Romulan Star Empire

[Pauln6]

A mining vessel designed, one assumes with the intent to process and crack asteroids or other large steller rocks is a war ship in all but name only.

I would hazard to guess that the Star Empire was somewhat careful about who among them got their hands on that kind of hardware, given Romulan paranoia - who needs the Scimitar when you have civilians with that kind of arsenal?

I'd actually like to see some kind of linkage either by story or design between the Scimitar and the Narada. Maybe someone can better help me grasp how a slave could build a military ship.

And it didn't truly become a super weapon until after Spock showed up on the scene with his handy red matter.

I don't buy this simplified explanation for the Narada. A ship designed to crack asteroids needs its powerful drill and low level shields to deflect debris. Most of its size would be for storage for the ore. I can understand that the Romulans might give it some weapons and shields to defend itself against raiders (assuming the Romulans have intergalactic highwaymen) but I agree that giving a 'simple' mining vessel the ability to destroy 47 Klingon ships quickly followed by 7 Federation ships the next day stretches even Trek credibility too far.

TNG Romulan warships have always been on par with the Federation's most powerful ships but TNG was very fuzzy when it came to power generation. Ships are faster because of more efficient warp engines but warheads can presumably only be more powerful because they contain more antimatter? Phasers are more powerful because... I dunno - you can sustain a powerful beam for longer thus weakening your opponents shields unless those shields have also have greater power sustaining them? I'm not sure about the notion that the beam itself could become vastly more powerful. I'm not sure that I buy the notion of vastly more powerful weapons using Trek physics. Maybe more modern phasers rotate their frequencies faster than old shields so that more of the energy gets through?

Anyway, the Narada seems to have no difficulty operating a planet-cracking drill, shields, phasers, and an unlimited supply of anti-matter warheads (anti-matter weapons replication technology on board a mining ship?) all at the same time.

I have no problem with the Narada being powerful because it comes from the future but they made it unecessarily and ridulously powerful, effectively using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I think if you overdo it, it detracts from the excitement. It's better if there is a slight power imbalance in favour of the villain (a classic movie trick used in almost every decent climactic fist fight).

Why 47 Klingon ships? Why not 5? Why 7 Federation ships instead of 3? The latter answer is probably to leave Earth relatively defenseless but that dopey plot trick has never really worked either.

I can buy that the Romulan Empire would be fractured by the destruction of the Senate and a civil war might be inevitable but the destruction of one world would not spell the end of Romulan society any more than the destruction of one moon would lead to the collapse of the Klingon Empire.

Look at the modern parallel with the current Arab revolt. Stability is the goal. The destruction of these key planets would have a similar destablising effect to deposing a ruling government. The politics of the after-effects would be much more interesting than the Frankenstein's mining ship we got in this movie.

 

[Salvek]

Nice tap dance. Thing is he's correct. Romulans didnt have the ridge in TOS or the TOS movies. Spock could move freely through Romulan society without the ridge. The Romulans seen in TOS and the movies had a variety of hair styles as well.

Why would a mining ship look like a warship?

What "realworld" difference would that be vis-à-vis Romulan make up? It wasn't new makeup techinques that prompted the change.

Of course the TNG movies would feature the make up established on that show.


There is no "right" or "wrong". There are just reasons why they used the make up they did. Saying something is "stupid" is hardly the way to engender discussion or conversation.


No, why would you think that?

Do I? How so?

Please dont go all absolute and tell me what TV series is accepted and whats not-it kills discussions

Who said anything about TOS trumping TNG? The consensus seems to be that Romulans can be smooth and ridged.

Spock could move freely through Romulan Society?! What the hell was Unification parts 1 and 2 about? Did not Starfleet intelligence indicate Spock had disappered all so he could escape detection by the Romulan Government?
So because the V ridge is gone Spock is accepted with all his views by the Ruling Romulan Govenment that wanted to invade Vulcan and annex it by force?

I think other posters answered you first question and your second.

The "V" has nothing to do with Spock's views being accepted and the Romulans invasion plans. Why would you think it does?

Hi Nerys Myk Sorry for Late Reply

What I meant by "real World" was the change from the TOS era Romulans appearance to the TNG was a choice made not as a inthe Trek universe one. Its still a reason for it -and its just done to each person to like it or hate it

There is no "right" or "wrong". There are just reasons why they used the make up they did. Saying something is "stupid" is hardly the way to engender discussion or conversation.

Exactly my point these are all my reactions to Bretts intial post and somehow your taking them as replies to yourself.

Its all gotten away of the original thread topic and very messy. Look I have enjoyed the discussion for the most part
but bretts post dealt in absolutes and made it clear there was no room for discussion

Thats not the point of a thread on a message board and I reacted to that post, now the fact is being mistaken as reply to you has just made it worse

Brett has since posted again and advised these replys are moderate compared to what is common on the TrekBBS and I should develop a thicker skin.

I can take all the knocks that one can give as long as its a discussion with room to move and exchange ideas not be told that the poster finds this mmake up look insultating and than to seal it off with no explanation needed-

Nothing to discuss so whats the point?

Brett I respect what you are saying but it was just your opinion and its personal taste.

How this ended up as a ridged forehead or non ridged fore head debate is far from discussing if romulus as destroyed meant no romulan star empire.

That could have been better as a poll

Now my point on Spock in un ification was he was moving in underground as working with romulans in secret promoting peaceful reunification with Vulcans -The Romulan government wanted this stopped and in fact were aiming to invade vulcan

Somehow It became Spock could walk freely as there smooth foreheads and ridged -which is fine its spocks actvities on Romulus and being noted for them by the government that made him a target-hence cloaks and caves

Ok I missed how this became an issue and that was not my original intention as again it boils down to simple taste and was not really great discussion material.

Oh FFS I said nothing about TOS being better tng etc etc

I was saying in advance please do not be another poster that can dismiss the fact that you have 4 star trek tv series establishing a look for the romulans -which again like or not it is there.

Thanks for replies

 

[Nerys Myk]

Salvek,
Since this is a BBS its always going to be a group discussion. Anything youy say here goes out to the entire group not just the poster you're responding too. If you say something in response to Brett and I have thoughts about that, I'll present those thoughts. There are no "private" conversations.

You might want to look how things are formatted here. It will make your posts a little clearer.

 

[zar]

Dude, though, the Romulans in TNG are not "the" status quo on Romulans. Imagine the fans of Star Trek that were familiar with the Romulans of 79 episodes and 6 movies. Suddenly after 25 years they get morphed into this v-ridge boxy looking race of people and culture?

It must be pointed out that Romulan characters only appeared in 2 episodes of TOS and one movie (Star Trek 6 was released 3 years after TNG had already started and aired several Romulan episodes). It's one thing to prefer the Romulans who appeared in those couple of episodes, but quite another to pretend they were some kind of TOS staple over 80 episodes and blatantly ignore the fact that TNG/DS9 are the status quo that actually fleshed them out.

 

[Salvek]

Salvek,
Since this is a BBS its always going to be a group discussion. Anything youy say here goes out to the entire group not just the poster you're responding too. If you say something in response to Brett and I have thoughts about that, I'll present those thoughts. There are no "private" conversations.

You might want to look how things are formatted here. It will make your posts a little clearer.

Agreed in full and will do

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The romulans are not romulans-Not in attitude/demeanour and definatly not looks.

Who are the Romulans? I don't think they've been defined, even after all this time.

Nero & the gang didn't act characteristically Romulan - they could have been any number of other alien species - but they didn't act un-Romulan, either. It would be good for a movie or TV show to provide that definition - I was hoping Trek XI might do that - but it had enough on its plate.

I don't mind their looks. The dorky hairstyle and big TNG shoulder pads do not need to be promulgated into the movies.

 

[zar]

I don't mind their looks. The dorky hairstyle and big TNG shoulder pads do not need to be promulgated into the movies.

What about this one?

This redesign was Ronald D. Moore's idea. After he watched the episode "Visionary", he came to feel that the old style Romulan uniforms were unacceptable and he had Robert Blackman give the design an overhaul; "I hated, underline hated, the Romulan costumes. Big shoulder pads, the quilting, I just loathed it. I begged, insisted, screamed, pleaded." (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion)

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Improbable_Cause_(episode)#Background

 

[F. King Daniel]

^It's the same but with slightly smaller shoulder pads!

Nemesis/Enterprise dropped the shoulder pads completely and turned the outfits black, but kept the horrible hair.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The romulans are not romulans-Not in attitude/demeanour and definatly not looks.

Who are the Romulans? I don't think they've been defined, even after all this time.

Nero & the gang didn't act characteristically Romulan - they could have been any number of other alien species - but they didn't act un-Romulan, either. It would be good for a movie or TV show to provide that definition - I was hoping Trek XI might do that - but it had enough on its plate.

I don't mind their looks. The dorky hairstyle and big TNG shoulder pads do not need to be promulgated into the movies.

IMO the Romulans were defined in Diane Duane's Rihannsu novels. Shame the TV writers never read them.

 

[Salvek]

The romulans are not romulans-Not in attitude/demeanour and definatly not looks.

Who are the Romulans? I don't think they've been defined, even after all this time.

Nero & the gang didn't act characteristically Romulan - they could have been any number of other alien species - but they didn't act un-Romulan, either. It would be good for a movie or TV show to provide that definition - I was hoping Trek XI might do that - but it had enough on its plate.

I don't mind their looks. The dorky hairstyle and big TNG shoulder pads do not need to be promulgated into the movies.

I feel the Romulans have been defined but like the Klingons their intial concept changed.

In the book making of Star Trek by Stephen Whitfield (written in coperation with Gene Roddenberry) in the chapter "the bad guys" we get a look at Romulans and Klingons

A summary paragraph on Romulans

"it is hard to hate the Romulans completely, as they often display enormous courage. Although members of a warrior society in which the strong alone survive, they live their beliefs with great intregrity"

As seen in TOS with Balance of Terrors Romulan Captain

and on Klingons

"All in All, the Klingons have little (by our standards) in the way of redeeming qualities"

Any of the TOS Klingons display devious natures

By TNG
They had reversed this somewhat with Klingons focused on Honour.

But The Races had the advantage of TNG, DS9, VOY and even Enterrpise to establish the characteristics of the Races

Romulans had now become devious and shrewd opponents "always a Game of Chess" They operated in the shadows and preferred to decieve an opponent in making the first strike.

We got a glimpse into their culture -"the Enemy" like the Romulan surpised that Geordi being Blind was not killed at birth

The Romulan who was dying in that same episode would rather die than take a life saving blood transfusion from worf.

All through TNG and Ds9 this was consistent and established-so i do feel the statement "What is Romulan" is valid

I know Im alone but I liked the look that TNG started and Nemesis began to update in terms of uniforms-I always thought the hair cuts linked them to the Vulcans -The forhead ridge could stay or go I got used to it.

If they kept the haircuts on Nero and his crew it would have helped me- -but than the flashback image of his wife and was a clear statement they were going their own way.

I was amazed they were cheap enough to use the Nemesis Uniforms as is in Enterprise Romulans that was just cheap -I mean Fashion might be cyclic but come on

 

[Salvek]

IMO the Romulans were defined in Diane Duane's Rihannsu novels. Shame the TV writers never read them.

Absolutely agree -Best trek novels I have read in terms of the Romulans. While i accepted what was established on the TV series-Dianes work surpassed that

 

[Salvek]

I don't mind their looks. The dorky hairstyle and big TNG shoulder pads do not need to be promulgated into the movies.

What about this one?

This redesign was Ronald D. Moore's idea. After he watched the episode "Visionary", he came to feel that the old style Romulan uniforms were unacceptable and he had Robert Blackman give the design an overhaul; "I hated, underline hated, the Romulan costumes. Big shoulder pads, the quilting, I just loathed it. I begged, insisted, screamed, pleaded." (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion)

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Improbable_Cause_(episode)#Background

Thats the Tal Shiar Uniform-If you notice DS9 kept the TNG uniforms for Regular Romulan Military -DS9 Established the Tal Shiar look-(Deannas Tal Shiar uniform in Face of the Enemy TNG was a once off)

I thought the Nemesis outfits were a nice mix of the two designs the shoulder pads are gone-quilt replaced by patterns in the fabric.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I don't mind their looks. The dorky hairstyle and big TNG shoulder pads do not need to be promulgated into the movies.

What about this one?

This redesign was Ronald D. Moore's idea. After he watched the episode "Visionary", he came to feel that the old style Romulan uniforms were unacceptable and he had Robert Blackman give the design an overhaul; "I hated, underline hated, the Romulan costumes. Big shoulder pads, the quilting, I just loathed it. I begged, insisted, screamed, pleaded." (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion)

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Improbable_Cause_%28episode%29#Background

DS9 era Rommies' looks are the right idea, for the uniforms. I don't see why the need to all have the same hairstyle, though.

So how did Diane Duane define the Rommies in her novels? To me, something like this isn't distinctive enough:

"it is hard to hate the Romulans completely, as they often display enormous courage. Although members of a warrior society in which the strong alone survive, they live their beliefs with great intregrity"

The Romulans are just nice guys who sometimes the Federation has misunderstanding with? That makes them too similar to, say, Andorians in the ENT era.

What do they have that makes them unique? And why can't they get along with the Federation, when the Feds and the crazy-ass Klingons can play nice? What are those "beliefs" that they live with great integrity? There must be some wedge the Rommies have, that is causing this continued friction, because of course the Feds always want to be friends with everyone!

Romulans had now become devious and shrewd opponents "always a Game of Chess" They operated in the shadows and preferred to decieve an opponent in making the first strike.

That's not necessarily inconsistent with TOS Rommies - they're just being smarter about their strategy. But what is behind it all?

We got a glimpse into their culture -"the Enemy" like the Romulan surpised that Geordi being Blind was not killed at birth

The Romulan who was dying in that same episode would rather die than take a life saving blood transfusion from worf.

To me, this implies the Romulans are incredibly rigid and unaccepting of any weakness. They see themselves as superior to other races of the galaxy, and that's the wedge that keeps them from playing nice with the Feds. They see themselves as a master race and will never get along with their "inferiors." That makes them very dangerous, and synchs up well with their being Vulcanoid, because let's face it, the Vulcans also think of themselves as superior, but are too disciplined to be so obvious about it.

But that reading of the Rommies is inconsistent with Nero & his crew. If this is a racial quality in them, even working class Rommies should have it. Nero should have been contemptuous of Starfleet, rather than seeming like a human who was on a quest for vengeance because he was personally angry at Spock.