Robert Beltran says the Prime Directive is 'fascist crap'

[Guy Gardener]

Externally the Federation has money to handle aliens. Aliens have stuff, that they want. Therefore trade occurs on a planetary/imperial scale where credits (money) can be used as a stand in for goods to be redeemed at a later date. Individuals inside the federation are provided for completely, they don't have to buy anything because every thing is given to them free of charge. Not only is there no money but there is nothing to buy, so the only place to redeem Federation Credits in the Federation is from the Government it self.

Internally, with %99 unemployment, Kasiday doesn't get special treatment, just because she is the only human in the universe (other than Ralph) who still believes in money. If she wants to be paid, when there are 10 thousand other human Freighter captains who want to do the same job for free, no one is seeing the benefit of keeping Kasiday on the payroll, when you are giving her money that she can't even spend, unless they pay her in alien currency.

After saying all this, there has to be an illegal black market where humans buy and sell "stuff" with some kind of cryptocurrency or alien currency, because the Federation is a bland unadventurous nanny state who won't even put real sugar in ice cream anymore.

 

[Tenacity]

Externally the Federation has money to handle aliens.

And internally too, there are simply too many incidents of people mentioning money use within the federation to believe otherwise.

Not only is there no money but there is nothing to buy

There's housing, clothing, food, transportation (Sisko mention this happens on Earth), and of course paying for replicaor use.

so the only place to redeem Federation Credits in the Federation is from the Government it self.

And from shopkeepers on Earth (and other federation planets) too.

Internally, with %99 unemployment

It was pretty rare that we saw civilians in the 24th century who were unemployed. Picard's supposed bastard son was one.

 

[Nyotarules]

It seemed the only Paradise planet was Earth, human colonies had to toughen it out, what with pancakes invading their nervous systems... (Deneva)

 

[Tenacity]

I like pancakes.

 

[locutus101]

I like pancakes.

These pancakes didn't agree with Spock.

 

[Cyke101]

Whatever one thinks of Beltran's reasoning, the premise itself is way more provocative and interesting than the vast majority of what we've seen from Chakotay. I appreciate that.

Even disagreeing with Beltran and stating the case shows more engagement between him and the audience than Chakotay could hope for.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Are we using different definitions of fascist?

An insular isolationist policy calls for allowing the rest of the world to Burn, but fascism is about absolute control, so allowing chaotic neighbours to whither or spasm, stewing in their own stupidity sounds more like intellectual elitism, extreme Darwinism or Eugenics.

 

[suarezguy]

It's definitely weird that the Chakotay character was so in to following the Prime Directive even though the Maquis credo seems to be that absolutely you should intervene to protect and help (your own) people, regardless of how bad the consequences may be (think of what's happening right now!!!!1!).

 

[Tenacity]

Whatever one thinks of Beltran's reasoning, the premise itself is way more provocative and interesting than the vast majority of what we've seen from Chakotay. I appreciate that.

Most of what came from Chakotay was the product of the writers, and not the actor. Perhaps if Beltran had more input than he did, the character would have been more interesting?

think of what's happening right now

Curious, what were you referring too?

 

[locutus101]

Are we using different definitions of fascist?

An insular isolationist policy calls for allowing the rest of the world to Burn, but fascism is about absolute control, so allowing chaotic neighbours to whither or spasm, stewing in their own stupidity sounds more like intellectual elitism, extreme Darwinism or Eugenics.

There's no such thing as "extreme Darwinism", Darwinism is not a political choice, it's a scientific theory.It makes no more sense in using Darwinism that way than say "euclidian geometry" or "universal gravitation" or "general relativity".

 

[Cyke101]

Most of what came from Chakotay was the product of the writers, and not the actor. Perhaps if Beltran had more input than he did, the character would have been more interesting?

No doubt about it. That was one of the major things at the center of Beltran's complaints about the writing. I suspect that the rest of the cast sympathized to a certain level, which is one reason why he remains close to them. I'll forever maintain that the Voyager cast could more than hold their own compared to any other 90s TV ensemble, but that the writing couldn't match.

 

[locutus101]

I used to think that Beltram didn't give a crap about his character on the show. It looks like I was wrong.

 

[KelisThePoet]

It's definitely weird that the Chakotay character was so in to following the Prime Directive even though the Maquis credo seems to be that absolutely you should intervene to protect and help (your own) people, regardless of how bad the consequences may be (think of what's happening right now!!!!1!).

In the phrase "intervene to protect and help (your own) people," you put the words "your own" in parentheses, but these words are the crux of the issue. The Prime Directive is at its heart about defining and respecting the difference between your own business and someone else's.

 

[locutus101]

In the phrase "intervene to protect and help (your own) people," you put the words "your own" in parentheses, but these words are the crux of the issue. The Prime Directive is at its heart about defining and respecting the difference between your own business and someone else's.

I think the prime directive is ill-defined and pernicious in its applications, it may have started with good intentions, but good intentions pave the road to hell.

 

[KelisThePoet]

Well, we disagree. I think the prime directive is imperfect in its more condescending aspects but is nevertheless the only thing that stands in the way of bungling, imperialistic humans making a mess of the galaxy.

 

[locutus101]

Well, we disagree. I think the prime directive is imperfect in its more condescending aspects but is nevertheless the only thing that stands in the way of bungling, imperialistic humans making a mess of the galaxy.

When the PD is used as pretext not to intervene when people are dying en masse of something that would be easily preventable, I'll say that the line between "we don't want to risk making things worse" and "We are a a bunch of selfish bastards" has been leaped over.

 

[KelisThePoet]

In practice, there are situations where helping a non-warp species might be preferable to following the Prime Directive--some of the extreme situations involving natural disasters that have been discussed on this thread.

In theory, it's not a great idea for a global or galactic superpower to intervene every time something bad from its point of view is easily preventable. Most imperialism is justified on the grounds of benevolent intervention in a bad situation by a global power with the means to help. Better to make the base policy one of nonintervention and then deliberate over the exceptions than the other way round.

 

[locutus101]

In practice, there are situations where helping a non-warp species might be preferable to following the Prime Directive--some of the extreme situations involving natural disasters that have been discussed on this thread.

In theory, it's not a great idea for a global or galactic superpower to intervene every time something bad from its point of view is easily preventable. Most imperialism is justified on the grounds of benevolent intervention in a bad situation by a global power with the means to help. Better to make the base policy one of nonintervention and then deliberate over the exceptions than the other way round.

I think the spirit of the PD was to prevent the exploitation of the aliens as cheap workforce for example or to get some valuable resource of their planet for a pittance, that sort of thing. It was never intended in its beginning to prevent helping them. As a matter of fact it has never been invoked for this reason by Kirk. Picard is the first one to make that assholish assumption, of course if we refer to in-universe chronology the first one would be Archer before the PD was even invented in Dear Doctor, but Archer is an imbecile.

 

[Guy Gardener]

There's no such thing as "extreme Darwinism", Darwinism is not a political choice, it's a scientific theory.It makes no more sense in using Darwinism that way than say "euclidian geometry" or "universal gravitation" or "general relativity".

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[suarezguy]

Curious, what were you referring too?

The Maquis perspective in its beginning was they wanted the Federation to protect them from Cardassian mistreatment, never mind that doing so could lead to another fullscale war.