RPG Recruitment Thread

Discussion in 'Trek Gaming' started by daedalus5, Mar 24, 2005.

  1. pclark456

    pclark456 Ensign Newbie

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2011
    Location:
    Carbondale
    The Delta Quadrant is Calling
    [​IMG]

    Far in the distant unknown lies a centuries old mystery; what does the Severus Asteroid Belt orbit? Come join the USS Shepherd-Proud member of Bravo Fleet's Task Force 38, as they discover this any many other secrets the Delta Quadrant holds.

    We're a new Play-by-Nova simm directed by an experienced CO and are looking for every position to be filled. If you are interested visit the site today!
     
  2. BlackWolf

    BlackWolf Cadet Newbie

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2016
    The Klingon Empire has fallen and Starfleet vessels at the borders have been attacked and some even captured by the self-proclaimed Sovereignty of Kahless as their new prizes. We seek new brave Commanding officers to help us defend our borders!
     
  3. Steve Claypole

    Steve Claypole Cadet Newbie

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2016
    Is this a hint as you want my ship to join BF TF93??? Lol
     
  4. BlackWolf

    BlackWolf Cadet Newbie

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2016
    If you feel that your ship is willing to defend our borders from the brute Gorn and war lusted Klingons. I can't stop you :angel:
     
  5. Penta

    Penta Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2008
    (On a black background, white text is displayed: "http://jerusalem.rpgs-r.us/ - USS Jerusalem JOIN TODAY" before fading to show a Starfleet officer, a human male with brown hair and hazel eyes, wearing command red with the rank pips of a Captain.)

    I'm Captain John Williams, CO of the USS Jerusalem. I've got an offer for you.

    (The image cuts to show an Ascension-class carrier in space, with Andor in the background as an ominous-sounding classical piece that's hard to identify plays, before the CO's voice returns in voiceover, the music continuing in the background)

    In 2392, the Romulan Star Empire is still a threat. While the Romulans are distracted by internal strife, in our setting the star of the Romulan home system has not gone supernova. At the same time, the alliance with the Klingons is as it has always been since the end of the Dominion War - more of a cold peace, as the eyes of Klingon warriors seek for glory and honor on the intergalactic stage.

    (The music turns slightly more positive-sounding now, as the voiceover continues)

    It was into this environment that the USS Jerusalem, an Ascension-class Carrier, has been commissioned and launched on her shakedown cruise. While the rest of Starfleet explores, seeks out new life and new civilizations...We'll be doing a lot more than just minding the home front. Like what?

    (The music shifts to an identifiable piece now - "Hearts of Oak" in an orchestral version - as the scene changes to Commander Williams, now in dress uniform, inspecting foreign troops on some unidentifiable world in what's clearly an arrival ceremony)

    A lot more than showing the flag and gunboat diplomacy.

    (The music cuts to a pumping (yet unidentifiable) rock selection, as the image onscreen changes to one of starfighters in combat against what appear to be pirate vessels.)

    Anti-piracy actions, for instance.

    (The music continues as the scene shifts to Marines fighting furiously through an unknown ship's corridors, and in combat on the ground of some planet somewhere.)

    Surgical strikes, led both by our three starfighter wings and our company of Marine infantry.

    (The scene cuts to ship to ship combat, with scenes of phasers and torpedoes...and exploding consoles and smoke and fire)

    Fleet actions.

    (The scene cuts to Starfleet crewmembers hunched over consoles in a darkened room, then to a Starfleet interrogator staring down a Romulan.)

    Intelligence gathering and reconnaissance. Yes, even at 1400 meters long, 522 meters wide, and 166.5 meters tall, the Jerusalem can still do a good job of recon without being noticed. And our facilities for gathering signals and electronic intelligence are second to none.

    (The scene cuts to Starfleet crewmembers and Marines distributing relief packages, and medical personnel working on wounded civilians.)

    Relief missions.

    (The scene finally returns to a view of the Jerusalem over Andor, as the music fades out.)

    There are those who run towards the sounds of chaos. Towards the sounds of danger. Are you among them?

    (The video fades to black, as a ship's bell can be heard striking eight bells. Then, white text fades in: "HTTP://Jerusalem.rpgs-r.us/ - USS Jerusalem - Join today" before all fades to black for a final time.)
    ---

    Positions being sought include:

    Chief Engineering Officer
    Chief Combat Operations Officer (Tactical, but without Security responsibilities and with more coordination responsibilities)
    Chief Intelligence Officer
    Chief Operations Officer

    plus, a full complement of junior officer and enlisted positions are available (though we'd like to fill senior positions first).

    We've currently just finished our shakedown cruise (still wrapping up some backposts) and are letting the crew do some exploration of our home port, Starbase 39-Sierra, before beginning our next mission, "Exercise Lion Passant".

    Jerusalem is an 18+ sim, but that's mostly to allow us the freedom to explore the darker sides of our potential missions (ie to explore violence and foul language, not sex). We're designed as something different from the average Trek RPG, best described as "Trek, technothrillers, sea novels (like the Aubrey/Maturin series of Patrick O'Brian), spy novels, and a mix of classic and modern sci-fi, all thrown into a blender and mixed."

    Go to http://jerusalem.rpgs-r.us and take a look today for more details, including a field by field character generation guide for the perplexed (or even those just looking for a cheat sheet). Then, if you're interested, contact the CO with an email to USSJerusalem@gmail.com - tell me who you are, introduce yourself, and include a quick sketch (maybe a few sentences) describing the character concept you have in mind. I'll get back to you as soon as possible and we can begin the process of drawing up a character together that you'd like to play (and that fits the sim).
     
  6. 22639

    22639 Ensign Newbie

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2016
    USS ECLIPSE - Flagship of the Ronin Fleet's Task Force 1

    We are currently in need of Intelligence Officers, Strategic Operations Officer (especially a Chief), an Operations chief and officers, Diplomats, and an Assistant Chief Medical Officer. We also have positions available for a full compliment of Marines to man our Marine starship, the USS Chesty Puller.

    Join us at http://futureadventures.underground-rpgs.ca/index.php/sim/index

    [​IMG]
     
  7. BlackWolf

    BlackWolf Cadet Newbie

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2016
    [​IMG]
    (From left to right: Captain Takato, Captain Demets and Captain Ivanovich)

    Good day,

    Today I have an update on the events that are happening at the borders. However this message is not related towards any of the Gorn conflict that we are currently experiencing. This news is to report that the fear that most already had in the civilian areas became true. The Klingon Empire has collapse into a state of civil war and are now weaken by the new formed state named Sovereignty of Kahless. We have no certain data on the matter, only that we can confirm a shift of power.

    This also concludes the sad news that the Sovereignty of Kahless has attacked various Starfleet vessels among borders and captured the amount of crew as their own prisoners. So far we have not been able to conclude any diplomatic demands or connection with this state. For now we keep trying and strengthen our borders.

    These casualties so far:
    • Captain Demets of the USS Washington (Prisoner)
    • Captain Takato of the USS Tornado (Prisoner)
    • Captain Ivanovich of the USS Tyson (Prisoner)
    • USS Tesla (Crew Captured, Ship destroyed)
    • USS Phobos (Crew Captured, Ship destroyed)
    We are still collecting the information and will supply this to you as soon as possible. Please keep this line in check for future announcements regarding the situation of Beta Quadrant operations.

    --
    Rear Admiral Anin
    Task Force Commanding Officer
    Task Force 93, Bravo Fleet

    Sign up today!
     
  8. Robert T Hawke

    Robert T Hawke Ensign Newbie

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2013
    [​IMG]

    Space, the final frontier. Beaten. Wounded. Far from home. Enemies may surround us and watch our every move, but o
    ur mission has always been to explore the boundless heavens, to seek out new worlds, new life, new ideas, and to forge peace wherever we go.

    We are Starfleet! Join us! The future depends on you!

    Excelsior is a Star Trek themed role playing game. It is our aim to create an enjoyable and stimulating environment for us to be a community of collaborative writers crafting an immersive and compelling story together. You can become a part of that story right now!

    We are currently on-boarding new officers! No better time to join than right now!
    Chief Engineering Officer
    Chief Flight Control Officer
    Chief Intelligence Officer
    Chief Medical Officer
    Chief Operations Officer
    Chief Science Officer
    Ship's Counselor (please e-mail to discuss this position)
    As well as junior officer positions, visit our website and find your place among our crew!

    http://www.ussexcelsior.net
    "No matter where you go, there you are."
     
  9. KenLawe

    KenLawe Cadet Newbie

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2016
    The galaxy is a wide, wide place full of a variety of characters.

    Some of them are on the run. Those that run from justice find themselves hunted by the crew of the Molon Labe.

    Tasked as a subsection of Starfleet Security, the Molon Labe is primarily a fugitive retrieval unit. Their job is track down those who decided to flee into the wide galaxy rather than face the consequences of the justice system. They are escapees from lawful detention. They are the hardened criminals who aren't willing to go back.

    The crew of the Molon Labe are hardened professionals, specialists in tracking down those who would remain hidden, finding those who would remain free and, sometimes, official representations in cargo inspections, contraband detection and other spatial law enforcement needs.

    Do you have what it takes to track down everyone from the scared to the hardened criminal? Can you sit for days at a time in a seedy motel waiting for your quarry to return only to have everything go sideways? Have you wanted to explore the legal proceedings of the Federation? Have you felt the need to preside over the fate of absconders? Are you looking for a specialty focused Star Trek simm that nevertheless gives you something different from what you've done before?

    Then perhaps the Molon Labe is for you!

    Take a look at our site manifest, choose what type of professional you want to be - from a Starfleet law enforcement specialist to a legal defender of the accused. There are standard, non law-enforcement positions aboard the ship as well - from Engineering to Operations to Civilian Affairs.

    If there is something you think fits within the concept but don't see, contact the CO and discuss it!

    The Molon Labe is an independant simm run by a player for players. Missions are not 'linear' and clumped up, by serialized for each player and/or character on the simm. Sometimes they'll all be together, but sometimes they won't be. The Molon Labe is by a player for players and stresses quality over quantity, so the activity is what you make it in our non-linear mission model.

    If you're looking for Trek but different, then come take a look at the Molon Labe.
    [FONT=Helvetica][COLOR=rgb(211, 211, 211)][/COLOR][/FONT]
     
  10. e3jeremey

    e3jeremey Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2016
    Location:
    Nevada
    [​IMG]

    Jolan'tru citizen! Nearly six years have past since the Hobus Supernova nearly decimated both Romulus and Remus, leaving the Romulan Star Empire near collapse. Under the guidance of Praetor Chulan the Empire continues to rebuild and now must answer those who threaten it. For this very occasion the Galae commissioned the IRW Rovaran, a mogai class, heavy escort warbird set to be the face of the Empire throughout the Beta Quadrant.

    Under the command of erie'Riov Korak tr'Seroht, the Rovaran will defend the citizens of the Romulan Star Empire, explore the reaches of the Beta Quadrant which have yet been seen, and ensure that the everyone knows the true power of the Rihannsu. For those who dare question it, they will be left in the fiery ruins of their own destruction.

    That is but a brief taste of what is available aboard the Rovaran, a sim that was created as a place to offer a fun and character driven environment for all players. We want to bring a true sense of exploration and challenge to our players within a unique environment not often seen within Star Trek sims. And, we encourage anyone who wishes to explore these things while contributing to our success and personally growing as a player and character to join us. From dangerous threats not seen since the voyages of the original Enterprise, to battling crises on a humanitarian front for the Empire, to political intrigue and exploration our sim will offer something for everyone. Visit us at http://rovaran.microbrewgames.net and join us today!

    The Rovaran is rated 18+.
     
  11. 22639

    22639 Ensign Newbie

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2016
    Welcome to 'The Rock'!
    A flash. A flash is all it took for the Borg to appear out of the depths of transwarp space and deal a crushing blow to the Federation and it's citizens. In an instant, over 16,000 men, women, and children were wiped out in a senseless and unwarranted attack on Starbase 900. From the wreckage, a small band of survivors managed to make their escape through nearly impossible odds in a gambit to find any shred of safety...

    Enter Forward Operating Base Anchorage, AKA 'The Rock'. Deep within the bowels of this planet rests one of the Federation's last hopes in the Delta Quadrant. As we struggle to survive, we will need to find the courage and strength of will to push the Borg and all of the Federation's enemies back into the darkness from whence they came.

    'The Rock' is the headquarters of the Starfleet Rapid Response Force. We house repair facilities as well as a small Rapid Response Force for quick operations within the Delta Quadrant. Join us in our quest to make history and be forever immortalized in the halls of Starfleet's heroes.

    [​IMG]


    FOB: Anchorage is an independent simm looking for Flight Control, Engineering, Science, Security, and Operations people. We also need civilian vendors.

    http://anchorage.split-world.com/index.php/main/index
     
  12. MaxwellPierce

    MaxwellPierce Cadet Newbie

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2017
    Hello all! I'm new to Trek BBS, but have been simming for some time now. My friend and I were on the verge of starting our own simm, but she is afflicted by some serious health issues and has backed out. She was to be the XO of our ship and was the one with the technical exptertise (website design, graphics, etc.). I'm putting it out there to see if anyone is interested and committing to becoming an XO with technical skills and help build the simm from the ground up.
     
  13. Yoshi Baldwin

    Yoshi Baldwin Ensign Newbie

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2013
    USS Cairo (NCC-42136) has gone through the years having a illustrious service career, starting out in the 24th century as the original Cairo an Excelsior-class Starship that was Commanded by Captain Edward Jellico until his promotion in 2370. After her destruction in 2374 from the Dominion War, her name continues to live on to this day, as a Sovereign-class and the fifth Starship to bear the name Cairo. Now the ship and crew will carry on that legacy on with them in Task Force 72 and the 4th Fleet.

    he Breen Confederacy that was once rocked in the aftermath of the Breen Crisis, have yet again been attacked. When the Second and Fifth Order of the Cardassian Guard breached their borders and retaking two of their systems Dozaria and Portas V. That were given to the Breen by the Dominion during the Dominion War. Starfleet was shocked by the fact that the Cardassian Union has launched an attack on the Breen, since they are still challenging the Romulan Empire over the Gavarian Frontier. Starfleet and the Federation worry about it spilling over into Federation Space and has ordered that Task Force 72 be on a heightened alert level as well as sending out patrols to the area.

    The USS Cairo is a multi-purpose vessel that has been assigned to patrol the Cardassian/Breen borders for incursions into Federation space as well as the assets in the area. If you like what you read there is just one option open to you - join us… and help create the legacy of the USS Cairo!

    Looking to fill the following positions!
    • Chief Flight Control Officer
    • Chief Security/Tactical Officer
    • Chief Operations Officer
    • Chief Engineering Officer
    • Chief Science Officer
    • Chief Medical Officer
    • Chief Counselor
    • Chief Diplomatic Officer
    • Company Commander - D Company, 4 Battalion, 14th Marines
    If you aren't quiet looking for a Department Head position we do have all Assistant and Junior Officer positions available. If you don't see a position your interested please feel free to contact me and I am sure we can figure something out that will work for you. Please come check us out at www.usscairo.com !!!
     
  14. KenLawe

    KenLawe Cadet Newbie

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2016
    The galaxy is a wide, wide place full of a variety of characters.

    Some of them are on the run. Those that run from justice find themselves hunted by the crew of the Molon Labe.

    Tasked as a subsection of Starfleet Security, the Molon Labe is primarily a fugitive retrieval unit. Their job is track down those who decided to flee into the wide galaxy rather than face the consequences of the justice system. They are escapees from lawful detention. They are the hardened criminals who aren't willing to go back.

    The crew of the Molon Labe are hardened professionals, specialists in tracking down those who would remain hidden, finding those who would remain free and, sometimes, official representations in cargo inspections, contraband detection and other spatial law enforcement needs.

    Do you have what it takes to track down everyone from the scared to the hardened criminal? Can you sit for days at a time in a seedy motel waiting for your quarry to return only to have everything go sideways? Have you wanted to explore the legal proceedings of the Federation? Have you felt the need to preside over the fate of absconders? Are you looking for a specialty focused Star Trek simm that nevertheless gives you something different from what you've done before?

    Then perhaps the Molon Labe is for you!

    Take a look at our site manifest, choose what type of professional you want to be - from a Starfleet law enforcement specialist to a legal defender of the accused. There are standard, non law-enforcement positions aboard the ship as well - from Engineering to Operations to Civilian Affairs.

    If there is something you think fits within the concept but don't see, contact the CO and discuss it!
    http://molonlabe.utopia-host.com/
     
  15. MBremer

    MBremer Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2006
    [​IMG]


    Starbase 400 is a steady paced, active sim that has developed a vast back-story, complete with two dozen permanent NPCs, a fleet of ships, and a dangerous intersection of space to defend. To support its in character universe, Starbase 400 maintains an academy, a database, a timeline of sim canon, and logs of each mission to ensure members are informed. With experienced and dedicated Admins, Starbase 400 focuses on character development and realistic storytelling. As a friendly community of fans and writers, we strive to work together to produce not only wonderful stories for all to read, but to also grow together and move forward...expanding on our little corner of the final frontier.


    We could go on and on about how much we like Starbase 400, but what do others have to say about our Site and Sim?

    "...wow! I'm amazed at the work and dedication. It's work like this that makes us proud. The best Trek is character driven, and you guys are all over that!" Be sure and check out their site. SB400 is busy having a great time! -Doug Drexler 7/10/16

    "I love this sim! It's just very organized but relaxed enough for writers to write." -Lieutenant Hades/aka Kat 7/16/16

    "Starbase 400 has been in existence since 1995 and has won numerous awards for its high-quality and longevity..." - Ongoing Worlds 12/30/15

    "Starbase 400 has shown themselves to be a fantastic role model for the rest of the Task Force." - Bravo Fleet Hall of Honor 12/11/15

    "It goes without out saying that Starbase 400 is one of the most storied and successful sims that has ever been produced." - Chas Hammer on behalf of the Simming Prize Trustees 6/10/15

    "Infused with a focus on character development and realistic storytelling, these factors combine, producing an intensely vibrant sim." - The Simming League 2/18/12

    "Thanks to all for such a great mission for me personally. That was better than any novel currently out. Thank you Admiral for the opportunity to try out a story that has been wasting away inside for so long! Here's to the best ship in Starfleet, USS Pegasus!" -Ensign Jon McFarland/aka Pat Brice 3/1/98


    It's the year 2393, Romulus and Remas are no more, the Enterprise-E has been decommissioned, and it's a time of change for the Federation and the rest of the Galaxy. Starbase 400 is a Space Dock type station orbiting Kaleb IV in Beta Quadrant, which sits close to Klingon, Romulan, Gorn, Tholian, and Krazzle territories as well as open space and the unclaimed 'Triangle', home to pirates and criminals. Starbase 400 has become key to the Federation's future.

    Current Openings Include:
    Chief Science Officer
    181st Tactical Fighter Wing XO
    327th Marine Regiment Commander
    Assistant Chief Diplomatic Officer
    Flight Control Officer
    Security Officer
    Fighter Pilot
    Civilian

    Our Main site has a custom LCARS design with data ranging from a Historical Timeline to Support Ship specs, a full Star Trek database to image galleries. Read though our mission logs, galactic news, apply for our web design award, join our Banner Exchange, or tour the Starbase. The NOVA site also has crew info, mission logs, an application form to join SB400, and much more. Take a look around, we know you'll be impressed, and Join the Adventure!

    HTTP://WWW.STARBASE400.ORG
    HTTP://WWW.STARBASE400.ORG/MEMBERS
     
  16. MBremer

    MBremer Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2006
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Looking to expand your online role-playing abilities?

    Want to be a GM in an established, long running group with a dedicated staff and resources to help make your job easier?

    Want to be able to direct your sim the way you want it without a ‘Fleet Timeline’?

    Then Bravo Fleet’s Task Force 99 is for you. BFTF99 is unique to BF and Trek simming. As the game master (sim
    CO) YOU pick the Star Trek timeline you want your sim to be a part of. NX era, TOS era, TMP era, TNG era, Dominion War era, post Nemesis era, The Ares Theater of Operations (based off the successful Starbase 400 timeline), NuTrek/Kelvin Timeline era, or an Alternate Reality of your choice like the Mirror Universe or something unique...BFTF99 has it all!

    Everyone has heard of Bravo Fleet. Established in 1997 and operating consistently ever since, Bravo Fleet has everything a new or experienced GM needs to be successful. An easy to use Fleet Management System, active discussion forums and Discord channels, a well-organized and updated wiki, a Command Academy (don’t worry, its painless), experienced and dedicated Fleet Staff, friendly and helpful members, and site hosting for member sims.

    Every group has its rocky times, every group has its glory days and Bravo Fleet is no different. Don’t let rumors from the past sway you and don’t let anyone fool you, make up your own mind. If I can give Bravo Fleet a
    second chance and recommend it again to you all, then you can give it a chance too! You’ll be pleasantly surprised. Join Bravo Fleet’s Task Force 99 today, http://tf99.bravofleet.com/. Join the Adventure, and make
    something unique today!
     
  17. 22639

    22639 Ensign Newbie

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2016
    [SIZE=6]Welcome to the USS Eclipse![/SIZE]
    Welcome to the USS Eclipse! The Galaxy class is an Explorer and we will explore from the largest nebula to the smallest cell. We will explore everything that is out here. The story is set in the late 24th Century, being a Galaxy Class will give a chance to explore all of the Universe!

    The USS Eclipse is a Galaxy class Starship assigned to Task Force 1.

    The USS Eclipse is currently under the command of Rear-Admiral Chris Barks he has an engineering background. He is also the Commanding Officer for the Task Force 1.

    First Officer is Commander Cassandra Quinn her background is in the Security field.

    The sim year is 2389.

    [​IMG]
    Join the fun at http://futureadventures.underground-rpgs.ca/index.php/main/index
     
  18. Arrun Suin

    Arrun Suin Cadet Newbie

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2017
    Drama, Conflict, Exploration...The USS Erebus has it all!

    The USS Erebus is a Star Trek Play by Email RPG Simulation a proud member of Theta Fleet in the Star Trek Universe. Currently docked at Starbase 281, She has had to expediate the embarkation of new crew. Orders have come through to investigate a faint distress call from Sigma Tau. What they find could be the difference between a cultural war or continued peace.

    Named after the Roman god of chaos, she is a constant reminder that no matter how bleak the situation, calm will prevail.

    Are you a driven Science fanatic aching to get your hands on the latest research developments? Or perhaps Security and Tactical is more your thing. With a fully combat ready vessel and well trained staff, peace is yours to secure.

    With a character development style of writing, opportunities are plenty for any player; whether new or experienced, the Erebus has something for you.

    Climb aboard, roam our halls, read our mission logs and peruse Personal Logs to find out what makes us all "tick". Lose yourself among the stars, just as we have.

    We are seeking new players for all positions.

    Commander Arrun Suin
    Commanding Officer
    USS Erebus

    http://usserebus.atspace.cc/trsm
    http://thetafleet.net
     
  19. CptnJuliaQuintus

    CptnJuliaQuintus Cadet Newbie

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2017
    Greetings to all.

    I am the Commanding Officer of Star Trek: Aquarius, a game that has been running for ten years. We have recently rescheduled our weekly meeting time, and are hoping to be able to bring aboard some new crew with our fresh time-slot!

    Aquarius currently runs at 11p on Tuesday nights (Eastern time), and we also have a message board component to involve interested players who are unable to make our live chat game.

    Our game is set in 2361, a few years before the start of Star Trek: The Next Generation. Most departments have openings, and we have a talented team of players that is welcoming of both new and veteran RP-ers!

    Please email me back at juliaquintus@gmail.com if you might be interested in the chat or message board game! You can also check out our forums at http://diversityfleet.freeforums.net/ Good luck playing!

    - Captain Julia Quintus
     
  20. 22639

    22639 Ensign Newbie

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2016
    The USS Eclipse has just added a Fighter Group to their manifest and are in need of a CAG and pilots.

    [​IMG]

    The Silver Eagles are an elite group of Gryphon fighter pilots giving air support to the Eclipse both on the ground and in the air.

    [​IMG]
    Join the fun by clicking on either of the patches above.