Robert Beltran says the Prime Directive is 'fascist crap'

[Tenacity]

Fact well illustrated in the movie Raiders Of The Lost Ark:

Of course in the beginning of that movie Indy (armed with a gun) had to run for his life away from a group of men seemingly arm only with blow guns. And at the end of the movie we saw the folly of bringing multiple guns to a fight with God.

During TOS, thousand of natives with crude weapon overwhelled Captain Tracy and a few loyal native followers armed with phasers. Weight of numbers and the willingness to win at any cost conquered superior weapons.

. Are the Borg fascist?

The majority of the Borg are peons (at best) and more likely slaves.

 

[locutus101]

Of course in the beginning of that movie Indy (armed with a gun) had to run for his life away from a group of men seemingly arm only with blow guns.

The Klingon weren't armed with blowpipes but with swords, clumsy ones at that.

And at the end of the movie we saw the folly of bringing multiple guns to a fight with God.

What's that got to do with anything? Are you saying that the Klingon are gods now?

 

[Phoenix219]

The episode that should have been written would have had Archer agree to help and give them the tech to do so. Then later we find out, (or have a sequel episode) that the world completely mismanaged the tech and things are worse off than they would have been otherwise.

For example, Dear Doctor should have had The crew giving the Valakians genetic engineering info/tech, The Enterprise not having the time to come up with a cure themselves. Starfleet Command could even give permission. Later we find out that the Valakians have screwed it up and both races on the planet are now dead. Being responsible for wiping a whole planet and two races would definitely cause Starfleet to create the Prime Directive.

Definitely.... Enterprise should have been showing us all of the reasons that the PD exists, and all the mismanaged situations of interference from the early days of the Federation.

*edit*

Having Archer already go into it with such 24th century "enlightenment" with no learning curve or leading examples is weak....at betrays the premise of the show.

That is actually the biggest problem with both Voyaqer and Enterprise, IMO - wasted potential, ignoring what should have been the unique aspects of each show, just to give us more by the numbers easy to make Trek.

 

[Phoenix219]

Maybe the question should be: Is Starfleet there to do "the right thing"? Whatever that right thing is. Save civilizations. Emancipate slaves. Kill false gods. Rescue primitives from themselves. Spread peace, love and synth ale. Or is Starfleet really just a bunch of glorified future sociologists. Look, record, and leave.

The first chunk of this post was pure TOS goodness and gave me a huge ass smile....

 

[Phoenix219]

In a manner of speaking. We all share that same "death sentence". The question is: What right do they have to hog not only a planet but its surroundings and thus depriving billions of a cure to their diseases.

What right does anyone else have to come in and tell them how to live their lives, what to do with their planet, or how to utilize the resources at their disposal? The rest of the universe isn't their concern to help. Prime Directive, and all. Plus, they were there first, and it is their planet. The welfare of the rest of the universe is not their concern.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What's that got to do with anything? Are you saying that the Klingon are gods now?

It's called a metaphor.

Guns "should" trump swords or blowdarts.

Angels with lasers "should" trump Nazi's armed with guns made in the 1930s.

Superior technology "should" trump inferior technology.

God is just someone with tech we don't have countermeasures for, other than keeping our eyes shut, in Indiana Jones lore.

 

[locutus101]

What right does anyone else have to come in and tell them how to live their lives, what to do with their planet, or how to utilize the resources at their disposal? The rest of the universe isn't their concern to help. Prime Directive, and all. Plus, they were there first, and it is their planet. The welfare of the rest of the universe is not their concern.

The prime directive doesn't apply.

1) They're not prewarp

2) It's not their homeworld.

3) they occupy only a microscopic fraction of the world.

4) The resource is not even on this world. The resource is no more theirs than the light of the star or anything in their stellar system.

 

[Phoenix219]

First, it's not their homeworld, it's just one they happened to stumble upon. Second, the resource is not on the world in question it's in outer space. Third, they occupy only a minuscule fraction of the world in question.

So what right do they have to monopolize a resource that's not even on the planet they're occupying? Do they own the entire solar system, the constellation, the whole galaxy? Where does it stop?

So why can't anyone else build a station or colonize a crappy moon in the area, and leave them and their planet alone?

And to the comment that it was "within Federation space" - i bet there are dozens of planets and species and societies that are within the "boundary" of "Federation members" but that doesn't mean they are Federation property just because of existing in a particular sector. Space is WAY too huge for the Federation to be able to lie claim to say, "everything within a geometic shape created by drawing lines between Vulcan, Andor, Tellar and Earth" or something like that.

 

[Phoenix219]

The prime directive doesn't apply.

1) They're not prewarp

2) It's not their homeworld.

3) they occupy only a microscopic fraction of the world.

4) The resource is not even on this world. The resource is no more theirs than the light of the star or anything in their stellar system.

1) Irrelevant.

2) Irrelevent

3) So go build on the other side of the planet and leave them alone.

4) So go into space and build something to take advantage of that resource that is available. Do something to recreate the conditions. Start doing, you know, science.

I never said this was a PD issue to me.... but that doesn't make it any less of an issue.

 

[locutus101]

It's called a metaphor.

Guns "should" trump swords or blowdarts.

Angels with lasers "should" trump Nazi's armed with guns made in the 1930s.

Superior technology "should" trump inferior technology.

God is just someone with tech we don't have countermeasures for, other than keeping our eyes shut, in Indiana Jones lore.

God is meaningless. You may as well talk about smurfs or mickey mouse. God doesn't need tech anymore than starships (to paraphrase someone) for those who believe in it. It's supposed to be omnipotent, whatever that means.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Wires get crossed, it's hard to keep track of who says what.

Be chill.

It's not a PD matter.

Even if it was, Starfleet Regulations are not law.

Federation Law, on the other hand probably has a thousand reasons why Star Fleet and the Council should leave the Baku alone.

 

[locutus101]

1) Irrelevant.

2) Irrelevent

3) So go build on the other side of the planet and leave them alone.

4) So go into space and build something to take advantage of that resource that is available. Do something to recreate the conditions. Start doing, you know, science.

I never said this was a PD issue to me.... but that doesn't make it any less of an issue.

It's not an issue at all. They have no right for a resource that's not even on the world they're on. The so called immortality is not something they have created, it's just coincidental. It's like "Hey, I got a tan on this beach and that means I now own the light of the sun!"

It's an absurd claim.

 

[Guy Gardener]

God is meaningless. You may as well talk about smurfs or mickey mouse. God doesn't need tech anymore than starships (to paraphrase someone) for those who believe in it. It's supposed to be omnipotent, whatever that means.

We are talking about a specific fictional story called Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark, where the 10 Commandments carved in stone by Moses, were used to melt Nazis.

You might say that wraiths came out of the stone tablets, but they were probably angels.

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[locutus101]

....
Federation Law, on the other hand probably has a thousand reasons why Star Fleet and the Council should leave the Baku alone.

The Baku are not asked to leave the planet. They can stay on it and die if they want. The issue is the ownership of a resource that's not even on a planet that doesn't even belong to them. As I said they're occupying only a minuscule fraction of said planet. They're allowed to compensation at most. Just because someone is stranded on a desert island doesn't mean that he has a right on everything that's discovered by OTHERS on the island (like a goldmine or something) does,it?

 

[locutus101]

We are talking about a specific fictional story called Indiana Jones and the Raider of the Lost Ark, where the 10 Commandments carved in stone by Moses, were used to melt Nazis.

You might say that wraiths came out of the stone tablets, but they were probably angels.

...

I've seen this movie many times. I like it as a fiction but I would no more use it as a basis for a discussion about anything than I would a Disney cartoon or something about a vampire or whatever half superstitious half made up crap people use to make movies, no matter how entertained I am by said movies.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If God was real you would need more than a few WW2 era machine guns to take her shit.

We are comparing low tech to high tech.

Whatever your problem with religion in the real world, there are several fictional universes where she is real, and her presence must be accounted for as a fact.

The Baku are not asked to leave the planet. They can stay on it and die if they want. The issue is the ownership of a resource that's not even on a planet that doesn't even belong to them. As I said they're occupying only a minuscule fraction of said planet. They're allowed to compensation at most. Just because someone is stranded on a desert island doesn't mean that he has a right on everything that's discovered by OTHERS on the island (like a goldmine or something) does,it?

Why are you arguing with me, when I am saying that you are right?

 

[Phoenix219]

Beltran thinks that Cortes annihilating the Aztecs was cool?

Although, imagine the TOS crew finding the Aztecs and witnessing human sacrifices.....

 

[Guy Gardener]

Butter Fly Effect.

Save the wrong person, history is jiggled and Switzerland wins WW2.

 

[locutus101]

Butter Fly Effect.

Save the wrong person, history is jiggled and Switzerland wins WW2.

The butterfly effect doesn't need you to do anything, just being here is enough, save someone, take a deep breath, save someone and take a deep breath and you have three completely different outcomes. Besides, I doubt the writers of ST have ever read about the butterfly effect and if they had they would likely have gotten it all wrong and think that you need butterflies in order to influence the weather on a planet. That wouldn't be the first time.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Edith Keeler.

This is an awful movie.

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Although I think I'm going to watch this right now...

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SHHH!

(Yes, the phrase predates ray Bradbury by 35 years. )