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Romulan mining vessels.

I have to ask: why do you chop up posts into individual (sometimes half-) sentences and then deal with them as if they represent isolated points instead of part of a greater whole? I'd like you to stop doing it; please reply to the entirety of my posts, instead of trying to dissect them and selectively ignore certain parts.

I'm not really sure what to say to you if you honestly believe that Nazi Germany and the DPRK are not examples of highly militarized societies; for crying out loud, the latter of the two has something like a quarter of its population in some kind of armed service, and has an explicit, official government policy (Songun) that states that the military gets first dibs on all the nation's resources, even if their people are starving in the streets! I'm less surprised that you think the USA isn't heavily militarized, as it actually is, with a vast military-industrial complex, huge standing armies (plus vast reserves and paramilitary groups such as JROTC), and soldiers that are endlessly glorified throughout the culture. Besides which, a militaristic society is not an anarchistic society; it is true that typically such militarism is strongly state-oriented, but the societies themselves are still strongly militarized. It does not manifest itself in the average person being able to acquire weapons and launch armed campaigns, since militarism and the military are always under state control. Certainly, you cannot go back to Nazi Germany or the modern DPRK and find examples of a single merchant ship captain being able to surreptitiously arm his vessel with weaponry capable of sinking entire fleets of ships. Militarism as an ideology is handed down from above; it does not grow up from below. To write off Nero's ability to somehow obtain and use advanced weaponry capable of destroying fleets of ships at a whim to the Romulans' being a militaristic society is therefore silly. It's also a tangent, and I think that by focusing on it we're losing sight of the greater point: it's absurd to have a civilian vessel so heavily armed.

We might also choose to invoke the battle mentioned on screen between the Klingons and the Narada (it's not explicitly identified by Uhura as the Narada, but it is clearly implied) in which the Narada was able to destroy forty-seven Klingon "warbirds." (Poster UFO has already mentioned this, but let's return to it). We don't know the circumstances under which the engagement occurred, but it too seems obviously absurd to suggest that a non-combat vessel could have accomplished this task, even against Klingon warships that were from an earlier time period (of course, we're assuming that it occurred as reported by Uhura). Do you wish to browse Wikipedia for a bit to try and find some kind of historical precedent for a single merchant ship being able to destroy such a massive fleet of warships?

The weapons used by the Narada are explicitly labeled "torpedoes" and "missiles," and because they are capable of successfully engaging military vessels, we can conclude that they, in fact, are military-grade weapons, which makes no sense for a civilian mining ship to have. You've just pulled a few examples of certain circumstances under which civilian vessels in the real world are armed, and I have already granted that a single such armed merchant vessel might be able to resist a single obsolete warship, but it is definitely not credible to suggest that such a vessel could defeat an entire fleet of obsolete warships. Fleet battleships around 1900 (the HMS Dreadnought was launched in 1906) absolutely would be able to comfortably defeat any such armed merchantman from our time period, ignoring that such vessels really don't exist anymore. It doesn't make sense to invoke such armed merchantmen, as I've said, because such vessels only exist within the context of active armed conflicts, where there's a definite threat posed by the armed forces of another nation state. Nobody simply arms their merchant vessels because they're "paranoid and militaristic," and they certainly do not arm their vessels with weapons that permit them to engage in serious offensive actions against enemy fleets (even ones with obsolete ships). I can buy that Romulan culture is different from my own, but we've got an entire universe of cultures here on Earth, and we can't find any examples that fit the mould provided by Nero and his gang. It simply doesn't make sense.

Still, I've already conceded that a single such warship might not be able to sink a single modern merchant vessel, but the idea that such a vessel could sink an entire fleet of ships is fundamentally absurd. Let's also keep in mind the fact that technology in the Star Trek universe tends to advance much more slowly than technology in the real world, to the point that vessels over a hundred years old are still in front-line service with Starfleet at certain points (this would never be the case in the real world), so to really make an appropriate comparison we'd have to compress time significantly; say reduce the 100 year window of comparison to 50 or even 25, because it takes Trek 100 years to advance on the same order as in the real world it takes us 50 or 25. None of the historical examples you have cited apply to the situation, for one reason or another (I'm not going to go into further detail because I'd rather not get bogged down in endless minutia and therefore lose sight of the larger point). It's just simply stupid. It would have been trivial for the writers to have Nero in command of a warship, but for some reason they just had to stick in a few lines of dialogue about him being a "simple miner," which have no impact whatsoever on the rest of the film. Because they made these decisions, we can simply conclude that they didn't care about the implications of their script, and to accomplish their goals with the film they didn't have to.

Let's also point to the design of the Narada as further evidence of the filmmakers' intent. Such a vessel, with so many spikes and tendrils snaking out from its exterior, and all sorts of internal platforms (with no railing) for no reason, with puddles of water everywhere and irregular patterns of greenish lighting, clearly point to the vessel being designed to look big and scary, without any thought given to the practicality of it, to the fact that it bears no apparent function. Like the script, including the parts where the Narada destroys warships, the aesthetics of the movie aren't designed to make sense; they're just designed to be visually impressive, to be loud and colorful.

You can flail about and bend over backwards trying to make sense of the movie, but as I have repeatedly stated (and you have repeatedly ignored), to do so is to miss the point of the entire movie. Ultimately, it is just a big, dumb action movie, not a Star Trek movie, and it's meant simply to entertain through mindless action. It's obviously and patently absurd, but it's not meant to be otherwise. Why can't you simply accept that?
 
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Hugh Mann said:
Just accept that the movie's plot and mechanics make no sense, and move on. To try and make sense of it is to completely miss the point of it, which is simply to entertain with, as Roger Ebert put it, loud and colorful action.
Hugh Mann said:
Like I've said earlier in this thread, stop trying to justify the unjustifiable. The movie's "plot" makes no sense, and it's not supposed to make sense. It's supposed to be loud, sexy, and filled with explosions. In my view, people who believe it makes sense, and bend over backwards trying to get it to make sense miss the point of the entire movie.
Hugh Mann said:
You can flail about and bend over backwards trying to make sense of the movie, but as I have repeatedly stated (and you have repeatedly ignored), to do so is to miss the point of the entire movie. Ultimately, it is just a big, dumb action movie, not a Star Trek movie, and it's meant simply to entertain through mindless action. It's obviously and patently absurd, but it's not meant to be otherwise. Why can't you simply accept that?
Because you haven't repeated it enough times.

as Roger Ebert put it

:lol:

not a Star Trek movie

FAIL.
 
Hugh Mann said:
Just accept that the movie's plot and mechanics make no sense, and move on. To try and make sense of it is to completely miss the point of it, which is simply to entertain with, as Roger Ebert put it, loud and colorful action.
Hugh Mann said:
Like I've said earlier in this thread, stop trying to justify the unjustifiable. The movie's "plot" makes no sense, and it's not supposed to make sense. It's supposed to be loud, sexy, and filled with explosions. In my view, people who believe it makes sense, and bend over backwards trying to get it to make sense miss the point of the entire movie.
Hugh Mann said:
You can flail about and bend over backwards trying to make sense of the movie, but as I have repeatedly stated (and you have repeatedly ignored), to do so is to miss the point of the entire movie. Ultimately, it is just a big, dumb action movie, not a Star Trek movie, and it's meant simply to entertain through mindless action. It's obviously and patently absurd, but it's not meant to be otherwise. Why can't you simply accept that?

Because you haven't repeated it enough times.
You forgot - it was in the opening sentence of his very first post, as well:

I'm enjoying all the posters in this thread who are determined to try and make sense of an utterly senseless movie.

Not quite a friendly beginning, even a tiny bit condescending, but at least you got a pretty good idea of where he was going to be coming from.

However, I really can't see the use of repeating the same point, over and over, ad infinitum, so the question now ought to be: Where do we go with it from here?

Is there anywhere to go? If not, the subject should probably be dropped before too many more iterations occur, and we could perhaps move on to something with greater potential for productive discussion.


...not a Star Trek movie...
Of course it was a Star Trek movie. Said so, right in the title.
 

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I repeat it because it's the central thesis of my participation in this discussion, and because it is repeatedly and consistently ignored. Maybe if it weren't ignored I wouldn't need to restate it. I don't really see what's wrong with restating the central argument, particularly when it's been so consistently ignored. Looking at the entirety of my posts, we can see that I am not simply stating the same point over and over again, but offering new points, wrapped in the original thesis, a thesis that is now being selectively quoted after having been previously ignored. We should engage with each other's posts, instead of choosing bits and pieces to pick apart, ignoring those that we don't feel like discussing.

If I came across as condescending in my original post in this thread, I apologize, as it was not my intent to convey an assertion that my opinion is in some way superior to any of yours. My opinion is just that, an opinion, and although I feel I've justified mine, I'm open to counter-opinions. I do, however, stand by my original assertion, that the idea of a civilian vessel being armed to the extent necessary to comfortably defeat an entire fleet of warships is absurd, and is in the film precisely because the film is a sci-fi action movie that doesn't have to make sense.

I do agree that our positions are probably irreconcilable, and in fact I was prepared to, with my next response to newtype_alpha's surely forthcoming reply, offer to agree to disagree and call it a day.

And no, it was not a Star Trek movie. Simply because it had "Star Trek" in the title does not make it a Star Trek movie. When I say that it is not a Star Trek movie, I don't mean to assert that it's not a part of the Star Trek franchise; that would of course be an absurd position to take. Instead, I mean that it it represents a complete reconfiguration of what Star Trek actually means, to the point that is is not recognizable as Star Trek in the same vein as previous iterations of the franchise (either film or TV). Featuring a ship named Enterprise, a Federation, Romulans, and a few characters with familiar names doesn't make it Star Trek. Weighty stories with moral and philosophical implications, featuring implicit commentary on some aspect of the human condition are properly considered Star Trek. The franchise has strayed before, true, but never to the extent that Abrams has dragged it off course. This is relevant to the thread because I believe that the design of the Narada is symptomatic of this.

Abrams' movie is Star Trek In Name Only.

Given that, as M'Sharak has noted, the potential for productive discussion is all but exhausted, I think it would be best if we moved on to other topics. However, I thank everyone for a spirited debate, and I look forward to further such debates on different topics in the future.
 
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Let's consider a modern day bulk carrier being sent back in time about 125 years. Let's consider that bulk carrier was commissioned by, say, Iran -- a rogue state that is engaged in an ongoing Cold War with just about everyone and expects to get invaded any moment. It's captain is already a couple of cards short of a full deck and spent a couple thousand dollars stocking up on old TOW missiles (20+ years obsolete, but better than nothing) which he has now lashed to the forecastle of his ship in case the Great Satan tries to start something.

I didn’t think Hugh Mann would get away with taking an unopposed shot at the arming of civil Romulan ships. :) I am certainly not going to die in the ditch attacking that issue myself but like one or two others you appear to be trying to down play the capabilities of the Narada. That’s understandable but I don’t think it holds up, either on the evidence, or without making a few additional assumptions such as the Klingon massacre never happening, or at least not as implied. Thing is, there is no hint given in the movie that it didn’t and the characters accept it as fact. But like most things there aren’t a lot of details, so there may be some unlikely loop holes.
 
You point out the longevity of the Kevin’s struggle, but that either doesn’t make sense or has been explained "satisfactorily" (by Nero not actually trying to kill it initially and being distracted by shuttles when he does get serious, as Timo suggested). We still need to paper over the problem of the Enterprise (reportedly) being only able to take one hit from those same missiles without being destroyed (or put out of action), had Nero not again called them off. But maybe that's too picky? Of course Sulu, like everyone else who had an opinion about the Narada, could have been mistaken I guess.
 
OK, the Kelvin had more warning than the "rescue fleet" but Nero still managed to destroy seven ships in what had to be well under one minute. It turns out the delay caused by the handbrake start was actually 40 seconds! And it really didn’t seem to matter much if they had their shields up or not given what happened to the Enterprise. Though there still must have been enough time to raise them. During TOS there never seemed to be this "surprise effect" when ships "came out of warp". But with that apparent change, I should imagine all crews would be prepared for anything as a matter of course, especially with so many unknowns about that rescue mission, even if they aren't at actual battlesations.
 
There are other questions such as whether the 125 year tech gap is a difference of kind or just of degree. TOW missiles have an electronic guidance system while 10 inch guns do not, for example. OTOH the difference between the Star Trek time periods seems more one of refinement. By the way, early TOWs could penetrate 430mm of armour I believe, almost twice the max thickness of the HMS Shannon. The only question is the relative range of each armament (about 3750m for TOWs I understand). But, if the Shannon can accurately out-range the bulk carrier, my money’s on the former. Thanks for the link by the way. :)
 
Incidentally, I agree with the view that we have to assume the Narada is normally armed like that. Nero wasn’t a nut job before Romulus was destroyed (as far as we can tell from the movie, even excluding cut scenes). Moreover, there appeared to be no time for him to arm his ship (assuming he would even considered it in his rage) before Spock turned up (also the Romulan system was destroyed of course).
 
No one in the movie assumes the Enterprise is a roughly equal match for the Narada and being in Starfleet its their job to assess such matters. Interesting we feel qualified to second gues them. Nor can we say they lack information. I mean after the battle at Vulcan, no one said: "What we should do next time is …". Of course the most effective strategy seemed to be to get Nero to fire his missiles at something other than the ship that was trying to destroy said missiles! ;)

How was it that the Narada got the drop on seven Federation starships again?

If I may, didn't that have something to do with the plot requiring the fleet, and for some reason the Enterprise, which knew better, to drop out of warp within a few kilometres of the Narada's position, instead of anywhere else in the system? :vulcan: Given the enemy were using missiles, it still shouldn't have happened. Not that the outcome would have differed! :lol:
 
I have to ask: why do you chop up posts into individual (sometimes half-) sentences and then deal with them as if they represent isolated points instead of part of a greater whole?
Because it makes my responses easier to read when you know specifically what question I am answering or what comments I am responding to. It also helps me to stick to the point, since I can read through your post again and focus on the parts that are relevant to what you're trying to say.

I'm not really sure what to say to you if you honestly believe that Nazi Germany and the DPRK are not examples of highly militarized societies
A society is not the same thing as a government. You forget that in both cases, the ONLY continuing factor in their militarization is the death grip that a particular political party had/has over their nation's institutions. In both cases, it wasn't society that drove the militaristic agenda -- that would be to imply the government was merely responding to the general wishes of the population, and in NEITHER case is that even remotely true. The most you can say about the Nazis is that they provided a series of convenient scapegoats that allowed relief from public unrest in the 1930s; that, again, is political maneuvering and governance, not a society-wide situation.

The Romulan Empire is not an otherwise peaceful society ruled by a hawkish autocracy. Quite the opposite, in fact, it is a warlike society ruled by an extremely pragmatic autocracy. Romulan society glorifies war and warriors to an extent that even the Klingons find jingoistic.

I'm less surprised that you think the USA isn't heavily militarized, as it actually is, with a vast military-industrial complex, huge standing armies (plus vast reserves and paramilitary groups such as JROTC), and soldiers that are endlessly glorified throughout the culture.
But even that isn't a militaristic society. We have an unfortunate tendency to glorify soldiers and weapons and strength of arms, reflected in our folklore, our movies and our music and our political discourse. But not quite to the extent that we glorify sex symbols, musicians, success stories, or the actors who play those militaristic figures in movies.

Besides which, a militaristic society is not an anarchistic society; it is true that typically such militarism is strongly state-oriented, but the societies themselves are still strongly militarized. It does not manifest itself in the average person being able to acquire weapons and launch armed campaigns, since militarism and the military are always under state control.
You have that completely backwards. A militaristic society is one in which the word "civilian" is a pejorative term, where acquiring weapons is a matter of civic virtue and launching (or at least participating in) armed campaigns is as natural as voting or paying your taxes. A militaristic society is one in which the military is the fulcrum on which public, political, financial and religious institutions turn.

Contrast with the United States, which is a mercantile society: everything we do revolves around commerce, trade, the fair exchange of goods. This is as true for us as it is for Nazi Germany, and it's equally true for North Korea, which is why their citizens are so fucking miserable instead of loudly applauding what an awesome government they have.

Militarism as an ideology is only "handed down from above" in societies that are NOT inherently militaristic. This was not the case for the Vikings or the Huns, for whom militarism legitimately was a way of life; if you were born to a Viking band, everybody you knew, from your parents and grandparents and siblings and cousins and friends and even your dog expected you to be a warrior or some benefit to the warriors' tasks. There was no dictatorship imposing it on the masses or heavy-handed gestapo to keep reminding everyone of their duties; if you didn't want to be a soldier, it was assumed you were some kind of pussy and a failure as a human being.

Certainly, you cannot go back to Nazi Germany or the modern DPRK and find examples of a single merchant ship captain being able to surreptitiously arm his vessel with weaponry capable of sinking entire fleets of ships.
Of course I can, if the ships he intends to sink are turn-of-the-19th-century schooners. Fighting with a fleet of ships contemporary with his own, though... he's boned.

We might also choose to invoke the battle mentioned on screen between the Klingons and the Narada (it's not explicitly identified by Uhura as the Narada, but it is clearly implied) in which the Narada was able to destroy forty-seven Klingon "warbirds." (Poster UFO has already mentioned this, but let's return to it). We don't know the circumstances under which the engagement occurred, but it too seems obviously absurd to suggest that a non-combat vessel could have accomplished this task, even against Klingon warships that were from an earlier time period
It is far from absurd, let alone "obviously" so. Primarily, the incident is described as an attack, not as a battle.

That's a pretty important difference in this context. The Bombing of Pearl Harbor, for example, was an attack. The destruction of the World Trade Center and the bombing of the Pentagon was an attack. The near-sinking of the USS Cole was an attack.

Battle is what happens when two ships engage each other and fire is exchanged. It's safe to assume that if the Klingons had managed any sort of counter-attack they would have blown the Narada out of the sky.

The weapons used by the Narada are explicitly labeled "torpedoes" and "missiles," and because they are capable of successfully engaging military vessels, we can conclude that they, in fact, are military-grade weapons
For all we know they're the same model of "ancient rockets" that Korris fired at the Klingon ship in "Heart of Glory."

Which is funny, because I had forgotten that the Batris was actually a Talarian FREIGHTER. There shouldn't be merchant vessels running around with weapons powerful enough to destroy warships... right?

Fleet battleships around 1900 (the HMS Dreadnought was launched in 1906) absolutely would be able to comfortably defeat any such armed merchantman from our time period
Indeed they could.

Which, if you care to remember, is what ultimately happened to the Narada.

Nobody simply arms their merchant vessels because they're "paranoid and militaristic,"
The Talarians do. Why not the Romulans?

Still, I've already conceded that a single such warship might not be able to sink a single modern merchant vessel, but the idea that such a vessel could sink an entire fleet of ships is fundamentally absurd.
In direct combat with both sides armed and ready? Clearly not. In a sneak attack where one side doesn't even know it's BEING attacked and the other side is equipped with a weapon of mass destruction? Nothing absurd about that.

It's just simply stupid. It would have been trivial for the writers to have Nero in command of a warship
If Nero had commanded a warship, he would have had the Enterprise for breakfast lunch and dinner, and the only thing stopping him would be his own manic incompetence (we already saw that scenario; it's called "Star Trek: Nemesis").

Nero didn't have superior technology on his side, and this wasn't that kind of story. Nero wasn't a fleet captain, but a TERRORIST; his singular advantage was that nobody had any idea who he was or what he was up to, and his singular success is owed to the fact that he blindsided a hastily-arranged rescue mission that had no idea he was there. He could not -- and DID not -- depend on his superior firepower winning all his battles, or else he would have simply stormed over to Earth guns blazing and demanded their surrender (e.g. Hoshi Sato in the mirror universe).

Like the script, including the parts where the Narada destroys warships, the aesthetics of the movie aren't designed to make sense; they're just designed to be visually impressive, to be loud and colorful.
Indeed. And the Narada is intended to be a ship that is a lot more menacing than it is potent.
 
No one in the movie assumes the Enterprise is a roughly equal match for the Narada and being in Starfleet its their job to assess such matters. Interesting we feel qualified to second gues them.
We know things they don't. In point of fact, we know that a number of assumptions made by the Enterprise crew turned out to be either slightly off or disastrously wrong, it's made explicit throughout the story that they don't fully understand what's happening right up until the final climactic scene.

Spock, for example, implies early on that "the technology used to create an artificial black hole" suggests time travel as a possibility; it never occurs to him that the Narada traveled through time by accident and acquired that technology only after its arrival. Likewise, Scotty's assumption about the design of the Narada is disastrously flawed; from his point of view, the ship's design makes no sense, which is why he wound up beaming Kirk and Spock into a roomful of armed Romulans.

We're qualified to second guess them, in other words, because WE are behind the fourth wall and we can see what's happening in the next room when they can't. In that sense, Nero's admission to Pike that the Narada is a "simple mining vessel" who -- like the rest of us until that point -- must have assumed it was some kind of funky alien dreadnaut packed to the gills with missiles. Turns out "Narada" is just Romulan for "Nostromo," which explains alot when you think about it.

Of course the most effective strategy seemed to be to get Nero to fire his missiles at something other than the ship that was trying to destroy said missiles!
Not even that. Turns out Nero's missiles are sufficiently slow-moving that they can be targeted and destroyed with phaser fire. In that sense, it isn't so much the lack of shields that was the problem, but the lack of weapons readiness when the shooting started.

Those seven ships holding a defensive formation probably could have overlapped their phaser coverage, screened against Nero's entire arsenal and them smashed him to bits with photon torpedoes. They would have made short work of the Narada... if only their first clue to its existence was something OTHER than a Macross-style missile shower smacking them right in the balls.

How was it that the Narada got the drop on seven Federation starships again?

If I may, didn't that have something to do with the plot requiring the fleet, and for some reason the Enterprise, which knew better, to drop out of warp within a few kilometres of the Narada's position, instead of anywhere else in the system? :vulcan:
The relative position is pretty suspect, but we've been saying that about Star Trek for decades.
 
Okay, I know I said I'd step away, but I just can't resist one last post.

There are no parts of my post that aren't relevant to what I'm trying to say, else I wouldn't have included them. If you intend to reply to this post, please reply to the entire thing. Now that you know that it annoys me to chop up my post and reply to it line by line, please don't do it, and extend to me the courtesy of accommodating my (very minor) requests.

I really think you should realize that your use of the term militarism is fundamentally wrong, or at least so limited that it may as well be wrong. You're focusing on an extremely narrow definition of militarism and ignoring all others, when a militarized society is also one in which there is a strong military spirit or a policy of retaining a large military in government. By any reasonable measure, all of the societies I've mentioned are strongly militaristic, unless you willfully choose to ignore the very common definition of the word militarism and insist instead on a highly exclusionary one. Furthermore, if you are going to seriously assert that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (a society where the supreme leader has no official position in politics and is instead the commander in chief of the military, where something on the order of a quarter of the population is either in active service or reserve, and where the military is given the lion's share of the resources even while civilians starve in the streets) is not highly militarized, then I don't know what to tell you.

Besides which, you're taking my initial analogy (modern day cargo vessel versus 100-year-old warships) way too far. Of course it falls apart at some point if you take it far enough, and of course it's not perfect. If it were, it wouldn't be an analogy, and would instead be the thing it's trying to describe. Taking the initial analogy so far is to lose sight of the greater point, that the backstory behind the Narada and its capabilities make no sense just like essentially everything else in the movie, in the absurdity of it all. Having to invent all sorts of curious "contexts" within which the movie's events might make sense (but still don't) doesn't exactly help prove that the movie isn't nonsensical.

Thank you for the reply though. I've enjoyed this discussion, and I hope you have as well.

There, that's it for me in this thread, I swear.
 
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By any reasonable measure, all of the societies I've mentioned are strongly militaristic, unless you willfully choose to ignore the very common definition of the word militarism
How about the very common definition of the word "society" which you are choosing to ignore?

Put that another way: would you say the United States is or has been a highly racist society? Most people I know would not, despite the fact that racism is notorious for being highly prevalent in American society for a long time, because it is not something we unanimously embraced, even when Jim Crow was the law of the land and "Birth of a Nation" was considered a really good movie.

This is because a SOCIETY is a fairly nebulous thing, and you cannot ascribe characteristics to an entire society unless it is UNIVERSAL in almost every aspect of it. When you talk about a "militaristic society" you're talking about a society in which military matters are the center of their day-to-day lives in a very fundamental way, such that that even the most casual aspects of that society -- things as simple as cooking meals and cleaning your house -- are affected by that mindset.

That is clearly not the meaning you're using for "militaristic society," which doesn't change much, because it is what I am referring to when I say Romulus is a militaristic society. One way or the other, that means Romulus is militaristic in ways that make Nazi Germany look like a rugby team; to expect their mining vessels -- the ships primarily responsible for the empire's natural resources -- not to be heavily armed is like going to Saudi Arabia and acting surprised that so many people pray in public.

Furthermore, if you are going to seriously assert that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (a society where the supreme leader has no official position in politics and is instead the commander in chief of the military, where something on the order of a quarter of the population is either in active service or reserve, and where the military is given the lion's share of the resources even while civilians starve in the streets) is not highly militarized, then I don't know what to tell you. You either do not know what militarism is, or what the DPRK is, or both.
North Korea is a militaristic country, vis a vis the policies of its government and state apparatus. That doesn't tell me much about their SOCIETY, which has alot more to do with how its citizens treat the world.

Besides which, you're taking my initial analogy (modern day cargo vessel versus 100-year-old warships) way too far.
Then let's narrow the focus down a bit.

The Talarian freighter Batris -- manned by three rogue Klingons on the run from the law -- is equipped with enough firepower to destroy an unshielded Klingon cruiser in the 24th century. Assuming the cruiser they destroyed is an old K'tinga class and hasn't been upgraded for a hundred years, there is your Trek precedent: merchant vessels DO have the kind of firepower you insist is "absurd."

Batris, of course, is about a hundred meters long and manufactured by the technologically backwards Talarians. Narada, on the other hand, is several kilometers long and manufactured by the Romulan Star Empire; aside from being inherently more powerful than the Batris, it can undeniably carry a larger number of missiles. It is, in other words, the equivalent of twenty Batris-type vessels all welded together and sharing a warp engine.

So that's that. Freighters CAN sucker punch starships if they get a chance, so there's not much to reason that a very large freighter couldn't pull off the same trick on a larger scale.

At least, it seems to work reasonably well on the Klingons.:rommie:
 
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You seem to think the Narada’s forward facing weapon system is a major issue. [..] I agree it doesn’t seem ideal from a military standpoint but perhaps that’s why they chose missiles rather than beam weapons?

It appears to be a universal feature of the Star Trek universe that a warship prefers to face another warship from the front, and point her bow at the enemy. Exclusively forward-pointing main weapons, especially missile weapons, are a common solution. Indeed, Robau probably chose to face his opponent that way exactly because he believed all warships would be designed with frontal confrontations in mind - that is, they would have few weaknesses on the flanks or the rear, but might have to compromise on frontal defenses in order to include the necessary offenses.

That's speculation; face-to-face confrontation of warships by mutual choice is a Trek fact. So a forward-only-armed Narada could still be a dedicated warship by the rules of the Trek universe.

In any case, a key fact about the armament balance shown in the movie was that Nero's weapons could penetrate military shields, which surprised the hell out of our heroes[/i], whereas Starfleet (and future Vulcan) weapons could penetrate Nero's shields, which surprised nobody. That balance or imbalance alone would explain Nero's ability to defeat military vessels that didn't pull their act together - but it would also mean Nero's slow but assured destruction in case he didn't kill all the threats quickly enough. All that is consistent with what we see, and only gets complicated by the one thing we hear, about Nero killing 47 assorted Klingon warships elsewhere and unseen.

What some attribute to luck I might attribute to audacity, then. Nero's known victories are based on first strikes, ambushes and quick elimination of the opponent. All prolonged struggles and stalemates go in his disfavor, sometimes extremely so - mere handguns and small craft pose a deadly threat to him, showing how imbalanced his capabilities and tactics are. As would be fitting for a civilian in a civilian vessel.

Timo Saloniemi
 
And no, it was not a Star Trek movie. Simply because it had "Star Trek" in the title does not make it a Star Trek movie. When I say that it is not a Star Trek movie, I don't mean to assert that it's not a part of the Star Trek franchise; that would of course be an absurd position to take. Instead, I mean that it it represents a complete reconfiguration of what Star Trek actually means, to the point that is is not recognizable as Star Trek in the same vein as previous iterations of the franchise (either film or TV). Featuring a ship named Enterprise, a Federation, Romulans, and a few characters with familiar names doesn't make it Star Trek. Weighty stories with moral and philosophical implications, featuring implicit commentary on some aspect of the human condition are properly considered Star Trek. The franchise has strayed before, true, but never to the extent that Abrams has dragged it off course. This is relevant to the thread because I believe that the design of the Narada is symptomatic of this.

Abrams' movie is Star Trek In Name Only.
Look at Spock's story arc. He's a closeted "emotional" that comes out in the end and is accepted for who he really is and not what society expects him to be. Tell me THAT'S not an important message for today's world.

Besides, Star Trek was created as a vehicle to tell limitless stories. To say it's only about the pretentious ones is grossly incorrect.
 
Weighty stories with moral and philosophical implications, featuring implicit commentary on some aspect of the human condition are properly considered Star Trek. The franchise has strayed before, true, but never to the extent that Abrams has dragged it off course.

STXI isn't any farther off that description than, say, TWOK.
 
There are no parts of my post that aren't relevant to what I'm trying to say, else I wouldn't have included them. If you intend to reply to this post, please reply to the entire thing. Now that you know that it annoys me to chop up my post and reply to it line by line, please don't do it, and extend to me the courtesy of accommodating my (very minor) requests.

That's how many people answer other people's posts. Just because you happen to think that every single word and phrase you write is important, by no means would we think the same thing, if we're only replying to specific items in your post that we find relevant. If you don't like it, then perhaps you shouldn't be posting on forums.
 
Instead, I mean that it it represents a complete reconfiguration of what Star Trek actually means, to the point that is is not recognizable as Star Trek in the same vein as previous iterations of the franchise (either film or TV).


That, by the way ,is a GOOD THING!

Old Trek like TNG , Voyager and the movies from Generations to Nemesis are obsolete. People don't turn on the TV to expect a lecture on human rights versus personal gain. That's what philosophy class is for. TV and media is supposed to be entertaining, and what happened with Star Trek was that it became the sci-fi version of Christianity;it started off fresh and pure in mission, but as time went on it got weighed down by time and tradition. Long speeches by the protagonist about personal ethics might have been good TV in the Woodstock era, but today it comes off as unbelievably pretentious .

The world's changed a lot since the 60's, and Trek needed to be updated to modern times and audiences. The idea of technology changing man's ills is cute, but so far its been proven to be a false idealogy. Thus the utopia concept of the Federation being this pure do-gooder society which always makes the ethical choice comes off as severely unrealistic and downright fake.

That obsolete theme, combined with tired tropes like transporter malfunctions, holodeck failures ( The Enterprise D's holodeck could qualify for a Lemon Law replacement! :rofl:) , "we're the only ship available sir", and plots which flat out don't make sense like a villain trying to kill his blood donor are why a clean-sheet reboot was needed. Much like an actual computer, Trek had accumulated too many errors and needed a re-start.
 
I don't think the world was ready for a clean-sheet reboot of Star Trek. They were lucky to get away with some of the things they DID change, IMO.

Space opera is still alive in American cinema, but for the most part it's hanging by a thread. Star Trek -- ironically -- jumped to the head of the class and made it fresh again, but the day will come when even Star Trek has to be gutted and totally reinvented to make it attractive to new audiences.
 
There are no parts of my post that aren't relevant to what I'm trying to say, else I wouldn't have included them. If you intend to reply to this post, please reply to the entire thing. Now that you know that it annoys me to chop up my post and reply to it line by line, please don't do it, and extend to me the courtesy of accommodating my (very minor) requests.

That's how many people answer other people's posts. Just because you happen to think that every single word and phrase you write is important, by no means would we think the same thing, if we're only replying to specific items in your post that we find relevant. If you don't like it, then perhaps you shouldn't be posting on forums.

Besides, if we quoted km-long posts in their entirety every single friggin time, we'd end up with colossal tl;dr every single thread. It's hard enough to keep track as it is.

People do this to make the discussions easier to read, not to undermine anyone's opinion.
 
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