Robert A. Heinlein

[Sindatur]

Hmmm...I woulda thought Regan defiling the Cross was far more Contraversial and offensive to Conservatives, then the puking or the Violence.

 

[Mistral]

Take The Exorcist, for example. For all the criticism it attracted for its puke and head-spinning, that was a very conservative film, at its heart. And it came out at just the right time to capitalize on fears that the 60s had gone too far, that young people and women were out of control, that society was crumbling, etc.

That's true - notably, these things stand as occasional exceptions. The Exorcist (as a film, anyway, rather than the book) contains little, if any, explicit political ideology and the social themes are submerged and to some degree subverted.

A prime example: the "viewpoint character," Father Karras, is a thoroughly modern priest. He's a psychiatrist; his initial response to someone seeking exorcism is "first you need a time machine back to the thirteenth century."

Though Karras eventually comes to accept the supernatural, his final solution to dealing with the demon throws away the traditional trappings of ecclesiastical authority, dogma and practice in favor of tried-and-true Hollywood emotionalism: Regan isn't rescued by the agency of the Church (Merrin is, in fact, defeated by the demon) but by a moment of personal rage and violence and impulsive sacrifice by Karras.


If anything, the message of the movie version is that while evil is real, religion and tradition are ineffective - only the feeling individual makes a difference. "Librul touchy-feely claptrap," that.

Oh, regarding "spoilers" - the movie is almost forty years old. Rosebud is a sled.

The 1973 horror film a conservative one? I THINK NOT! That movie was not only offensive in A LOT of ways, it should have also been X - rated!

Not only was it offensive, it was downright revolting! What happened to the two priests was definately brutal and violent, and also downright tragic. Granted they saved the life of a young girl who was assaulted and brutalized by that evil force, but it was still at a great cost.

God Love that poor kid. What that young girl had endured, is something horrific beyond comprehension. A violation that is too horrendous, hostile, and unfathomable to describe.

That film, like A Clockwork Orange some two years before, should have been banned!

Banned indefinitely!

I seem to be lost-I came here to discuss Heinlein.

 

[Distorted Humor]

That film, like A Clockwork Orange some two years before, should have been banned!

Banned indefinitely!

But true to the book as much as they could get past the censors. (The 20 chapter version)

 

[Goliath]

I seem to be lost-I came here to discuss Heinlein.

Yes.

Did Heinlein ever write any horror fiction, or SF with horror themes? I can't recall any, off the top of my head.

But then, Golden-Age SF was not big on that sort of thing. Which seems kind of strange, considering that it was John W. Campbell who wrote "Who Goes There?"

ETA: A quick web search suggests that The Puppet Masters, "The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag," and "They" are considered horror-type stories.

I tried to read The Puppet Masters once, but couldn't get into it. Never read either story.

 

[Distorted Humor]

I seem to be lost-I came here to discuss Heinlein.

I was never able to finish "Stranger in a Strange Land" as a teen. Too odd for my tastes at the time.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I seem to be lost-I came here to discuss Heinlein.

Well, RAH had a thing or two to say in his time about the banning - even the burning - of books and ideas. His preferred solution to things he didn't personally enjoy (like television) was not to participate and to leave others to their own tastes.

BTW Heinlein was quite involved, as a young man, in local/state political causes that would be considered naive and socialist now. He didn't really fit the stereotypes of his characters, one reason that Stranger In A Strange Land was so startling in its day.

 

[Goliath]

Wasn't his unpublished first novel intended to promote Social Credit?

 

[beamMe]

The 1973 horror film a conservative one? I THINK NOT! That movie was not only offensive in A LOT of ways, it should have also been X - rated!

Not only was it offensive, it was downright revolting! What happened to the two priests was definately brutal and violent, and also downright tragic. Granted they saved the life of a young girl who was assaulted and brutalized by that evil force, but it was still at a great cost.

God Love that poor kid. What that young girl had endured, is something horrific beyond comprehension. A violation that is too horrendous, hostile, and unfathomable to describe.

That film, like A Clockwork Orange some two years before, should have been banned!

Banned indefinitely!

If you are trying to act like a parody of some old fart - well done

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Wasn't his unpublished first novel intended to promote Social Credit?

Yep. Here's a brief review and article - I think there are more extensive pieces elsewhere on the web:

http://www.cbc.ca/arts/features/heinlein/

This also reminded me how little use he had for so-called "social conservatives" and for religiously narrow-minded "Christians" as he saw them - the villains of several of his stories were American theocrats. In this he'd fit comfortably in with a lot of libertarians, I think.

 

[Expo67]

The 1973 horror film a conservative one? I THINK NOT! That movie was not only offensive in A LOT of ways, it should have also been X - rated!

Not only was it offensive, it was downright revolting! What happened to the two priests was definately brutal and violent, and also downright tragic. Granted they saved the life of a young girl who was assaulted and brutalized by that evil force, but it was still at a great cost.

God Love that poor kid. What that young girl had endured, is something horrific beyond comprehension. A violation that is too horrendous, hostile, and unfathomable to describe.

That film, like A Clockwork Orange some two years before, should have been banned!

Banned indefinitely!

If you are trying to act like a parody of some old fart - well done

For your information, I am old. Nevertheless, I'll consider what you just said as a compliment and leave it at that.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Directors are always looking to insert their own vision or message, and sometimes you gotta tell em "Look, doofus, the message is already there! Just do the movie like the friggin' book, okay?!"

That's called a "fan film;" we have a whole forum devoted to them.

The terms "faithful," "respect for source material" and "artistic integrity" also spring to mind.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

In defending one's biases, they so often do.

 

[Expo67]

Hmmm...I woulda thought Regan defiling the Cross was far more Contraversial and offensive to Conservatives, then the puking or the Violence.

It still is.

Another reason why the film should have been banned, indefinitely.

 

[Australis]

You're really Red Foreman, right? You are? Yeah, you're Red. Are you sure you're not Red? I think you're Red. Sure, you're Red.

Just say "Dumbass" like we all know you want to, and let's move on.

 

[Gepard]

I THINK NOT!

True.

Oh, burn.

 

[Expo67]

I THINK NOT!

True.

Oh, burn.

Obviously, you are the Michael Kelso-type. How many special brownies have you consumed lately?

 

[Expo67]

You're really Red Foreman, right? You are? Yeah, you're Red. Are you sure you're not Red? I think you're Red. Sure, you're Red.

Just say "Dumbass" like we all know you want to, and let's move on.

1. I'll consider that a compliment and leave it at that.

2. Don't tempt me.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

I love Heinlein, although there's still a lot of his stuff I haven't read. My favorite is probably Friday.

Notice how the movie version of that one isn't faithful at all! Ice Cube indeed!

The Borgified Corpse wrote:
I don't think it was a matter of trying to impose his own vision on the book. I think it was a matter of him already making the movie before he learned of the book, then the studio buying the rights to the book and using the title because it's just similar enough to the movie that they were already making that they might get sued otherwise.

So he made a movie out of whole cloth that just happened to use the same names from the book, but he never read the book? How does that work again?

As I understand it--and I don't claim to be an expert--Verhoven was devloping his own alien invasion movie called Bug Hunt at the time that someone informed him of the Heinlein novel. Once that happened, they acquired the rights to Starship Troopers and started integrating elements of the book into the movie. But the deviations are typically blamed on elements of Bug Hunt that were established before they turned it into Starship Troopers.

If you're waiting for Hollywood to decide that producing expensive films that bomb, in order to push the ideologies of writers like Rand and Heinlein, is a worthwhile business model...don't.

Well to Atlas Shrugged Credit, by all accounts it was a inexpensive production.

Yeah. It's amazing how much money you can save when you're not spending it on script doctors and actors who can actually carry a movie.

That film, like A Clockwork Orange some two years before, should have been banned!

Banned indefinitely!

But true to the book as much as they could get past the censors. (The 20 chapter version)

That's one of those movies like Downfall which seems to disturb most other people more than it disturbs me. Maybe I'm just desensitized from watching too much Law & Order: Special Victims Unit.

I seem to be lost-I came here to discuss Heinlein.

Yes.

Did Heinlein ever write any horror fiction, or SF with horror themes? I can't recall any, off the top of my head.

But then, Golden-Age SF was not big on that sort of thing. Which seems kind of strange, considering that it was John W. Campbell who wrote "Who Goes There?"

ETA: A quick web search suggests that The Puppet Masters, "The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag," and "They" are considered horror-type stories.

I tried to read The Puppet Masters once, but couldn't get into it. Never read either story.

I never read The Puppet Masters but I saw the movie version with Donald Sutherland when it first came out. I need to rewatch it. All I really remember was that the aliens were pretty creepy. (Reminds me of some of those other little remembered 1990s sci-fi films like The Arrival & Screamers.)

This also reminded me how little use he had for so-called "social conservatives" and for religiously narrow-minded "Christians" as he saw them - the villains of several of his stories were American theocrats. In this he'd fit comfortably in with a lot of libertarians, I think.

In fact, God himself turns out to be the main bad guy in Job: A Comedy of Justice. He's fucking with humanity for his own amusement and the other gods call him on it. And Heaven turns out to be the most obnoxious bureaucracy you can imagine.

 

[Expo67]

That's one of those movies like Downfall which seems to disturb most other people more than it disturbs me. Maybe I'm just desensitized from watching too much Law & Order: Special Victims Unit.

That's pretty much a sad state that humanity is in. Back in 1971, Stanley Kubrick's controversial science fiction/black comedy stirred up so much debate that it caused a multitude of social problems among the youth.

Now, it is something to sit back and laugh at. Personally, that says how little humanity has come as a species in terms of maturity and progression.

This also reminded me how little use he had for so-called "social conservatives" and for religiously narrow-minded "Christians" as he saw them - the villains of several of his stories were American theocrats. In this he'd fit comfortably in with a lot of libertarians, I think.

Judging by that description, you and Heinlein would have gotten along just fine. Which makes me wonder what you have got against Christians and conservatives.

 

[RJDiogenes]

In defending one's biases, they so often do.

Defending their biases in favor of the material they're adapting. Got it. Keep talking.

I love Heinlein, although there's still a lot of his stuff I haven't read. My favorite is probably Friday.

Notice how the movie version of that one isn't faithful at all! Ice Cube indeed!

Exactly. One can barely recognize it. They should have called it "nuFriday."