Rufus Wrainwright Hates Toronto

[Canadave]

Anyway, compare the TTC to any big city in NA and its completely broken. Even OCTranspo works better, without managing to use a rail system other than that dinky little train that runs through Carleton.

Seriously? OC is one of the most broken and mismanaged transit systems in the country. A reliance on slow, inefficient and overcrowded buses that run on routes which are far too long to be effective (the 95, the 85, the 2, the 14, the 5, etc.) and terrible service late in the evening and on Sundays. The TTC is positively amazing in comparison, and it's still one of the top five systems in North America. That's reflected in the fact that the ridership is number 2 in North America.

The subways are fast and efficient, if not as extensive as they could be, and the bus and streetcar networks cover a very large part of the city. It's a great system and doesn't deserve the crap I've seen some people level at it.

As to your other points, I think Toronto is a great city. I love Ottawa, but it really does pale in comparison... Toronto is incredibly diverse and exciting, with a great mix of cultures. Montreal gives it a run for its money, sure, but Toronto is still my favourite city in Canada.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

Anyway, compare the TTC to any big city in NA and its completely broken. Even OCTranspo works better, without managing to use a rail system other than that dinky little train that runs through Carleton.

Seriously? OC is one of the most broken and mismanaged transit systems in the country. A reliance on slow, inefficient and overcrowded buses that run on routes which are far too long to be effective (the 95, the 85, the 2, the 14, the 5, etc.) and terrible service late in the evening and on Sundays. The TTC is positively amazing in comparison, and it's still one of the top five systems in North America. That's reflected in the fact that the ridership is number 2 in North America.

The subways are fast and efficient, if not as extensive as they could be, and the bus and streetcar networks cover a very large part of the city. It's a great system and doesn't deserve the crap I've seen some people level at it.

As to your other points, I think Toronto is a great city. I love Ottawa, but it really does pale in comparison... Toronto is incredibly diverse and exciting, with a great mix of cultures. Montreal gives it a run for its money, sure, but Toronto is still my favorite city in Canada.

And Ottawa is the Nation's Capital! If Washington D.C. can have a subway system, so should Ottawa.

What Ottawa should also have are lines of streetcars/LRC's instead, that will get citizens from place to place a lot better than just buses and that dinky trolley. A shame to hear about this, especially since Ottawa gets a lot of money and doesn't look shabby, from what I've heard.

 

[firehawk12]

Don't get me wrong. I'm in Guelph right now, and I wouldn't mind living in Toronto. I just missed a TSO Star Trek themed concert AND a free video game concert and it pisses me off to no end.

I don't want to get into the minutiae, but OC Transpo runs on time during rush hour which just doesn't happen in Toronto, even with the new law that forces drivers to yield to buses. This is why you see buses and streetcars piled up in one direction and absent for half an hour in the other direction. Between 11 to 2 and after 9pm, yeah, the TTC is great, but any time outside those hours... good luck.
But, sure, it has problems. I used to take the 111 but was annoyed that they only ran one bus during the student rush. It made absolutely no sense. But overall, I think I was just happier with the service. The schedule actually means something at each stop and I could get anywhere I wanted to go.

As for why Ottawa doesn't have a subway system, it's just too small. I think the population is 600k? Considering the stupid Sheppard line in Toronto cost a billion and doesn't even go anywhere, I can't imagine something like that would be sustainable in Ottawa and when it comes to public transportation, very few people want to foot the bill. I don't know the history there, but it seems like using the money to develop bus only streets and highways makes so much more sense. It's cheaper and if you live on or close to that line, you can get anywhere quickly. It took me less than an hour to get from Carleton to the Avation museum using the bus and I was really impressed.

As for the Island airport, killing the bridge effectively killed the business. Maybe I'm just too inner city to care, but it feels like a bunch of rich people who live on the waterfront and island whining about another bunch of rich people who want to fly into downtown Toronto instead of the 'Saug. Jesus christ, it's easier to get from the Ottawa airport to downtown Ottawa using the bus than it is to get to downtown Toronto from Pearson, and I'm sorry, but that's just wrong.

But anyway, I can see why someone would say something like "Montreal is better than Toronto". Maybe it's totally a "grass is greener" thing and maybe people in Montreal hate where THEY live, I dunno.

 

[Canadave]

Don't get me wrong. I'm in Guelph right now, and I wouldn't mind living in Toronto. I just missed a TSO Star Trek themed concert AND a free video game concert and it pisses me off to no end.

I don't want to get into the minutiae, but OC Transpo runs on time during rush hour which just doesn't happen in Toronto, even with the new law that forces drivers to yield to buses. This is why you see buses and streetcars piled up in one direction and absent for half an hour in the other direction. Between 11 to 2 and after 9pm, yeah, the TTC is great, but any time outside those hours... good luck.
But, sure, it has problems. I used to take the 111 but was annoyed that they only ran one bus during the student rush. It made absolutely no sense. But overall, I think I was just happier with the service. The schedule actually means something at each stop and I could get anywhere I wanted to go.

Slater Street, rush hour:

'Nuff said, really...

And I have to disagree about schedules. I used to take the 2 all the time, and I learned very quickly to completely disregard anything written on the schedule, no matter the time of day. It wasn't uncommon to wait 25 minutes for a bus that should have been there in five, only to have it come in a cluster of three bunched-up buses.

As for why Ottawa doesn't have a subway system, it's just too small. I think the population is 600k? Considering the stupid Sheppard line in Toronto cost a billion and doesn't even go anywhere, I can't imagine something like that would be sustainable in Ottawa and when it comes to public transportation, very few people want to foot the bill. I don't know the history there, but it seems like using the money to develop bus only streets and highways makes so much more sense. It's cheaper and if you live on or close to that line, you can get anywhere quickly. It took me less than an hour to get from Carleton to the Avation museum using the bus and I was really impressed.

1.1 million people in the metro area, 850,000 in Ottawa itself, which is more than large enough to sustain a metro system. Copenhagen, Porto Alegre, Tyne and Wear and Oslo are all about the same size or smaller, and they all have a rapid transit system. No, the main reason Ottawa doesn't have any significant rail transit is political; the idea of the Transitway dates from the 70s, when cheap and economical were the watchwords for urban planning. Unfortunately, the idea stuck around for well over 20 years and we're stuck with a slow and outdated system. Thankfully, it looks like we're going to be getting significant chunks of the Transitway converted to rail, finally, including a subway downtown which should mostly fix the RT bottleneck in the core.

 

[M'Sharak]

I have no idea who he is... but he isn't much wrong. It's a cheap version of NYC... (Dundas Square being a cheap Times Square, etc) and the only thing that makes it bearable is the fact that every other city west of Toronto is pretty much blah compared to it. Which is why he pulls the "Montreal is better" card, and let's face it... it really is.

It's probably significant that Rufus spent a good part of his childhood in Montreal, too; there may even be some sort of local bias against Toronto, but that's just guessing.

 

[Canadave]

I have no idea who he is... but he isn't much wrong. It's a cheap version of NYC... (Dundas Square being a cheap Times Square, etc) and the only thing that makes it bearable is the fact that every other city west of Toronto is pretty much blah compared to it. Which is why he pulls the "Montreal is better" card, and let's face it... it really is.

It's probably significant that Rufus spent a good part of his childhood in Montreal, too; there may even be some sort of local bias against Toronto, but that's just guessing.

No offense, but it's pretty obvious you're not Canadian!

 

[Seven of eleven]

Ottawa's my kind of town. Lots of nature and culture while having something of a quiet (though yes, some would say boring) way of life. But yeah, if you plan on taking the bus during the morning and evening commute, especially if you work in the centre near Albert and Slater... forget about it. Regardless, it's still better than Toronto. For you see...

I hate the SkyDome and the CN Tower too;
I hate Nathan Philips Square and the Ontario Zoo!
The rent's too high,
The air's unclean,
The beaches are dirty,
And the people are mean!
And the women are big and the men are dumb
And the children are loopy 'cause they live in a slum!
The water is polluted and the mayor's a dork!
They dress real bad and they think they're New York
In Toronto, Ontario-o-o!

 

[firehawk12]

Honestly, I think having dedicated buslanes is more forward thinking that having shared street lanes that clog up streetcars.
Yeah, downtown Ottawa can get stupid, but then again, those are almost all different buses. In Toronto, it's not uncommon to see 3 or 4 buses on the same route all jammed up together, which makes them absolutely useless.

Even though I wish Toronto had a huge subway system, I'm convinced dedicated light rail is probably the way to go but that's never going to happen in Toronto, when the TTC can barely afford to run itself as it is and when the provincial government is wasting money on a subway project to York University.

 

[Canadave]

Honestly, I think having dedicated buslanes is more forward thinking that having shared street lanes that clog up streetcars.
Yeah, downtown Ottawa can get stupid, but then again, those are almost all different buses. In Toronto, it's not uncommon to see 3 or 4 buses on the same route all jammed up together, which makes them absolutely useless.

I see that happen on a fairly regular basis, actually. The only routes were it doesn't happen are the ones with terrible frequencies, like every-half hour or hour.

The other thing with a bus-only system is that it's pretty inefficient. You need to use more vehicles to move less people, and buses have a higher overhead cost. I just saw a report that said that the City of Ottawa loses $400,000 for every cent that gas prices rise per litre. Sure rail-transit has energy costs associated with it, but they're a lot lower.

 

[M'Sharak]

I have no idea who he is... but he isn't much wrong. It's a cheap version of NYC... (Dundas Square being a cheap Times Square, etc) and the only thing that makes it bearable is the fact that every other city west of Toronto is pretty much blah compared to it. Which is why he pulls the "Montreal is better" card, and let's face it... it really is.

It's probably significant that Rufus spent a good part of his childhood in Montreal, too; there may even be some sort of local bias against Toronto, but that's just guessing.

No offense, but it's pretty obvious you're not Canadian!

Well, that's not any great secret. I've been near Canada once or twice, though.

 

[Kryton]

If I rolled downhill (or is it UPhill?) for about 45 minutes, I'd be IN Canada! :LOL:

 

[firehawk12]

Honestly, I think having dedicated buslanes is more forward thinking that having shared street lanes that clog up streetcars.
Yeah, downtown Ottawa can get stupid, but then again, those are almost all different buses. In Toronto, it's not uncommon to see 3 or 4 buses on the same route all jammed up together, which makes them absolutely useless.

I see that happen on a fairly regular basis, actually. The only routes were it doesn't happen are the ones with terrible frequencies, like every-half hour or hour.

The other thing with a bus-only system is that it's pretty inefficient. You need to use more vehicles to move less people, and buses have a higher overhead cost. I just saw a report that said that the City of Ottawa loses $400,000 for every cent that gas prices rise per litre. Sure rail-transit has energy costs associated with it, but they're a lot lower.

Yep, I agree. Although, the dependence on electricity can be a negative - blackouts and brownouts in Toronto can basically paralyse the system.

Of course, the biggest cost is the infrastructure and maintanance, which can be as much or more than running buses.

I don't know. My only experience with a dedicated streetcar line is Spadina. Clearly, it was an improvement over the constant buses, but the system still breaks down during rush hour, with 5 cars lining up to enter Spadina station at many times during the day... and it's gotten to the point where they basically hired someone to sit at Spadina and Dundas to let people into the doors at the back. Somehow, they still haven't been able to manage volume or find a way to keep the cars moving to avoid traffic jams... and I don't know what the solution to that problem should be.

 

[smeos]

Hated it.

Then again, I hate pretty much all big cities.

Everyone that I've ever met from Toronto has been a complete and utter douche bag that has treated me like I'm an idiot because I came from a small town.

 

[Canadave]

[
I don't know. My only experience with a dedicated streetcar line is Spadina. Clearly, it was an improvement over the constant buses, but the system still breaks down during rush hour, with 5 cars lining up to enter Spadina station at many times during the day... and it's gotten to the point where they basically hired someone to sit at Spadina and Dundas to let people into the doors at the back. Somehow, they still haven't been able to manage volume or find a way to keep the cars moving to avoid traffic jams... and I don't know what the solution to that problem should be.

The Spadina car is a great idea that's hurt by the fact that the city refuses to turn on the system that will give the streetcars priority at stoplights. That's right, the system to make all the cars almost completely avoid red lights exists and is in-place, but the city doesn't want to inconvenience motorists. More than a little silly, if you ask me.

As for overhead costs, I don't know if you saw or not, but the City of Ottawa recently went over several RT plans, and the estimated running costs of the bus-only option was a fair bit higher than the rail-based options (~$75-100 million more a year, as I recall).

 

[firehawk12]

To be honest, I don't pay attention to any municipal stuff anymore. I remember when I was there they were thinking of closing that 5 station rail line though, so I got the impression that money was tight. (And there was almost a strike).

Also, yeah, it's a problem that the streetcars basically have to stop at every intersection and that forces the congestion. I didn't know that there was a system in place to handle that though... figures that the city won't use it. But then again, it just shows more incompetence at the city government. Yet another example of Toronto's crappiness.

 

[Seven of eleven]

The problem is mostly with the centre of the city. Buses have their own transitways that allow quick travel from locations on or near them but when they have to go through streets like Rideau, Albert, Elgin and Bank, it slows to a crawl. And if you have to go fom one part of the town to another, chances are that you'll have to through that centremass.

 

[firehawk12]

That's true. To be honest though, even during the rush I've had almost perfect experiences with OC Transpo in the short time I've used it... mostly during my Rogers Video "tour" to try to hit every story in Ottawa and Napean.
Maybe it was because I lived in Napean and no one else bothers going down that way, I dunno.

 

[Mooch]

I like Toronto well enough as a city I suppose, but the fact that the municipal government fails at basically any worthwhile project they've ever attempted in recent memory bugs me to no end. Except the Sheppard subway line, and it's useless. If the York subway extension and waterfront projects (any of them!) get completed before I retire, I'll be pleasantly surprised (I'm 26).