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Robert Beltran says the Prime Directive is 'fascist crap'

The more I think about this the more I believe it is difficult to find a real life example of the PD and relate it to Earth. We all live on the same planet and are the same species. In the Star Trek universe they are dealing with different planets and different species. If Earth discovered sentient life on Mars and beings were being enslaved, mistreated does humanity have a moral duty to helped the enslaved Martians if they do not ask for assistance? It is not made clear if Bajor ever requested aid from The Federation during The Occupation or if they decided to get rid of the dictatorship themselves. Did the Federation consider Bajor to be in the Cardessian sphere of influence and so none of its business?
 
The more I think about this the more I believe it is difficult to find a real life example of the PD and relate it to Earth. We all live on the same planet and are the same species. In the Star Trek universe they are dealing with different planets and different species. If Earth discovered sentient life on Mars and beings were being enslaved, mistreated does humanity have a moral duty to helped the enslaved Martians if they do not ask for assistance? It is not made clear if Bajor ever requested aid from The Federation during The Occupation or if they decided to get rid of the dictatorship themselves. Did the Federation consider Bajor to be in the Cardessian sphere of influence and so none of its business?

Pretty sure it was covered during "Ensign Ro".

Ensign Ro said:
PICARD: Then I don't understand why you are unwilling?
KEEVE: Because you are innocent bystanders. You were innocent bystanders for decades as the Cardassians took our homes, as they violated and tortured our people in the most hideous ways imaginable, as we were forced to flee.
PICARD: We were saddened by those events but they occurred within the designated borders of the Cardassian Empire.
KEEVE: And the Federation is pledged not to interfere in the internal affairs of others. How convenient that must be for you, to turn a deaf ear to those who suffer behind a line on a map.
PICARD: Well, I'm not here to debate Federation policy with you, but I can offer you assistance.

http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/203.htm
 
Who assisted The Mujahedeen during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980's? I bet the place was a beacon of liberal democracy with equal rights for all!
 
If The Federation was to 'assist' all the time it would constantly be at war. Its called realpolitiks - we trade with nations that have offensive regimes.
 
Who assisted The Mujahedeen during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 1980's? I bet the place was a beacon of liberal democracy with equal rights for all!

Those Rocket launchers Charlie Wilson snuck in were eventually used against America and her allies.
 
This is a giant load of liberal crap "overlord". For one thing your doesn't your nickname make the point? Second, indifference is a lack of interest, concern, or sympathy. Indifference is an emotional state. Where has anyone argued about anyone's emotional state with regards to upholding the prime directive?

Women in Afghanistan were routinely tortured and/or executed for having the audacity to simply educate themselves. The US stepped in and got rid of that "leadership". Are you a US citizen and a liberal? How did you like the US stepping in and playing God there? I'll bet you didn't.

My screen name is a joke, its based on the old "The Evil Overlord List".

Also debate the arguments, not attack the person making them, I'm pretty sure mutual respect is supposed to be guiding principal for this thread. I'm not attacking you personally, you could show me the same basic respect.

Also, I am Canadian, not American.

Also the US did not go into Afghanistan to liberate the women there and what does this have to do with my arguments. Also Afghanistan is still a mess, so that is not the best example of great outside intervention.

I'm not saying the Federation should change the culture of other planets, I am saying they should try to save planets threatened by natural disasters and in the real world, first world countries help developing countries devastated by natural disasters and most reasonable people have no problem with that.
 
"PICARD: Then I don't understand why you are unwilling?
KEEVE: Because you are innocent bystanders. You were innocent bystanders for decades as the Cardassians took our homes, as they violated and tortured our people in the most hideous ways imaginable, as we were forced to flee.
PICARD: We were saddened by those events but they occurred within the designated borders of the Cardassian Empire.
KEEVE: And the Federation is pledged not to interfere in the internal affairs of others. How convenient that must be for you, to turn a deaf ear to those who suffer behind a line on a map.
PICARD: Well, I'm not here to debate Federation policy with you, but I can offer you assistance""

It is not the Federation's job to play police officer of the galaxy, if that was the case they would be at constant war with the Klingons and other regimes whose politics and practises they abhor.
 
If Star Fleet doesn't trust the Star Fleet captains to use their judgment to do the right thing on their own, without having their hands held all the time, then Star Fleet should abandon exploration, because you can say the very act of exploring can create unintended consequences that could be negative.
This is a rather extreme position.

You're saying, either we should give all human, fallible captains carte blanche to do what they will with weaponized star ships capable of destroying entire planets, or else we should forego exploring altogether?

Any organizational guidelines and directives that limit an individual captain's discretion constitute hand holding?
 
And not just human Captains at that.

Maybe a 150 member worlds, who slow cooked their kids in unexpectedly different methodolgies until it was time to go to school on Earth.
 
This is a rather extreme position.

You're saying, either we should give all human, fallible captains carte blanche to do what they will with weaponized star ships capable of destroying entire planets, or else we should forego exploring altogether?

Any organizational guidelines and directives that limit an individual captain's discretion constitute hand holding?

That is the PD should be a guideline, not some orthodox, religious dogma. Its a good guideline, but different situations require different responses, no one rule or guideline can capture every situation that happens on the ground.

All I have advocated is, if Star Fleet finds a planet that is being threatened by a natural disaster, if they can do things to avert it, maybe they should do things to avert it. I have not seen anyone come with a good argument against that.
 
If 4 million people die in one day from one natural disaster, steps are taken to make sure that next time around, Alien-FEMA isn't run by dipshits, or they stop building tenements on faultlines, or just in general the survivors are a little more weary of dirty telephones.

Stumbling and falling on your face is an important part of learning and growing and maturing.
 
That is the PD should be a guideline, not some orthodox, religious dogma. Its a good guideline, but different situations require different responses, no one rule or guideline can capture every situation that happens on the ground.

All I have advocated is, if Star Fleet finds a planet that is being threatened by a natural disaster, if they can do things to avert it, maybe they should do things to avert it. I have not seen anyone come with a good argument against that.
The question is not just what's to be done but who's to decide. That's what the prime directive is at its heart all about: preventing individuals with great power from deciding what will happen to civilizations with less. The prime directive puts most day-to-day decisions in the hands of alien civilizations, not the powerful humans (and their allies) who study them. It also ensures that the trickiest decisions will be referred to a body more diverse and deliberative than an individual captain. Even in the case of most natural disasters, it should really be the call of higher Starfleet authorities, not an individual captain, if the prime directive should be suspended. Of course, you can pose some hypothetical or write some story where a captain is called upon to make some snap decision when an entire species' extinction hangs in the balance, but the prime directive is meant to govern the more likely and more typical situations. In the extreme ones, a good captain like Kirk can make his best guess (as he did in Into Darkness) and then take responsibility for the consequences (as he tried not to do in Into Darkness).
 
The question is not just what's to be done but who's to decide. That's what the prime directive is at its heart all about: preventing individuals with great power from deciding what will happen to civilizations with less. The prime directive puts most day-to-day decisions in the hands of alien civilizations, not the powerful humans (and their allies) who study them. It also ensures that the trickiest decisions will be referred to a body more diverse and deliberative than an individual captain. Even in the case of most natural disasters, it should really be the call of higher Starfleet authorities, not an individual captain, if the prime directive should be suspended. Of course, you can pose some hypothetical or write some story where a captain is called upon to make some snap decision when an entire species' extinction hangs in the balance, but the prime directive is meant to govern the more likely and more typical situations. In the extreme ones, a good captain like Kirk can make his best guess (as he did in Into Darkness) and then take responsibility for the consequences (as he tried not to do in Into Darkness).

But the problem is, you have episodes where Janeway or Picard argue its the moral thing to do, to let civilizations be destroyed by natural disasters. How is that the moral thing to do?

Why do Janeway and Picard think that is the moral thing to do, why does the PD make exceptions for saving civilizations from natural disasters? I'm not saying they have to stop every natural disaster in the universe, but if they find a situation where they can save civilization from a natural disaster, with just some effort, then what is wrong with doing that?

I don't see how Federation is denying civilization self determination, if they are saving it from a natural disaster, it seems like doing that, would give this civilization its self determination, because they would still be alive. You can't really deny self determination or "ruin" a civilization that will be destroyed anyway, so that is not a logical argument.

I'm not saying the Federation should stop wars or remove dictators by force, those are trickier situations, with a lot of fallout, but stopping natural disasters seems easier and should be uncontroversial.

This is why a lot of people don't like more modern PD stories, it went from something reasonable to somewhat that is dogmatic and inflexable and something that people take to ridclius extremes.

If 4 million people die in one day from one natural disaster, steps are taken to make sure that next time around, Alien-FEMA isn't run by dipshits, or they stop building tenements on faultlines, or just in general the survivors are a little more weary of dirty telephones.

Stumbling and falling on your face is an important part of learning and growing and maturing.

What if everyone dies due to a natural disaster on a planet, what lessons are learned there? The problem is we have had episodes like these, Pen Pals and Homeward, where an entire civilization is going to be destroyed by a natural disaster and Picard says the moral thing to do is to let them die. How is that logical?

That just seems like laziness, callousness and moral cowardice.
 
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You're still focusing on what should be done versus who should decide. Who gets to determine what constitutes a "natural" disaster? Who determines the time frame for responding? the resources to be allocated? All the issues you raise and many others are worthy of discussion in cases where a natural disaster may threaten a civilization, but they should be discussed by Federation or Starfleet councils, where diverse positions can be represented and collective decisions can be made. Individual captains out on their own should in almost all cases follow the prime directive to the letter and refer these difficult matters to the governing bodies that can and should exercise responsibility.

If you don't like a specific call Janeway or Picard made in an extreme situation, the problem is (perhaps) with that individual captain in that individual situation. As a policy, something like the prime directive is wise and just.
 
Nikolai took 20 people from a doomed world to an empty world where in 2 to 3 generations, if they weren't already, as a species be cousin ####ers, or blue balling it.

The civilization was still dead, and his weakness, was really cruelty.
 
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