looking than he used to be (ie. in Twice Upon a Time), he is referring to his old self in Time. And you mention Name which in itself proof of Clara's deep understanding of the Doctor since during it she learns how ancient and actually emotionally unavailable he is deep within. You assume time must always equal emotional distance. DW has never operated that way.

And three, the Trenzalore of "The Name of the Doctor" doesn't match the Trenzalore of "The Time of the Doctor." I don't think Moffat had any idea what the hell Trenzalore was or would be, it was just a MacGuffin to underlie the late Matt Smith era, and just as Moffat's "Last Day" feels smaller than the Time War RTD's era hinted at, "Time"'s Trenzalore feels too small. There is a level at which I still feel the Trenzalore of "Name" has yet to happen.

But The Time of the Doctor changes that future. If Trenzalore looked exactly the same, that would be the plot hole, because Name of the Doctor show a future where the Doctor dies without regenerating and where Gallifrey is never saved by the Doctor(s) in Day of the Doctor. Also, "feeling smaller" is actually a creative that asbolutely works, because otherwise you miss the thematic move away from spectacle toward character for one of the more bombastic incarnations ever at the end of his existence.

Is it perfect? No, it needed another 10-15 minutes to breathe and to actually show the Eleventh during that time period in Trenzalore, to showcase the character progression better. But I can't complain when the result is one of the most tightly paid-off arcs in modern Who, especially compared to RTD’s often symbolic, rather than literal, prophecies.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

It was certainly a better anniversary ep than the stuff pumped out for the sixtieth. At one point I genuinely theorised RTD had written bits for it.

Then I saw what RTD was writing Who like these days, and realised Power of the Doctor was the brief resurfacing of Chibnalls actual inner child fan. So I shall give him credit, of sorts, for finally letting it out of the cage.

Took you long enough. Gods forbid Chibnall actually wrote something to your liking.

I find The Time of the Doctor appalling, frankly.

In terms of Moffat's "fairy tale" logic, I get it. And Matt Smith sells it.

But when you get into the implications, the problems with the episode are threefold.

One, the Doctor brings death to a town for nine hundred years. That's not "heartwarming." The Doctor positions himself as a kindly wizard to these townspeople, but he's a magnet for all the evil in the universe that's focused on this town, and people die because the Doctor is there.

Two, the nine hundred years ultimately feels fake. The twelfth Doctor's relationship with Clara never feels like there's a nine hundred year gap in there. But, more importantly, the aged eleventh Doctor himself doesn't feel any different. He's manifestly older, yes, but those nine hundred years of death don't seem to have affected him at all. The Time War fucking broke the War Doctor by the end, but the eleventh Doctor, who brought death to a town on a personal level -- he lived with these people for centuries -- affected him not at all. At best, Moffat is simply unwilling to deal with the implications of his storytelling. At worse, he's incapable of doing so.

And three, the Trenzalore of "The Name of the Doctor" doesn't match the Trenzalore of "The Time of the Doctor." I don't think Moffat had any idea what the hell Trenzalore was or would be, it was just a MacGuffin to underlie the late Matt Smith era, and just as Moffat's "Last Day" feels smaller than the Time War RTD's era hinted at, "Time"'s Trenzalore feels too small. There is a level at which I still feel the Trenzalore of "Name" has yet to happen.

Thank you for clearly laying out why "The Time of the Doctor" doesn't work. I've never been a fan of the episode because of how messy it felt but I knew there were more issues with it than just that. Your point about Trenzalore especially feels like another case of not meeting up to the "promised" potential much like I said about "The Reality War."

It's also absolutely horrific. Moffat's story desecrates every burial ground in the world, and he never, ever addresses that. The psychological trauma that the dead rising from their graves across the world would cause goes completely unremarked. That's not a little thing.

Thank you. I've always despised "Hell Bent" and I've always found it baffling that there are some people who think it's great.

It’s the problem with new who being so fully attached to modern day earth.

On this regard, I agree wholeheartedly. That was my biggest complaint about the first Davies era and while the following eras were better at getting away from Earth, they were all still very entrenched on it. Don't even get me started on how companions get dropped off and picked up again on a regular occurrence. Somewhere, Tegan is screaming and I'm with her.

 

[jaime]

Took you long enough. Gods forbid Chibnall actually wrote something to your liking.


Thank you for clearly laying out why "The Time of the Doctor" doesn't work. I've never been a fan of the episode because of how messy it felt but I knew there were more issues with it than just that. Your point about Trenzalore especially feels like another case of not meeting up to the "promised" potential much like I said about "The Reality War."


Thank you. I've always despised "Hell Bent" and I've always found it baffling that there are some people who think it's great.


On this regard, I agree wholeheartedly. That was my biggest complaint about the first Davies era and while the following eras were better at getting away from Earth, they were all still very entrenched on it. Don't even get me started on how companions get dropped off and picked up again on a regular occurrence. Somewhere, Tegan is screaming and I'm with her.

I didn’t mind Power of Three too much either.
Still think his big stuff and overall era was medium to risible, and deeply annoying and broke things whilst attempting to fix what did not need fixing.
And it would have been the worst Doctor costume decision ever, but then RTD and Ncuti happened.

Two years of a tall Welshman saying ‘hold my beer’. That’s what happened.

 

[bdub76]

Almost every finale you mentioned started off strongly and ended horribly, especially "Utopia"/"The Sound of Drums" to "The Last of the Time Lords" and "Heaven Sent" to "Hell Bent."

The one exception I'm willing to concede one is Eccleston's finale and that's entirely because of him.

Both RTD and Moffat have issues sticking the landing. You see this in other shows too. Stranger Things mostly stuck the landing each season until the last two. Supernatural has some really bad season endings, and it's series finale isn't that great either.

It also went off the rails with RTD2 when it went all magical realism. No idea why it went into that space. It was fine as a science fiction show with some fantasy elements.

For me the decline started with Clara. I know folks here disagree with me, but that's the point when the storytelling started to decline for me outside of the bad finales.

Now, if you look back at classic who, there are some stinkers there too.

 

[jaime]

The mistake is thinking you need a finale.
Post-Buffy thinking, at least in terms of NuWho which RTD *really* bases everything on. (To the point that the more you think about it, the more you can see it.)

As Trek fans we may remember Best of Both Worlds, but it’s really an exception rather than a rule that finales or cliffhangers are usual. Though as time went on they became more prevalent as a means of retaining viewers (in theory).

 

[Starkers]

Of course you need a finale these days.

Can you give me an example of any show where the final episode of a season doesn't see the drama/comedy/romance ramped up? Or where, even if there isn't a cliffhanger per se, there's at least some dangling plot threads leading into the next season? The only times this won't happen is where a show is a limited series or the producers believe it's likely the last episode of a show.

Hell this isn't even a modern thing. Go back to Blakes 7 in the 70s/80s:

Series A has perhaps the most laid back finale, but it still tantalises the destruction of the Liberator with Orac's prediction.

Series B ends with Liberator about to go into battle with the alien Andromedan fleet, it's ending predating the last show of Best of Both Worlds Part 1 by about a decade)

Series C sees Liberator destroyed, Servalan dead and the crew marooned. (admittedly they thought this was going to be the last episode)

Series D Scorpio destroyed, everyone killed!

We know you hate Russell but stop turning everything into an excuse to attack him!

The finales in modern Who might be variable in quality (and personally I think there's more bad than good for all three showrunners) but on the whole the show does need them.

 

[The Wormhole]

I remember RTD explaining in The Writer's Tale about how you need to have the season building to a finale otherwise there's no point. Which, I agree with. The old days of strictly episodic fare where the finale is basically just another episode aside from maybe ending with a cliffhanger you have to wait a few months to be resolved made for some stale television viewing. Now I'm not saying everything has to be complex involved arcs, and indeed that kind of mentality brings its own problems, but having the finale be a culmination of the seasons story and character arcs is absolutely the way it should go.

 

[jaime]

Of course you need a finale these days.

Can you give me an example of any show where the final episode of a season doesn't see the drama/comedy/romance ramped up? Or where, even if there isn't a cliffhanger per se, there's at least some dangling plot threads leading into the next season? The only times this won't happen is where a show is a limited series or the producers believe it's likely the last episode of a show.

Hell this isn't even a modern thing. Go back to Blakes 7 in the 70s/80s:

Series A has perhaps the most laid back finale, but it still tantalises the destruction of the Liberator with Orac's prediction.

Series B ends with Liberator about to go into battle with the alien Andromedan fleet, it's ending predating the last show of Best of Both Worlds Part 1 by about a decade)

Series C sees Liberator destroyed, Servalan dead and the crew marooned. (admittedly they thought this was going to be the last episode)

Series D Scorpio destroyed, everyone killed!

We know you hate Russell but stop turning everything into an excuse to attack him!

The finales in modern Who might be variable in quality (and personally I think there's more bad than good for all three showrunners) but on the whole the show does need them.

How is any of that an attack on RTD?

Series one of the Chibnall era didn’t have a finale. We called it one because of where it came in the running order, and it had a returning villain, but it didn’t really amp things up anymore than a normal Who story. Its basic premise is not hugely different to say The Pirate Planet as a pretty similar example. Which wasn’t a finale. Or are we saying that in the seventies we did finales every serial or so?

I don’t think shows *need* a finale, it is just a trend in the format that a lot of shows have. And the number of times groups get frustrated by the shows ‘not sticking the landing’ genuinely makes me question if it’s a good thing.

And Buffy is a strong influence on NuWho, as stated by RTD himself, and at first it seems fairly light until you start looking at it closer.

As to modern shows… no idea. I watch very little, and most shows these days are serialised. In which case there’s always a finale, as it’s the end of a long story or adaptation.

 

[jaime]

I remember RTD explaining in The Writer's Tale about how you need to have the season building to a finale otherwise there's no point. Which, I agree with. The old days of strictly episodic fare where the finale is basically just another episode aside from maybe ending with a cliffhanger you have to wait a few months to be resolved made for some stale television viewing. Now I'm not saying everything has to be complex involved arcs, and indeed that kind of mentality brings its own problems, but having the finale be a culmination of the seasons story and character arcs is absolutely the way it should go.

I’m not sure I agree. Not anymore. Call it finale fatigue.

 

[Starkers]

I remember RTD explaining in The Writer's Tale about how you need to have the season building to a finale otherwise there's no point. Which, I agree with. The old days of strictly episodic fare where the finale is basically just another episode aside from maybe ending with a cliffhanger you have to wait a few months to be resolved made for some stale television viewing. Now I'm not saying everything has to be complex involved arcs, and indeed that kind of mentality brings its own problems, but having the finale be a culmination of the seasons story and character arcs is absolutely the way it should go.

Absolutely. For me the issue isn't the need for a dramatic finale and/or cliffhanger, its that the dramatic finale has to be so convoluted and ridiculously epic (save the Earth/Universe/Multiverse etc)

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Absolutely. For me the issue isn't the need for a dramatic finale and/or cliffhanger, its that the dramatic finale has to be so convoluted and ridiculously epic (save the Earth/Universe/Multiverse etc)

Precisely my point.

Davies has a lot of great ideas but my issue has always been with the execution of those ideas, particularly how resolves them...which leads to over-the-top finales, ad nauseum.

 

[Starkers]

Precisely my point.

Davies has a lot of great ideas but my issue has always been with the execution of those ideas, particularly how resolves them...which leads to over-the-top finales, ad nauseum.

There's a reason Androzani is one of the best regeneration episodes, and it shows how something can be epic and heartbreaking, even if all the Doctor is doing is risking it all to save a single life.

 

[jaime]

There's a reason Androzani is one of the best regeneration episodes, and it shows how something can be epic and heartbreaking, even if all the Doctor is doing is risking it all to save a single life.

But the weird thing by modern standards is — that wasn’t a season finale. Davisons Swansong in the lead yes, but the finale is The Twin Dilemma.

Which admittedly isn’t a shiny example xD

But consider this… Lis Sladen’s swansong is Hand of Fear. A normal serial, bar her being dropped off in not-Croydon. The next, Deadly Assassin, has all the hallmarks of what we now associate with a ‘finale’ and yet… isn’t one. Because then we get Face of Evil and pick up our new companion, in a story that relies in part on an offscreen adventure of sorts.
Which also is not the finale. (Talons)

Now, yes, it’s back when finale writing was not common place, but would season 14 be considered lacking a special something because we didn’t threaten the universe when Magnus Greel was terrorising Victorian London?

Admittedly, there’s a mid season break for Christmas and the New Year of about six weeks, probably a strike or sporting event involved too, so you could argue DA was still a finale of sorts. Not sure it was planned as such though.

 

[jaime]

Absolutely. For me the issue isn't the need for a dramatic finale and/or cliffhanger, its that the dramatic finale has to be so convoluted and ridiculously epic (save the Earth/Universe/Multiverse etc)

There's a reason Androzani is one of the best regeneration episodes, and it shows how something can be epic and heartbreaking, even if all the Doctor is doing is risking it all to save a single life.

I think this why the Hybrid stuff didn’t land well.
People didn’t really get that it was a low stakes (just one life) finale wearing the clothes of Epic.