Russell T. Davies Returns to Doctor Who as New Showrunner

[DigificWriter]

There's no difference between the Forgotten/Fugitive Doctor's TARDIS and the TARDIS stolen by the "First" Doctor (Hartnell), and @Allyn Gibson just laid out a plausible explanation for how and why the Forgotten/Fugitive Doctor's TARDIS could appear as a TARDIS before its Chameleon Circuit supposedly "broke" and it took that form for the "first" time before/during the events of An Unearthly Child.

 

[jaime]

There's no difference between the Forgotten/Fugitive Doctor's TARDIS and the TARDIS stolen by the "First" Doctor (Hartnell), and @Allyn Gibson just laid out a plausible explanation for how and why the Forgotten/Fugitive Doctor's TARDIS could appear as a TARDIS before its Chameleon Circuit supposedly "broke" and it took that form for the "first" time before/during the events of An Unearthly Child.

As long as we don’t count it working properly. And all the other differences. And the explanation is easily undone by pointing out the Tardis should have avoided the danger of breaking the first law of time by having the Doctor cross their own time stream, or the many times the Master and the Doctor are in the same place and yet their Tardis’ don’t look like each other.
There’s also the fact that it is the implication that it is the *same* Tardis, which makes it even more likely that it should have avoided the area like the plague, and if it did not, should not have matched exteriors to avoid confusion.
(Though there is a get out clause for that to an extent.)
I mean… it’s pretty awful camouflage if we assume Chef!Doctor turned up in about what… 2012? And wasn’t already broken.

I mean here we are, doing that fan thing of coming up with plausible sounding explanations for bad writing/production that exists purely for one shock and awe visual moment. Which *would be fine* if the season finale hadn’t fecked things up with it’s revelation.
(A problem The Flux also suffers from, because apparently Unit kept a version of the Tardis in the back room for bloody ever, Kate Stewart somehow keeping it in her garage I suppose — you know, after Unit went bosoms skywards off camera for the sake of a Brexit joke — when there were a number of times that previous incarnations, not least the third, could really have done with it. There’s probably a great time machine impound next to the black archive just full of all the ones the Master parked up and lost over the years. Possibly even the Monk’s.)

It’s just a snarled mess of nonsense. And not in the nice ‘well, it mostly hangs together’ way we usually get. It makes UNIT dating look like something organised.

 

[Mr Awe]

Moffat didn't write about that Doctor, at least not when he became showrunner. Hell, Andrew Cartmel didn’t want a show about that Doctor either.

Whatever. To me it was clearly the same character.

 

[Mr Awe]

Honestly, I think RTD might genuinely like the Timeless Child idea, or at least the idea of pre-Hartnell Doctors being possible. After spending an entire decade saying he's done with Doctor Who, including refusing a "dump truck full of cash" that was apparently offered to keep him around when he first announced his departure, an invitation from Moffat to return and write an episode each year Moffat was in charge and even publishing a book specifically to reinforce the fact that he's done, I think the story possibilities the Timeless Child/pre-Hartnell Doctors offer might have been the thing that made him decide to come back.

I'd have to disagree with it being specifically the pre-Hartnell that brought him back. If that was that important to him, he'd have done it himself. He didn't need to have Chibnall do that for him.

No, I'm fairly certain it was the lure of him running his own multiverse empire that did it. He's in total charge of that multiverse and he's going to take advantage of that. Being less shackled by the BBC because it's an independent production probably helped too. Although, I'm sure there are still some restrictions because the BBC owns the IP. But, relatively speaking, he's got a free hand.

To be sure, it sounds like RTD likes the idea of pre-Hartnell Doctors very much, so it's not going away . But I don't think it was the deciding factor for him returning.

 

[Haggis and tatties]

As long as we don’t count it working properly. And all the other differences. And the explanation is easily undone by pointing out the Tardis should have avoided the danger of breaking the first law of time by having the Doctor cross their own time stream, or the many times the Master and the Doctor are in the same place and yet their Tardis’ don’t look like each other.
There’s also the fact that it is the implication that it is the *same* Tardis, which makes it even more likely that it should have avoided the area like the plague, and if it did not, should not have matched exteriors to avoid confusion.
(Though there is a get out clause for that to an extent.)
I mean… it’s pretty awful camouflage if we assume Chef!Doctor turned up in about what… 2012? And wasn’t already broken.

I mean here we are, doing that fan thing of coming up with plausible sounding explanations for bad writing/production that exists purely for one shock and awe visual moment. Which *would be fine* if the season finale hadn’t fecked things up with it’s revelation.
(A problem The Flux also suffers from, because apparently Unit kept a version of the Tardis in the back room for bloody ever, Kate Stewart somehow keeping it in her garage I suppose — you know, after Unit went bosoms skywards off camera for the sake of a Brexit joke — when there were a number of times that previous incarnations, not least the third, could really have done with it. There’s probably a great time machine impound next to the black archive just full of all the ones the Master parked up and lost over the years. Possibly even the Monk’s.)

It’s just a snarled mess of nonsense. And not in the nice ‘well, it mostly hangs together’ way we usually get. It makes UNIT dating look like something organised.

We can only count ourselves lucky Chibnall is going before he gets the idea to go back and Lucas style alter classics like The Three Doctors with digitally added dialogue stating they only have enough power to transfer two out of the 13 doctors past regenerations, or The 25th anni five doctors were they cgi a bigger board with extra segments for the 13 stuck in a timeloop pre Hartnell doctors. Lol

 

[Starkers]

Look, I'm not the greatest fan of the Timless Child, but it happened and RTD isn't going to unhappen it.

In many ways TTC hardly matters. The Doctor is aware that she exited before the Hartnell incarnation, but she has no real recollection of that time aside from the few pieces of information she's garnered. Her memory was wiped so as far as she ever knew she's 13th incarnation of the Doctor, that's her personality, she is the person she is now because of her lives Hartnell to Whittaker, sure maybe there's a little Martin in there now, but our Doctor is still pretty much the same person they ever were.

RTD, and future showrunners, can now keep TTC in a box and, every five or ten years maybe, they can open the box and have the Doctor encounter another pre-Hartnell version, or visit a world that perhaps another version of the Doctor visited, or not, I'm sure Big Finish will love inventing pre-Hartnell Doctors if the BBC don't.

 

[The Wormhole]

RTD, and future showrunners, can now keep TTC in a box and, every five or ten years maybe, they can open the box and have the Doctor encounter another pre-Hartnell version,

It's definitely a handy way to get big name celebrities to appear in anniversary specials as previously unknown Doctors.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

It's definitely a handy way to get big name celebrities to appear in anniversary specials as previously unknown Doctors.

Which is why I don't think Big Finish will get a chance to play in that particular sandbox anytime soon...

...but I would love to be wrong.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

It's definitely a handy way to get big name celebrities to appear in anniversary specials as previously unknown Doctors.

I despise that idea in all its forms.

 

[CuriousCaitian]

Random thought that this conversation has just caused to pop into my head and I know it's gonna open a pretty sizeable can of worms but I'm a cat and curiosity cannot be denied even if it kills me: how would all these new, hitherto unknown pre-Hartnell Doctors be identified?

By minus numbers? Minus 1st, minus 2nd...

By letters? A Doctor, B Doctor, C Doctor...

Prefixes ala the War Doctor? Peace Doctor. Quiet Doctor. Stoner Hippie Doctor. Which Doctor Am I Again Doctor.

Ideas?

 

[DigificWriter]

I'm personally identifying the pre-Hartnell regenerations that we know about by the following means:
* I'm using the term "Timeless Children" for the Doctor's very first incarnation and all of the regenerations that Tecteun forced upon them (the Doctor)

* I'm using the term "Morbius Doctors" for the eight pre-Hartnell incarnations of the Doctor that Morbius drew out of the Doctor's subconscious during their mindbending battle

* I'm using the terms "Forgotten Doctor" or "Fugitive Doctor" for the Division-employed incarnation of the Doctor as brought to life by Jo Martin

 

[Mr Awe]

Look, I'm not the greatest fan of the Timless Child, but it happened and RTD isn't going to unhappen it.

In many ways TTC hardly matters. The Doctor is aware that she exited before the Hartnell incarnation, but she has no real recollection of that time aside from the few pieces of information she's garnered.

Agreed that RTD won't undo it. But there does seem to be a huge functional change that it creates. Unless I'm misunderstanding the situation, the Doctor is immortal. S/he didn't realize this before, but s/he cannot die because s/he's the Timeless Child. This fact seems to have been overlooked.

However, I don't think they'll go that route story wise. It kills the jeopardy. Hopefully, the TC thing is mostly kept hidden away.

RTD, and future showrunners, can now keep TTC in a box and, every five or ten years maybe, they can open the box and have the Doctor encounter another pre-Hartnell version, or visit a world that perhaps another version of the Doctor visited, or not, I'm sure Big Finish will love inventing pre-Hartnell Doctors if the BBC don't.

I think this part of the Timeless Child will be irresistible to RTD. Look, here's a major star as the Doctor in a one off special!

Huge ratings. And they don't really even need to say how it fits in. It's one of the many hidden Doctors. It's a DW story with no baggage for new viewers. It's a completely one-off story starring a major celebrity that doesn't need to be connected to any ongoing storylines.

I don't like the idea, but it's perfect for ratings grabbing specials.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Random thought that this conversation has just caused to pop into my head and I know it's gonna open a pretty sizeable can of worms but I'm a cat and curiosity cannot be denied even if it kills me: how would all these new, hitherto unknown pre-Hartnell Doctors be identified?

By minus numbers? Minus 1st, minus 2nd...

By letters? A Doctor, B Doctor, C Doctor...

Prefixes ala the War Doctor? Peace Doctor. Quiet Doctor. Stoner Hippie Doctor. Which Doctor Am I Again Doctor.

Ideas?

I imagine it'll be prefixes considering Jo Martin's Doctor is commonly referred to as The Fugitive Doctor by fans at this point.

Wikipedia reminds me that she was officially credited as "Fugitive Doctor" in "Once, Upon Time" after only being credited as "The Doctor" in "Fugitive of the Judoon" and "The Timeless Children."

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Considering the reaction to the Timeless Child reveal from the fans I think they'd have to be very careful what other Doctors they decide to introduce. Personally I've reached my limit of secret Doctors and I don't want to see another one even if they are played by Robert Downey Jr.

 

[Starkers]

Agreed that RTD won't undo it. But there does seem to be a huge functional change that it creates. Unless I'm misunderstanding the situation, the Doctor is immortal. S/he didn't realize this before, but s/he cannot die because s/he's the Timeless Child. This fact seems to have been overlooked.

However, I don't think they'll go that route story wise. It kills the jeopardy. Hopefully, the TC thing is mostly kept hidden away.

Of course she can still die. Even when the Doctor thought they were a regular Timelord there were circumstances where regeneration wouldn't be possible. Could the Doctor survive being at ground zero of a nuclear explosion for example? It's hard for every cell in your body to renew when every cell has been vaporised. I did once consider a horrific scenario where the Doctor has to walk out of some horribly irradiated zone and basically has to go through dozens of regenerations to do so!

And have we ever thought the Doctor could die? No exactly conducive to an ongoing series, so there's no less jeopardy than there ever was IMO.

 

[Starkers]

Considering the reaction to the Timeless Child reveal from the fans I think they'd have to be very careful what other Doctors they decide to introduce. Personally I've reached my limit of secret Doctors and I don't want to see another one even if they are played by Robert Downey Jr.

I think it's a trick you'd have to pull very irregularly. We've had two secret Doctors in the last ten years I guess and I wouldn't want anymore than that. The upside is Jo Martin can always come back, just a shame John Hurt can't

 

[DigificWriter]

Considering the reaction to the Timeless Child reveal from the fans I think they'd have to be very careful what other Doctors they decide to introduce. Personally I've reached my limit of secret Doctors and I don't want to see another one even if they are played by Robert Downey Jr.

Fan opinions mean nothing.

RTD and future Showrunners will do what they want to do, and the fandom can either accept those decisions or reject them.

 

[The Knappos]

"It brought Rory back, it can bring them back too. You just remember them , and they'll be there".

If simply flying the Pandorica into the exploding TARDIS (not the crack, did you even WATCH the ep?) would bring Amy's parents back, why would he need to tell her that?

I'd completely forgotten that line. Thanks for the reminder! I must be due a Pandorica/Big Bang rewatch.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Maybe Martin just throws herself into the looms… xD

Believe me, I've spent time figuring out how Patience fits into the Timeless Child backstory.

I keep going back to what I was thinking about yesterday -- that the TARDIS knows more about the Doctor in An Unearthly Child than the Doctor does -- and I had an interesting insight, which meshes quite well with the TARDIS's story in Time Lord Victorious.

What if, when the TARDIS reverted to the Police Box form and refused to change, she was trying to get the Doctor to remember who he was? She gets stuck as a Police Box, she kidnaps Ian and Barbara and doesn't take them home, and the Doctor, who had been a tourist, is forced by the TARDIS into situations where he has to be an actor in the events, until over a series of adventures -- The Sensorites is commonly cited as the point where the first Doctor really starts acting Doctor-ish -- really starts to act like the person the TARDIS remembers he had been.

In other words, the Police Box is the TARDIS staging an Intervention for the Doctor.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Believe me, I've spent time figuring out how Patience fits into the Timeless Child backstory.

I keep going back to what I was thinking about yesterday -- that the TARDIS knows more about the Doctor in An Unearthly Child than the Doctor does -- and I had an interesting insight, which meshes quite well with the TARDIS's story in Time Lord Victorious.

What if, when the TARDIS reverted to the Police Box form and refused to change, she was trying to get the Doctor to remember who he was? She gets stuck as a Police Box, she kidnaps Ian and Barbara and doesn't take them home, and the Doctor, who had been a tourist, is forced by the TARDIS into situations where he has to be an actor in the events, until over a series of adventures -- The Sensorites is commonly cited as the point where the first Doctor really starts acting Doctor-ish -- really starts to act like the person the TARDIS remembers he had been.

In other words, the Police Box is the TARDIS staging an Intervention for the Doctor.

I like that idea a lot. Goes well with the TARDIS always taking The Doctor where she needs to go (instead of where she wants to go), an idea many of us held for years before it was explicitly stated in "The Doctor's Wife." I wouldn't be surprised if the same happens with this idea.