Romulan discovery

[Grup]

There are so many threads about how, where and when the Roms were discovered that I'll let the mods put this wherever they want.

Apparently the Vulcans know that Roms and Vulcans are related right? The Vulcans are part of the Federation, right? Now aside from any current status (i.e. military capabilities, government etc) wouldn't the Vulcans have been obligated to offer up any and all known knowledge of the Romulans? I'd be really pissed if the first time I encountered them my first officer said "Oh yea, we forgot to tell you. We're kinda, sorta related to these guys. Oops. Our bad."

So (IMO) the Federation (at least in this movie) could have had some knowledge of the Roms and not the complete oblivion that was in the original time line.

 

[James Bond]

Yeah TOS really screwed up on that one.

 

[startrekwatcher]

There are so many threads about how, where and when the Roms were discovered that I'll let the mods put this wherever they want.

Apparently the Vulcans know that Roms and Vulcans are related right? The Vulcans are part of the Federation, right? Now aside from any current status (i.e. military capabilities, government etc) wouldn't the Vulcans have been obligated to offer up any and all known knowledge of the Romulans? I'd be really pissed if the first time I encountered them my first officer said "Oh yea, we forgot to tell you. We're kinda, sorta related to these guys. Oops. Our bad."

So (IMO) the Federation (at least in this movie) could have had some knowledge of the Roms and not the complete oblivion that was in the original time line.

Yes. It was too bad the writers didn't mention more about the Romulan/Federation relations and what they exactly knew in the film.

 

[Shim]

I thought I'd read somewhere that the Vulcans didn't know who, specifically, the Romulans were... that over the millennia they became a kind of myth in Vulcan culture.

Look at it this way... The Romulans left Vulcan at around the time Surak began teaching stuff. By the time of ENT, the Vulcans had largely forgotten the truth of Surak's teachings and were adhering to some weird variant of his life code, the true version of which was restored by the Syrannites.

What I'm getting at is, if they can forget the original teachings of the man who singlehandedly established Vulcan culture, they could quite easily forget/mythologise those Vulcans who left at the same time those teachings first appeared.

 

[startrekwatcher]

I thought I'd read somewhere that the Vulcans didn't know who, specifically, the Romulans were... that over the millennia they became a kind of myth in Vulcan culture.

Look at it this way... The Romulans left Vulcan at around the time Surak began teaching stuff. By the time of ENT, the Vulcans had largely forgotten the truth of Surak's teachings and were adhering to some weird variant of his life code, the true version of which was restored by the Syrannites.

What I'm getting at is, if they can forget the original teachings of the man who singlehandedly established Vulcan culture, they could quite easily forget/mythologise those Vulcans who left at the same time those teachings first appeared.

That's my take on it as well. I'm sure the Vulcans just assumed that those that left died off. Little did they realize that they colonized a world and built up an empire and had every intention of reclaiming Vulcan. As we saw in ENT, the Romulans had infiltrated Vulcan society and was trying to subvert it.

 

[Shim]

That's my take on it as well. I'm sure the Vulcans just assumed that those that left died off. Little did they realize that they colonized a world and built up an empire and had every intention of reclaiming Vulcan. As we saw in ENT, the Romulans had infiltrated Vulcan society and was trying to subvert it.

Gotta love 'em... sneaky bastards. The most underutilised badguys of all Trek series.

 

[Akalabeth]

Why do the Romulans have the technology to migrated hundreds or thousands of light years a millenia ago yet in TOS they fly ships without Warp Drive????

In the TOS era the Romulans and Vulcans should both be flying the equivalent of the Enterprise J.

 

[TrekGuide.com]

Gotta love 'em... sneaky bastards. The most underutilised badguys of all Trek series.

That would be the Breen.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Why do the Romulans have the technology to migrated hundreds or thousands of light years a millenia ago yet in TOS they fly ships without Warp Drive????

That's a whole other debate, with one possibility being that in Balance Of Terror, Scotty didn't intend to say that the ship didn't have Warp drive at all.
Another possibility was, that only that ship didn't have Warp drive, due to the experimental cloak.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I thought I'd read somewhere that the Vulcans didn't know who, specifically, the Romulans were... that over the millennia they became a kind of myth in Vulcan culture.

I don't think that's canon, but it's a good guess.

1. Anti-Surak Vulcans leave in a huff 2000 years ago, never to be seen again.

2. Vulcans occasionally wonder whatever happened to the jerks. Most likely died out there in space somehow. But you know how myths grow...bigfoot, Elvis, Romulans...the Vulcans might expect the defectors to show up again, someday. Other alien cultures such as humans might have heard of the defectors but don't pay it much heed.

3. Nasty aliens who don't show their faces attack Vulcans' ally, Earth. Nobody knows why, or who these aliens are, other than that they call themselves "Romulans" (a name that wouldn't necessarily mean anything to Vulcans). As far as anyone knows, they could be any random aggressive alien race. The galaxy is full of them. Unless there's a reason to link the "Romulans" and anti-Surak defectors, no one's the wiser.

4. If the Romulan and Vulcan languages are similar (a new bit of canon introduced in this movie), then that might change the scenario a great deal. Now we have to believe that nobody - human or Vulcan - saw the Romulans' faces or heard their language in all the years between the Earth-Romulan war and Balance of Terror.

5. Some Vulcan mucky-mucks might have suspected the truth (maybe only the Vulcan Science Academy got snippets of that elusive Romulan language?) but felt it wiser to keep quiet because they didn't trust their emotionally volatile and none-too-bright human allies not to go off the rails about it.

6. And it does matter that the Vulcans knew the truth and kept quiet, because the fact that Romulans are descended from anti-Surak defectors gives them a motive to attack not just Vulcan but also allies like Earth. If that was the motive for the Earth-Romulan War, then no wonder the Vulcans kept quiet. They didn't want to get blamed. Who know how solid the alliance was at the time, either.

My assumption is that some people at high levels of Vulcan and Starfleet knew who the Romulans were, and kept that knowledge secret. When the connection became public - safely long after the end of the Earth-Romulan War - they acted as surprised as everyone else.

 

[urbandk]

Why do the Romulans have the technology to migrated hundreds or thousands of light years a millenia ago yet in TOS they fly ships without Warp Drive????

That's a whole other debate, with one possibility being that in Balance Of Terror, Scotty didn't intend to say that the ship didn't have Warp drive at all.
Another possibility was, that only that ship didn't have Warp drive, due to the experimental cloak.

OK basically. not to have warp drive would have been impossible. unless the E engaged the Romulan ship in the Romulan system or immediately outside it, a ship without warp would have been impossible.

it was a TOS error.

 

[pookha]

i still think a giant coverup after the earth romulan war makes sense.
there would have been bodies out in space.
i could see how the vast majority of people didnt know but some where along the way some bodies would have been beamed aboard to do an autopsy and learn more about their enemy.

 

[Sharr Khan]

As much as I love BoT for its DRAMA I'm am sort of glad that it shall never unfold in this new universe. I guess we could say that the Kelvin Incident took its place here, not that they spend much time contemplating who was killing them. We though are left with the impression that after the Kelvin Starfleet did a bit of homework. Likely Romulas response was as a rather confused one not aware of a rogue future ship that stood apart from the Star Empire.

Sharr

 

[Praetor]

Gotta love 'em... sneaky bastards. The most underutilised badguys of all Trek series.

That would be the Breen.

No no, Shim had it right.

"Tholian" would also be an acceptable answer.

I thought I'd read somewhere that the Vulcans didn't know who, specifically, the Romulans were... that over the millennia they became a kind of myth in Vulcan culture.

I don't think that's canon, but it's a good guess.

1. Anti-Surak Vulcans leave in a huff 2000 years ago, never to be seen again.

2. Vulcans occasionally wonder whatever happened to the jerks. Most likely died out there in space somehow. But you know how myths grow...bigfoot, Elvis, Romulans...the Vulcans might expect the defectors to show up again, someday. Other alien cultures such as humans might have heard of the defectors but don't pay it much heed.

3. Nasty aliens who don't show their faces attack Vulcans' ally, Earth. Nobody knows why, or who these aliens are, other than that they call themselves "Romulans" (a name that wouldn't necessarily mean anything to Vulcans). As far as anyone knows, they could be any random aggressive alien race. The galaxy is full of them. Unless there's a reason to link the "Romulans" and anti-Surak defectors, no one's the wiser.

4. If the Romulan and Vulcan languages are similar (a new bit of canon introduced in this movie), then that might change the scenario a great deal. Now we have to believe that nobody - human or Vulcan - saw the Romulans' faces or heard their language in all the years between the Earth-Romulan war and Balance of Terror.

5. Some Vulcan mucky-mucks might have suspected the truth (maybe only the Vulcan Science Academy got snippets of that elusive Romulan language?) but felt it wiser to keep quiet because they didn't trust their emotionally volatile and none-too-bright human allies not to go off the rails about it.

6. And it does matter that the Vulcans knew the truth and kept quiet, because the fact that Romulans are descended from anti-Surak defectors gives them a motive to attack not just Vulcan but also allies like Earth. If that was the motive for the Earth-Romulan War, then no wonder the Vulcans kept quiet. They didn't want to get blamed. Who know how solid the alliance was at the time, either.

My assumption is that some people at high levels of Vulcan and Starfleet knew who the Romulans were, and kept that knowledge secret. When the connection became public - safely long after the end of the Earth-Romulan War - they acted as surprised as everyone else.

Well thought out as always, Temis. And agreed.

It's like those distant cousins you don't see for a while. Suddenly, you've won the lottery and they show up, trying to off you and steal your wife.

It's the Romulan way.

Why do the Romulans have the technology to migrated hundreds or thousands of light years a millenia ago yet in TOS they fly ships without Warp Drive????

That's a whole other debate, with one possibility being that in Balance Of Terror, Scotty didn't intend to say that the ship didn't have Warp drive at all.
Another possibility was, that only that ship didn't have Warp drive, due to the experimental cloak.

OK basically. not to have warp drive would have been impossible. unless the E engaged the Romulan ship in the Romulan system or immediately outside it, a ship without warp would have been impossible.

it was a TOS error.

Especially when you consider the ship had warp nacelles. Obvious ones. That looked almost identical to those of the Enterprise. (From the dropped military espionage subplot.)

 

[KeptinChris]

Maybe they don't discuss it with outsiders.

 

[Akalabeth]

Yeah but irregardless, they've had warp drive for 2 thousand more years than the Federation but they're on the same tech level? I don't think so.

 

[gastrof]

With regards to the Vulcans knowing who the Romulans were, in BoT Spock taps into the Romulan bridge camera(s), and gets as much of a surprise as everyone else. He later says "IF they are an ancient offshoot of the Vulcan race, that makes them all the more dangerous and we must prevent them from reporting what they've learned about us".

Notice...."IF".

Even then he wasn't absolutely sure, so at the time at least HE hadn't already known. (Unless he was...umm..."exaggerating"?)

As for this movie, stuff left out includes Nero's ship (disabled by the Kelvin crashing into it) being captured by Klingons, and Nero and his men spending 25 years as prisoners and slaves. My guess is that during that time the Klingons found out who they'd captured, and word spread.

"So....Romlans look like Vulcans, have green blood, and in every medical check we've done they match up pretty much exactly. Could they be related?"

Some of Nero's men may have even boasted how they'd survived for thousands of years after leaving Vulcan and made themselves into an Empire.

It's an easy explain, this is. Wish it'd been better addressed in the film, but it does seem that by the time the characters plainly discuss the connection, there'd been plenty of time for everyone to have found out about it "early".

 

[gastrof]

Why do the Romulans have the technology to migrated hundreds or thousands of light years a millenia ago yet in TOS they fly ships without Warp Drive????

In the TOS era the Romulans and Vulcans should both be flying the equivalent of the Enterprise J.

Scotty said they had impulse POWER, not an inability to travel at warp.

It'd be silly to think they'd gotten out in space without warp drive.

Also, in TNG it was explained Romulan ships didn't use matter/anti-matter as a power source, but rather artificial mini black holes. (?!?!?!?!)

In the TOS era, it's possible Scotty didn't even recognize that power source was there, and simply noted they didn't have matter/anti-matter.

After all, apparently you CAN achieve warp without m/a-m. I can imagine Cochrane didn't have matter/anti-matter in that converted missle he did his first warp flight in. I've always understood him to have used atomic power to achieve warp 1.

As for creating artificial black holes, a nice touch that it was such tech that was used to stop the supernova and in the end destroy Nero's ship.

 

[Captain Fine]

Maybe in this new timeline Romulus will join the Federation to take Vulcan's place? After Reunification of course.

 

[Praetor]

Yeah but irregardless, they've had warp drive for 2 thousand more years than the Federation but they're on the same tech level? I don't think so.

Not as implausible as you suppose.

First, it's been speculated that they first arrived at Romulus in impulse "arks." So the Vulcans and Romulans may have developed warp independently, and on different timetables. The Empire has been said many times to be resource-poor, so it's entirely possible they did not develop warp drive until "recently."

Additionally, regarding "simple impulse," if dilithium was a rare commodity, I think it's likely that TOS-era ships used fusion-based warp, which to Scotty might read as "simple impulse" despite the presence of those nacelles. Alternatively, Scotty may have been commenting that they were only operating at impulse while under cloak due to the cloak's power consumption.

Maybe in this new timeline Romulus will join the Federation to take Vulcan's place? After Reunification of course.

I'd enjoy a TNG-era story in which the Vulcans allow some Romulans to repatriate back to Vulcan, and it becomes a point of contention within the Federation. The remaining Romulan government probably wouldn't be too happy about it, either.