Rogue One questions

[Gaith]

How else would Saw have wound up in the film to begin with?

I'll do you one better: why include Saw to begin with? He didn't really do anything anyhow, besides take up screen time that could have been spent organically developing Jyn's character. The defector pilot could have gone straight to the Alliance.

Or, Saw could have been combined with General Draven.

 

[fireproof78]

I'll do you one better: why include Saw to begin with? He didn't really do anything anyhow, besides take up screen time that could have been spent organically developing Jyn's character. The defector pilot could have gone straight to the Alliance.

Or, Saw could have been combined with General Draven.

Yeah. Saw feels largely useless in the film.

 

[Gaith]

Picture this: instead of being abducted into the Rebels, Jyn seeks them out, intent on avenging her parents (she thinks Krennic killed them both). She witnesses an ideological debate between Mon Mothma and General Draven: Mothma wants to fight cleanly and honorably, whereas Draven is fine with collateral, Imperial-favoring civilian casualties. Being full of anger, Jyn sides with Draven, and they come to respect each other.

Then, when Draven gives Cassian the secret order to kill Galen rather than risk failing to capture him alive, it's a personal betrayal to Jyn, who realizes that, while Mothma is asking them to assume greater personal risks, her philosophy of honorable combat is the right one. She then leads the mission to find the Death Star plans, as that kind of battle station can only have been built to punish civilians and entire planets, the least honorable kind of warfare imaginable.

Boom. Much better movie, and no Saw.

 

[JD]

What leapt out to me on my second viewing was the narrative convenience/laziness of having the daughter of the Death Star's architect be the adopted kid of a major insurrectionist the Alliance is trying to make contact with. Granted, famous and notable people are often linked through family and/or close friendships in the real world, but it just didn't make for a very compelling story.

It's not that ridiculous, Saw was the one who got them away from the Empire.

I'll do you one better: why include Saw to begin with? He didn't really do anything anyhow, besides take up screen time that could have been spent organically developing Jyn's character. The defector pilot could have gone straight to the Alliance.

Or, Saw could have been combined with General Draven.

Saw was in the movie to give Jyn and emotional connection to the destruction of Jedha, and to establish that she was a trained fighter who had worked against the Empire in the past.
Saw's death was the first step toward Jyn fully committing herself to The Rebellion.

 

[Gaith]

^ A sequence of narrative events can make rudimentary sense and be boring and lacking in dramatic interest.

 

[publiusr]

Now I want to know what a Death Star without the flaw would look like.

I’m thinking a moon like Mimas influenced the design. Now, I might put the Dish in the South Pole with the Emperor’s spire opposite. The decks would be concentricl nested spheres with no linear cooling vents on the outside. The nested spheres aren’t perfectly nested, they would narrow to the inner dish guys becoming larger interior Arecibo dishes within.

No straight avenues of access. Thoughts?

 

[Ithekro]

In theory, the Second Death Star removed (or plugged) the design flaw of the thermal exhaust port. This add-on was I think what Wedge attacked with his X-wing prior to Lando taking out the main reactor.

 

[publiusr]

I have a feeling that was under construction...

 

[Reverend]

The exhaust port wasn't really the flaw, at least not the one Galen put there. The flaw was an instability in the reactor module. The exhaust port was just the means of accessing it, Galen had nothing to do with it (hence needing to analyse the structural plans to find it.) Indeed they rather lucked out since without such a direct (if unlikely) shot, the only other way they could have pulled it off that I can think of, would be a suicidal commando raid where multiple teams would (somehow) board the station. Fight their way to the reactor module and plant a charge big enough to set off that chain reaction. Mind you, given how big that place is and how the Imperials struggled to chase down a mere handful of intruders does rather expose the weakness of the internal security on that thing. So I suppose getting the teams on the station is the hard part; once inside they can run rings around the storm troopers.

Point being; "fixing" the exhaust port for the DSII doesn't really fix the problem, it just makes it slightly more of an impossible task. Remember the Alliance sent in 30 ships, of which only 3 returned, and a force sensitive pilot AND a self serving smuggler suddenly growing a conscience was what really won the day.

 

[David cgc]

Point being; "fixing" the exhaust port for the DSII doesn't really fix the problem, it just makes it slightly more of an impossible task. Remember the Alliance sent in 30 ships, of which only 3 returned, and a force sensitive pilot AND a self serving smuggler suddenly growing a conscience was what really won the day.

My suspicion is that the "power regulator" Wedge had to destroy before the Falcon hit the reactor itself on the second Death Star was the patch for Galen's design flaw. I know I've seen other people draw the same conclusion, but I don't think any official/canon source has used that retcon. Galen himself seemed to think it was entirely possible they could've just built a different reactor that would still work and not explode if you looked at it the wrong way, but I guess the Empire didn't want to wait another twenty years to finish building a replacement Death Star (assuming it wasn't already under construction when the first one was finished. Why build one, when you can have two for twice the price?).

 

[Reverend]

My suspicion is that the "power regulator" Wedge had to destroy before the Falcon hit the reactor itself on the second Death Star was the patch for Galen's design flaw. I know I've seen other people draw the same conclusion, but I don't think any official/canon source has used that retcon. Galen himself seemed to think it was entirely possible they could've just built a different reactor that would still work and not explode if you looked at it the wrong way, but I guess the Empire didn't want to wait another twenty years to finish building a replacement Death Star (assuming it wasn't already under construction when the first one was finished. Why build one, when you can have two for twice the price?).

Honestly when you have ships flying around *inside* the reactor superstructure letting warheads off all over the place, the idea of a technical flaw becomes rather moot. I mean name one nuclear reactor design that could handle a high yield explosive charge going off smack in the middle of the fuel rod assemble and NOT melt down as a result. Or for a more relatable analogy; no amount of safely measures is going to stop a car from going up in flames if some bugger sets fire to the fuel tank.

The Second Death Star's flaw was Palpatine's hubris. He wanted to crush the Alliance, bring Vader to heel and/or replace him, do it all in one single move, AND be there to see it happen, just like the old days.
To be fair he covered most of his bases; the station had an energy field so exhaust ports and reactor assemblies are moot concerns. The shield generator was parked on some essentially uninhabited moon in the arse end of nowhere, guarded by and entire Legion, with a whole fleet in orbit for good measure. Also don't forget the not so minor "fully armed and operational" green sylop in the hole. From a tactical standpoint, nothing the Rebels had could hope to get through, and by committing at all, they'd be toast..in theory.
His miscalculation was threefold; he dismissed the capabilities of the native population and he dismissed the idea that Anakin was still in there somewhere, and that Luke could reach him.

 

[fireproof78]

My suspicion is that the "power regulator" Wedge had to destroy before the Falcon hit the reactor itself on the second Death Star was the patch for Galen's design flaw. I know I've seen other people draw the same conclusion, but I don't think any official/canon source has used that retcon. Galen himself seemed to think it was entirely possible they could've just built a different reactor that would still work and not explode if you looked at it the wrong way, but I guess the Empire didn't want to wait another twenty years to finish building a replacement Death Star (assuming it wasn't already under construction when the first one was finished. Why build one, when you can have two for twice the price?).

I think the weapon was what kept things slowed down. Once the Empire had that down then building more that could be capable once completed (or near completion) would be minor.

 

[Shawnster]

the Imperials struggled to chase down a mere handful of intruders does rather expose the weakness of the internal security on that thing

Except that "They let us go. It was the only reason for the ease of our escape." And the homing beacon on the Falcon makes it obvious Tarkin and Vader wanted the "handful of intruders" to escape.

 

[Reverend]

Except that "They let us go. It was the only reason for the ease of our escape." And the homing beacon on the Falcon makes it obvious Tarkin and Vader wanted the "handful of intruders" to escape.

That just refers to the mere handful of TIEs that went after them.
It's fairly evident that the decision to let them go likely wasn't made until *after* Vader's duel with Kenobi. We saw Tarkin and Vader's initial reaction to the breakout; the former ordered every station on alert and the latter was determined to confront Kenobi. Hell, Tarkin literally says "they must not be allowed to escape" and later he was clearly not happy with Vader's "homing beacon" plan and would rather blow them out of the sky at that point, once the tractor beam failed to engage.

 

[BK613]

I’m thinking a moon like Mimas influenced the design.

We didn't know about the big crater on Mimas until Pioneer 11 got there in 1979. so it really is a coincidence.

 

[Reverend]

Plus the original concept had the dish at the equator; they even got so far as to create the final matte painting for it before it was decided to move it up to the top half to give the thing a (iirc?) clearer sense of orientation and a more interesting look.

Indeed, that's why the computer model of it in the briefing retains that design: redoing it was simply out of the question since it'd require reshoots with the cast and extras.

So yeah, Mimas turning out to look how it did was purely coincidental.

 

[Shawnster]

That just refers to the mere handful of TIEs that went after them.
It's fairly evident that the decision to let them go likely wasn't made until *after* Vader's duel with Kenobi. We saw Tarkin and Vader's initial reaction to the breakout; the former ordered every station on alert and the latter was determined to confront Kenobi. Hell, Tarkin literally says "they must not be allowed to escape" and later he was clearly not happy with Vader's "homing beacon" plan and would rather blow them out of the sky at that point, once the tractor beam failed to engage.

That homing beacon had to be planted BEFORE the duel with Kenobi, though. The decision to let them escape was made before the duel, not after.

 

[fireproof78]

That homing beacon had to be planted BEFORE the duel with Kenobi, though. The decision to let them escape was made before the duel, not after.

Could be two plans in at once. Capture if possible but if they escape they can be tracked.

 

[Reverend]

That homing beacon had to be planted BEFORE the duel with Kenobi, though. The decision to let them escape was made before the duel, not after.

Sure, on Vader's orders when he knew Kenobi was sneaking about. It's a contingency against him getting away since that ship is his most likely means of escape once he does what he came to do. Once he was dead though, it served a different purpose.

 

[Timo]

When the Falcon gets captured by some bored tractor beam operator who has already reeled in fifty-eight survivors or visitors to Alderaan and not even bothered to watch the security teams drag the crews to the execution pits, she's just "the ship that escaped from Mos Eisley". There's no currently known way even Vader could connect that with Obi-Wan or a plan to rescue the Princess.

But the moment there is a hint of a Princess Rescue Plan, Vader should pounce at the opportunity to let it "succeed". He has already been frustrated at every other alternative, perhaps including Force-based interrogation (at which point we just need to ask whether Vader realizes he's getting blocked by a Force wielder, or has a blind spot like Kylo initially against Rey - either way, letting Leia go is a good move if he wants the rebels dead and further Force wielders located). He loves unconventional tricks, and always did, even before getting the mask. And in comparison with the other Jedi or the Clones, he always also loved complicated plans, and technology, despite his lack-of-faith demonstration here.

So the question goes, when exactly does Vader realize there's a Princess Rescue in progress? Probably only moments before he confronts Tarkin with the news about Obi-Wan's presence at most - he would have little reason to wait, or to lie to his formal boss about this. Tarkin is not in on any tracking plans yet, and even Vader may at most have formulated those, not yet executed them. But with something that simple and specific (in comparison with blocking the escape of four people from that city of millions), the actual execution need not take more than a few minutes. Dealing with Obi-Wan could be a separate process altogether.

Basically all the action where Stormtroopers demonstrate a lack of marksmanship comes after this. We may wonder whether the team that pinned the heroes down at the cell block already had instructions to miss and die, or whether only the later troops did. But of course it would be simpler to instruct specific hunter teams than to try and PA the entire station with the orders to commit suicide at the sight of a walking rug and his pets, especially when the heroes were known to be donning Stormtrooper costumes and would learn of any universal announcements...

Timo Saloniemi