Romulan Star Empire

[Salvek]

Hi all

I want to see peoples views/rants/reasons on something that has annoyed me in this movie.

First off Im not a rabid hater of the movie-Im glad Trek is back and new people are enjoying the franchise old and new. I belive in terms of the big three, Kirk, Spock and Mccoy -they did a great job casting and in mannerisms -interaction etc.

Im a Romulan Fan so over 11 movies and 5 tv series they have been established as a species with a culture. They also have their own design ethic with their look, outfits and ships.

Well this where this movie fails for me.

The romulans are not romulans-Not in attitude/demeanour and definatly not looks.

their mining vessel is the lovechild of pinhead and the borg queen-When Nero says this is a mining vessel from "his" time which is 8 years after Star Trek 10 I was stunned-gone was the established look of Romulan Ships -and hello hellraiser

Nero was so badly explained/written that i just gave up -apparently ala Khan -revenge is a dish best served very messy and very late and your not sure what your eating.

To the point who here belives the Romulan Star Empire consists of Just Romulus?

Thats what this movie has us belive that a group of miners are the only romulans left in all of the star empire.

Now I watched it 3 times Spock had promised the Romulans to save their homeword (not EMPIRE) so by the movie the Hobus Supernova was a threat to Romulus itself not the many planets of the empire.

So even if Hobus affected more worlds the Romulans knew about it and assumption here they would have planned.

But the movie makes out Nero/crew are the last -now I know he says I stand alone from the Empire -he and the crew cannot be the last!

Why would they write this?

Now Im going by the movie only -I know there is a prequel comic which explains some backstory.

Its so contrived and badly written I have ignored it-now apparently it is canon -is that what you all feel?

 

[Hythlodeus]

After the destruction of the Romulan senat and the death of Praetor Shinzon, the Romulan Empire fell apart.

 

[Salvek]

After the destruction of the Romulan senat and the death of Praetor Shinzon, the Romulan Empire fell apart.

Really? Where is that written?! I have to see that with my own eyes.

 

[Devon]

The romulans are not romulans-Not in attitude/demeanour and definatly not looks.

They don't look like Romulan military officers, no. Of course, I don't look or act like a lot of people on this earth from different walks of life. Different skin color, different clothing, different language, different demeanor, etc.

their mining vessel is the lovechild of pinhead and the borg queen-When Nero says this is a mining vessel from "his" time which is 8 years after Star Trek 10 I was stunned-gone was the established look of Romulan Ships

We've never seen Romulan civilian mining vessels.

To the point who here belives the Romulan Star Empire consists of Just Romulus?

If you're willing to accept the possibility of Romulus not being the only planet in the empire, then why not accept the possibility that the Romulans you've seen before (which were military based) are not the only types of Romulans?

Thats what this movie has us belive that a group of miners are the only romulans left in all of the star empire.

I don't think that was ever suggested.

Now I watched it 3 times Spock had promised the Romulans to save their homeword (not EMPIRE) so by the movie the Hobus Supernova was a threat to Romulus itself not the many planets of the empire.

So even if Hobus affected more worlds the Romulans knew about it and assumption here they would have planned.

But the movie makes out Nero/crew are the last -now I know he says I stand alone from the Empire -he and the crew cannot be the last!

Why would they write this?

Not sure what you mean. You've been saying that "we were led to believe" and "it makes out," which is different than it being blatantly written. I don't recall it being written that these guys were the only survivors.

Its so contrived and badly written I have ignored it-now apparently it is canon

You should clarify, what aspect are you speaking of that is canon? Especially important since nearly all of what you say is based on assumption.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The romulans were not romulans - not in attitude/demeanour and definately not looks.

People said the exact same thing in 1979 after TMP premiered. I have complaint-packed Best of Trek books to prove it.
We'd only ever seen Romulan soldiers and a few upper-crust civilians up until STXI. Heck, TMP, ENT and the rest of Trek would have us believe we only saw a certain type of Klingon/human fusion during all of The Original Series. Many of Nero's crew had odd lumps and bumps, possibly even suggesting alien blood (maybe half- and quarter- breeds from those Romulan subject worlds?)
During Spock's mind meld on Delta Vega, we briefly see Ambassador Spock meeting with the Romulan leadership who have the Nemesis look, minus the forehead ridges.

I thought Narada had a few design similarities (particularly the interiors) with the Romulan drone ships seen in season four of Enterprise and Nemesis' Scimitar.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Spock calls Nero "The last of the Romulan Empire". While it's a line ignored by the Star Trek Online videogame (where the Romulan Empire continues, albiet in a much weakened state), it is concievable that a massively-centralized star empire (and Romulus is one - Shinzon took over after one group assassination) could collapse when the ruling world is removed. The Romulans likely rule their subject worlds through fear - take away the Empire's strongest world and their entire leadership, and many uprisings across many worlds would likely be the result.

Personally, I loved the STXI Romulans. I'd aways hated the TNG/DS9 bowl cut/shoulder pad look and monoculture. Variety = good, IMO.

 

[Timo]

Spock calls Nero "The last of the Romulan Empire".

Which might be untrue in both the 2380s (where many may survive even if billions are gone) and the 2250s (where nobody in the actual Empire has been hurt), but is sort of true for the combination of those. Nero is, after all, the only thing of the 2380s Romulan Empire that remains in the 2250s...

Variety = good, IMO.

Seconded. And it was nice to see at least a glimpse of the other Romulan look, the stuffy military people - if not for any other reason, then to prove that Nero's miner bunch indeed was variety rather than the new norm.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Pauln6]

More to the point, why is the Romulan Empire portrayed as a powerful threat when it seems to consist of one planetary system and a few distant, sparsely populated outposts? Same as the Klingon Empire. Empires should consist of multiple systems and multiple races with regional governments. Both empires have been rather one-dimensionally portrayed throughout Trek's canon history. I think the novels have padded them out a bit (I can recall the Kreel as being a klingon subject race).

 

[Mage]

This is the second topic I've seen from Salvek not liking the movie mostly because of the Romulans and their ship and that because he doesn't like the Romulans and the prequel-comics sucked (also mentioned in his other topic) the movie was badly written.

I don't mind people not liking the movie, but only because of the reasons you've mentioned is a bit of lame reason.
As stated by other people before me, these weren't the military Romulans we've seen sofar. They're miners, so yeah, they are going to behave differently then trained soldiers.

And if you don't like the comics, just ignore them. I love reading Trek novells, but not all of them, so I just ignore and focus on the things I like.

 

[Salvek]

They don't look like Romulan military officers, no. Of course, I don't look or act like a lot of people on this earth from different walks of life. Different skin color, different clothing, different language, different demeanor, etc.

Ok in 8 years from Nemesis to the reboot the Romulans lose the forhead ridges (Remember the hue and cry with the Klingons from TOS no ridges to TMP and TNG with ridges)

They lose the distinct Vulcan hairstyles and hair colour (now again im talking whats shown/explained on film) and now all bald with facial markings (bar the brief image of Neros wife who has long blonde hair)

Now we have seen romulan civilians (uinification) not just Military officers-even than these Romulans look different and I see to counterpoints to what im highlighting and from the replies i skimmed before answering each one

Im already seeing my intent with this post is being met negatively and classic debate tactics insue answering a question with question etc

So my point is these romulans are unlike any seen before

But already I have the pandoras box responce of well we have never seen miners before and all species are diversfied into different races etc etc

Up until the warbird commander in (tng Pegasus) did we see any radical change from the vulcan look

Ok with that rationale we all can just add any reason to justify any change because its all analogy to the human race.

I assumed as assumed we took the filmed movie and TV as canon going by that assumption their drastic change in the reboot without in film explanation is jarring.

their mining vessel is the lovechild of pinhead and the borg queen-When Nero says this is a mining vessel from "his" time which is 8 years after Star Trek 10 I was stunned-gone was the established look of Romulan Ships

We've never seen Romulan civilian mining vessels.

True but the ones we have seen of Romulan Vessels they have uniformity of design as they operate on the 2 narcelle principal and often have an avian design or motif running through them-again the narada as explained in the film as nero states this is a simple minig vessel from his time which is again 8 years after nemesis -again the change is radical and jarring.



If you're willing to accept the possibility of Romulus not being the only planet in the empire, then why not accept the possibility that the Romulans you've seen before (which were military based) are not the only types of Romulans?

Because I operated on what was established on the previous tv/movies prior to the reboot It was only nemesis introduced another race the remans and showed us remus
even than it was explained in the movie why we did not seem than in other episodes (slaves banished to work on Remus/used only as shock troops in the dominion war)

Im fine with other races being part of the romulan Star Empire in fact it gives it a sense of an Empire-(as they were orignally based on Romans, who which granted citizenship to other cultures as long as they served their time in the military) -it explains how Sela a half human could rise in rank and how Shinzon a Human Clone could get the support of the military. Romulans place more on an indivduals power than race

Again my issue is the reboot just made drastic changes -fine but it seems change for the sake of change-not even story line reasoning.

I don't think that was ever suggested.

Now I watched it 3 times Spock had promised the Romulans to save their homeword (not EMPIRE) so by the movie the Hobus Supernova was a threat to Romulus itself not the many planets of the empire.

So even if Hobus affected more worlds the Romulans knew about it and assumption here they would have planned.

But the movie makes out Nero/crew are the last -now I know he says I stand alone from the Empire -he and the crew cannot be the last!

Why would they write this?

Not sure what you mean. You've been saying that "we were led to believe" and "it makes out," which is different than it being blatantly written. I don't recall it being written that these guys were the only survivors.

I have missed where you quoted where i typed that but Im saying the going by what is said -Nero and his crew are it. Spock says it in the mindmeld flashback with Kirk

My concern is that drastically changes the idea of the romulan empire and just makes alot of what has been established undone.

Its so contrived and badly written I have ignored it-now apparently it is canon

You should clarify, what aspect are you speaking of that is canon? Especially important since nearly all of what you say is based on assumption.[/QUOTE]

I do apologise for the confusion to what I was referring to the prequel comic for the reboot which "explains" Neros backstory -It is so badly written and the plot contrived to cover all of what is not explained the movie that I was concerned is "canon" because quite a few people use it when I have issue with what i feel is uexplained in the movie.

I may not like whole of the movie, and to clarify again I like alot but there is a clear differance in the movie script to the prequel comic

What my intent with this thread was to discuss The Romulans as presented in the movie as opposed to whats been established. Im not just picking on the reboot a a whole.

 

[Merky]

Ok in 8 years from Nemesis to the reboot the Romulans lose the forhead ridges (Remember the hue and cry with the Klingons from TOS no ridges to TMP and TNG with ridges)

They lose the distinct Vulcan hairstyles and hair colour (now again im talking whats shown/explained on film) and now all bald with facial markings (bar the brief image of Neros wife who has long blonde hair)

I think it was said that the bald heads and tatttos was a symbol of Romulan mourning for the dead.

[Image resized to alleviate page-stretching. - M']

look, non-angry romulans from the future.

Now we have seen romulan civilians (uinification) not just Military officers-even than these Romulans look different and I see to counterpoints to what im highlighting and from the replies i skimmed before answering each one

Dude, this argument makes as much sense as people complaining about how the Klingons look drastically different from their 60s counterpart or how the Romulans in TNG - VOY look different from their 60s counterpart. So they decided to do another make up change? Why is this a crime against humanity?

Everything else was tl;dr ._.

 

[Cyke101]

I remember as a kid growing up on TNG/DS9, thinking that eventually all Romulans entered the military, and if they didn't stay in the military they went into politics or espionage, simply because of the way we had seen all Romulans; I assumed that, like a major totalitarian power, that was just how life went. Even the underground in Unification was made up of mostly military-looking officials, not civilians like most other underground movements.

 

[Salvek]

The romulans were not romulans - not in attitude/demeanour and definately not looks.

People said the exact same thing in 1979 after TMP premiered. I have complaint-packed Best of Trek books to prove it.
We'd only ever seen Romulan soldiers and a few upper-crust civilians up until STXI. Heck, TMP, ENT and the rest of Trek would have us believe we only saw a certain type of Klingon/human fusion during all of The Original Series. Many of Nero's crew had odd lumps and bumps, possibly even suggesting alien blood (maybe half- and quarter- breeds from those Romulan subject worlds?)
During Spock's mind meld on Delta Vega, we briefly see Ambassador Spock meeting with the Romulan leadership who have the Nemesis look, minus the forehead ridges.

I thought Narada had a few design similarities (particularly the interiors) with the Romulan drone ships seen in season four of Enterprise and Nemesis' Scimitar.

Hi Kingdaniel

We have seen normal citizens in unification -as to the mixed race idea im fine with that its just not explained in the movie-i just felt the changes to the romulans appearance (People and Ships) were drastic and seemed only change for changes sake.

I know STX is derided and sure its is flawed massively but as a romulan fan it was all I got on the big screen after 9 movies -they updated the uniforms/Senators outfits -a new warship etc-We even got a decent shot of the capitol city But they kept the established look -change is fine but still keep the idenity-

Not drastic surgery and a totally bizarre appearance without some explanation. It could have been worked in and Nero and crew better for it

 

[zar]

People said the exact same thing in 1979 after TMP premiered. I have complaint-packed Best of Trek books to prove it.

Dude, this argument makes as much sense as people complaining about how the Klingons look drastically different from their 60s counterpart

This seems like a knee-jerk response to shoo away STXI criticizers. Yes, change/evolution is good, but if you read more closely I think you'll find Salvek has a point. With the Romulans, they essentially created a brand new race/culture/design/appearance and slapped the name "Romulan" on it with no apparent explanation or links to what we'd already seen. You can't just wave it off by noting the similarity to Klingon complaints. Obviously that change was done to make up for lack of budget and capabilities of the 60s - how does that justification apply here?

 

[Salvek]

Spock calls Nero "The last of the Romulan Empire". While it's a line ignored by the Star Trek Online videogame (where the Romulan Empire continues, albiet in a much weakened state), it is concievable that a massively-centralized star empire (and Romulus is one - Shinzon took over after one group assassination) could collapse when the ruling world is removed. The Romulans likely rule their subject worlds through fear - take away the Empire's strongest world and their entire leadership, and many uprisings across many worlds would likely be the result.

Personally, I loved the STXI Romulans. I'd aways hated the TNG/DS9 bowl cut/shoulder pad look and monoculture. Variety = good, IMO.

Hi again KingDaniel

I cannot buy that with Romulus knocked out in 8 years the Romulan Star Empire would collapse entirely. Its always been described as a "chaotic" Government but this Race has lasted 2000 years and had Klingons as Neighbours.

The romulans are a proud and passionate people that belive might makes right -
their infamous tal shiar got decimated in the dominion trap, so the fear of the tal shiar was not the only thing holding the empire together -
they entered the dominion war and remained intact after that as well, so if there was large discontent it would have struck when the military was off fighting.
Shinzons coup was only possible because of the support of Senator Tal'aura, Commanders Donatra and Suran. They wanted to wage war on the federation, obviously Praetor Hiren did not. Even after the senate wiped out and a human clone was in charge-the Empire held together.
Shinzons coup really only extended to the scimitar and it was the romulan fleet maintainig order (if it was needed-again no signs of unrest as the result of the coup)
So with Romulus gone-I belive the Empire would hit hard but not wiped out.


I quite like the plot line of the STO -in fact it treated the Romulans well the only thing i have issue with is the hirogen alliance

Sorry I will proudly say I love the TNG original look updated by Nemesis I love the haircuts as it links them to the vulcans -its an odd style but i think that adds to it.

For me the Bald vulcan look is just cliche villian headbangers

 

[Merky]

People said the exact same thing in 1979 after TMP premiered. I have complaint-packed Best of Trek books to prove it.

Dude, this argument makes as much sense as people complaining about how the Klingons look drastically different from their 60s counterpart

This seems like a knee-jerk response to shoo away STXI criticizers. Yes, change/evolution is good, but if you read more closely I think you'll find Salvek has a point. With the Romulans, they essentially created a brand new race/culture/design/appearance and slapped the name "Romulan" on it with no apparent explanation or links to what we'd already seen. You can't just wave it off by noting the similarity to Klingon complaints. Obviously that change was done to make up for lack of budget and capabilities of the 60s - how does that justification apply here?

We have a group of blue collar Romulans who are not of the higher class that we've been exposed to throughout TNG - VOY. These guys spent 25 years in a Klingon prison, came out, supped up their ship and decided to take revenge on the entire Federation. They shaved their heads and tattooed their faces in mourning for those they lost.

We never got to see a Romulan culture or design besides what was presented with Nero. So what do we know of Romulus? Of the Romulans? I can not base an entire society's interpretation on one secular group of Romulans who were, obviously, very low on the social scale, expressed they were separate of the Empire, and were also very disturbed due to the loss of their families, etc. Also, how was Spock able to live incognito on Romulus for so long without being discovered as a Vulcan? He had no ridge. It can then be assumed that there were Romulans with ridges and romulans without.

Nero is one Romulan of billions. I do not see that as a direct slap in the face to Romulan continuity when it's been established that this race has gone under many make up changes... and quite frankly, I hated that ridge deal. They were their Vulcan cousins, the whole ridge killed that ying/yang they represented with the Vulcans.

 

[Salvek]

This is the second topic I've seen from Salvek not liking the movie mostly because of the Romulans and their ship and that because he doesn't like the Romulans and the prequel-comics sucked (also mentioned in his other topic) the movie was badly written.

I don't mind people not liking the movie, but only because of the reasons you've mentioned is a bit of lame reason.
As stated by other people before me, these weren't the military Romulans we've seen sofar. They're miners, so yeah, they are going to behave differently then trained soldiers.

And if you don't like the comics, just ignore them. I love reading Trek novells, but not all of them, so I just ignore and focus on the things I like.

Hi Mage

Wow You got it wrong mate-but with my often confusing late night typing I understand

I LOVE the Romulans Please read all my posts in this thread.

Ok lets break it down

The Movie (2009) I did not LIKE it overall but I do NOT hate it

First its brought back the Trek Franchise from a slow and painful death (thanks Berman and Braga) It means more interest in Trek New and OLD Thumbs up from me

I thought Spock, Kirk Mccoy and Uhura were captured well and look foward to more adventures

The visuals were impressive and any time Leonard Nimoy appears its great

Sorry where the movie failed for me was the whole red ball of ultimate death/bizarre time worm hole plot it was messy

Than there were the romulans as I have said I feel not explained well enough changed for change sake alone and yes Nero states his ship is a mining vessel from his time and hes a simple miner

If the narada is a simple mining vessel who the hell needs the scimitar with its 50 disruptor banks and fire while cloaked? Piss that tonka toy off

we have the 5km by 5km mining vessel with the drilling beam of planet busting backed up by mining missiles

According to the movie it can wipe out 47 Klingon Warships in a single engagement -Yep sure its 150 years ahead of them but its a MINING vessel

By this logic The romulans should just send their mining fleet into the federation

I stand by my opinion The movie is badly written it cannot just give us wham bam fx and hope we can just ride with its complicated temporal plot. You need to explain things its a simple fix ditch Scotty getting stuck in the willy wonka water tube sequence or the Kirk gets chased by random monsters sequence and develop the protagnists that are driving the story foward.

Nero as written is a very poor Khan "revenge GRRR" At least Khan was a genetic tyrant -Nero the simple miner handles temporal mechanics like its a common occurence.

We have seen romulan civilians before in unification 1 and 2 TNG season 5 before

and YES miners will act differantly from trained soldiers

Such as all of these skinheads are happy to play around the timeline because nero wants revenge grrr-last time I checked miners did this nasty work for good money

Their morale surpasses even the best troops they wait 25 years in temporal wormholes all because nero wants it


am i to assume that every miners loved one/friend was on romulus? as pointed out these guys look like they may come from romulan worlds-so i bet they would rather be with them instead of floating around time and space

Sure their homeworld is destroyed but does that mean their race is gone?

They are playing around with a powerful destructive matter and handle it like yep thats part of mining, federation super science is in the days work.

To top off how kick ass these guys are they take on 47 ships manned by trained Naval Klingons no less and presto all good

Yep these miners are amazing -going by this Romulan Soldiers should be gods


Dont worry I will ignore the comic-the sad fact is because the movie does not explain important information -it ends up in the comic

hence my dilemma is the comic canon?

 

[F. King Daniel]

The comic is no more canon than any of the other Trek tie-ins (which STXI borrowed quite a bit from, like George and Winona Kirk who are from Diane Duane's old novels Final Frontier and Best Destiny). The writer of the film (who also co-wrote Coubtdown) said so themselves.

The 24th century Narada smashing 23rd century ships like tin foil is no different than the 23rd century USS Defiant smashing the 22nd century Vulcan, Andorian, Tholian and human ships in "In a Mirror, Darkly", IMO. Did you need to first see "The Tholian Web" or TOS to understand that story? Nope. "It's from the future, so it's a lot more powerful than what we've got" was enough.

 

[Salvek]

Ok in 8 years from Nemesis to the reboot the Romulans lose the forhead ridges (Remember the hue and cry with the Klingons from TOS no ridges to TMP and TNG with ridges)

They lose the distinct Vulcan hairstyles and hair colour (now again im talking whats shown/explained on film) and now all bald with facial markings (bar the brief image of Neros wife who has long blonde hair)

I think it was said that the bald heads and tatttos was a symbol of Romulan mourning for the dead.

Not in the movie

[Image resized to alleviate page-stretching. - M']

look, non-angry romulans from the future.

look Vulcans

Now we have seen romulan civilians (uinification) not just Military officers-even than these Romulans look different and I see to counterpoints to what im highlighting and from the replies i skimmed before answering each one

Dude, this argument makes as much sense as people complaining about how the Klingons look drastically different from their 60s counterpart or how the Romulans in TNG - VOY look different from their 60s counterpart. So they decided to do another make up change? Why is this a crime against humanity?

No crime against humanity just Romulans as established. So in 8 years they lose the for head ridges-hair styles clothing ship design

Why?

Could it be explained in a movie filled with big badda boom fx? Yep! drop the crap scotty comedy and random monsters in the snow and explain your protagnists better than its Khan 2.0 and his crew of fanatical miners aboard the mining vessel from hellraiser

Everything else was tl;dr ._.

I have no idea what that means, please translate into english sorry my replies ended up in the quote of your post i have highlighted them in bold.

 

[Salvek]

The comic is no more canon than any of the other Trek tie-ins (which STXI borrowed quite a bit from, like George and Winona Kirk who are from Diane Duane's old novels Final Frontier and Best Destiny). The writer of the film (who also co-wrote Coubtdown) said so themselves.

The 24th century Narada smashing 23rd century ships like tin foil is no different than the 23rd century USS Defiant smashing the 22nd century Vulcan, Andorian, Tholian and human ships in "In a Mirror, Darkly", IMO. Did you need to first see "The Tholian Web" or TOS to understand that story? Nope. "It's from the future, so it's a lot more powerful than what we've got" was enough.

Ok that puts my mind at ease thanks

Im sorry

I still have issue with the narada

A mining vessel is a mining vessel even with a 150 year leap why would it be able to wipe out 47 klingon warships in a single engagement-in the star trek universe the Klingons are using ships centuries old now in the dominion war

Would a mining vessel have the latest and greatest in 2387 weapon tech to bust asteroids? Would it be allowed to?

BTW I liked those mirror episodes but the Defiant was a Cruiser not a mining ship.

I feel such radical changes such as the narada with its look and power do warrant some in story explanation.