Riker's rank change in Best of Both Worlds Question

[at Quark's]

Sisko (Deep Space Nine) is a Commodore and later Admiral.

I've wondered about this. DS9 is supposedly a fairly large space station with a small Starfleet complement (and many civilians and local Bajoran personnel). So, would Sisko's rank be based (at first) on the size of the total station (and population), or just the Starfleet complement there?

Of course, during later DS9, it's the importance of the station that counts (as a gateway to the wormhole).

 

[Nerys Myk]

I've wondered about this. DS9 is supposedly a fairly large space station with a small Starfleet complement (and many civilians and local Bajoran personnel). So, would Sisko's rank be based (at first) on the size of the total station (and population), or just the Starfleet complement there?

Of course, during later DS9, it's the importance of the station that counts (as a gateway to the wormhole).

DS9 was more or less at Cardassia's doorstep and later literally at the Dominion's doorstep. I'd think a strong presence and a flag officer would be required.

 

[at Quark's]

^Even so, the station feels like a bit of a backwater at first (at the very least, till the wormhole is discovered). Sisko wasn't sent there with a strong presence and for defense of Bajor, his main assignment (given by Picard) was to gradually woo the Bajorans into Federation membership (probably also by coordinating Federation help and relief efforts and such).

 

[C.E. Evans]

in the beginning, DS9 was not a plum assignment--it was a partially vandalized, second-hand abandoned space station in a not exactly nice sector of space. It's importance grew afterward.

Starfleet likely kept Sisko as the station's CO due to his status among the Bajorans. Without that, it's possible that he might have been replaced by a more senior officer after the discovery of the wormhole and definitely after first contact with the Dominion went south, IMO.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Seems to me Starfleet and the Federation dropped the ball. Potential new member. Former enemy at the border. Bu they treat it as a backwater and give the Bajoran homeworld a second hand space station commanded by a broken man who's halfway out the door.

 

[at Quark's]

^IIRC, they don't give the Bajoran homeworld a 2nd hand spacestation - it was Bajoran property the second the Cardassians left.

What should Starfleet have done? Replace that station with a shiny new space station of Starfleet design?

And as for Sisko, Starfleet may not have known he was 'halfway out the door' till Sisko told Picard so.

 

[fireproof78]

Wasn't Starfleet also playing very gently at first, not wanting to appear like another invasive power after the Cardassians withdrew from Bajor? The station was Bajoran property, with Starfleet administering it, and them providing a liaison officer from the Bajoran military per the provincial government.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I've wondered about this. DS9 is supposedly a fairly large space station with a small Starfleet complement (and many civilians and local Bajoran personnel). So, would Sisko's rank be based (at first) on the size of the total station (and population), or just the Starfleet complement there?

Most likely the latter. Certainly the civilians are unlikely to be relevant (and there wasn't actually all that many of those in the first season or two either.

DS9 was more or less at Cardassia's doorstep and later literally at the Dominion's doorstep. I'd think a strong presence and a flag officer would be required.

Starfleet might even have wanted that, particularly after the discovery of the wormhole, but it seems likely to me that Bajor likely vetoed more than a token Starfleet detachment until things started heating up in S4.

 

[at Quark's]

Most likely the latter. Certainly the civilians are unlikely to be relevant (and there wasn't actually all that many of those in the first season or two either.

But what about the non-starfleet local Bajoran personnel? (For example those Bajorans that worked for O'Brien in Engineering.) That might actually be the majority of station personnel. Who do they ultimately answer to? Still to Starfleet by some form of (temporary) contract? Kira? The Bajoran government by the form of some other representative?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Kira, presumably.

Though with delegated authority to various others, particularly Bashir, O'Brien and of course Odo.

 

[Frontis]

in the beginning, DS9 was not a plum assignment--it was a partially vandalized, second-hand abandoned space station in a not exactly nice sector of space. It's importance grew afterward.

Starfleet likely kept Sisko as the station's CO due to his status among the Bajorans. Without that, it's possible that he might have been replaced by a more senior officer after the discovery of the wormhole and definitely after first contact with the Dominion went south, IMO.

The beginning of DS9 was a good basis for development and story telling.

 

[Tomalak]

Wasn't Starfleet also playing very gently at first, not wanting to appear like another invasive power after the Cardassians withdrew from Bajor? The station was Bajoran property, with Starfleet administering it, and them providing a liaison officer from the Bajoran military per the provincial government.

Yes exactly. It wouldn't have made sense to assign an Admiral or other senior officier - that would have been inflammatory in a delicate situation and increased the perception that Starfleet was simply replacing the Cardassians as the overlords of Bajor.

The initial assignment is pretty modest - he's there to coordinate relief efforts to help get the planet back on its feet, at the same time showing the flag and influencing the Provisional Government towards Federation membership.

The Starfleet higher ups may have assumed the same as Kira and Quark - the government would soon fall and lead to civil war. Sisko had apparently just rolled off the shuttered Defiant project so was available and had the right skills. He had the right character too, he was a builder by nature and not one to throw his weight around and let his ego take over.

Once he's there, he's unassailable because of his unique status as Emissary, but Starfleet keep him on a pretty tight leash. We see various Admirals over him, particularly regarding the Maquis and the Cardassians.

It's interesting that he isn't replaced during his leave of absence, or at the end of the series. Kira takes over and is trusted to do so by Starfleet, and Bajor by now has a stable government and a mature relationship with the Federation. Shadows and Symbols shows that Admiral Ross is still looking out for Starfleet's interests, but he can't directly order Kira to do something as long as she retains the support of her government.

 

[Oddish]

Ye, Riker never wanted to be captain.

Yes, he did. He just took the Enterprise because a tour on the flagship would benefit his career ("The Arsenal of Freedom"). Little did he know that said tour would effectively derail it.

was just complaining about this a few days ago in another thread. Upon rewatch, the entire 2 part episode/movie is narratively centered around changing the status quo and putting the pieces in their new positions - and then immediately undoes itself. It undercuts its own premise and Riker is never the same.

I think it mostly works. He shows to himself that he can be the captain and make the big decisions. But he also decides that it's not what he wants right now.

For me, it doesn't. We see Riker learn lessons, make big decisions, get necessary advice from Troi (inappropriately delivered in public) and Guinan (appropriately delivered in private) and emerge as a great captain. And then... we're denied the natural conclusion to that arc. TNG wasn't as bad with the Big Red Reset Button as VOY, but this was one of its worst examples.

I like to think that in VOY, Harry Kim stayed an ensign for so long because the billet for operations officer of an Intrepid-class ship only required an ensign and because everyone else in his department was an enlisted. He was already the top dog in operations.

Tuvok was already the security chief and Tom was already the main helmsman. That didn't stop them from getting promoted. The writers' decision to keep him at that rank is indefensible.

IIRC, Tuvok was referred to from the beginning as a lieutenant, despite sporting lieutenant commander pips. it took VOY's costuming department about a dozen episodes to correct the mistake.

Par for the course, unfortunately. I really need to update my "Voyager writer" quiz to mention that...

Garett Wang was not happy about it that his character did not develop.

Nor should he have been. He and Robert Beltran both had legitimate complaints about their characters being under-used. And the fact that Garrett's been stuck as the "Forever Ensign" probably doesn't help.

seem to recall the DS9 writers did consider making Sisko an Admiral, since he was basically running the war, but decided that Star Trek is about captains, and Sisko should be more of a practical man of action than a sat behind a desk.

If he wasn't an Admiral (or a commodore, anyway), he shouldn't have been ordering a fleet of hundreds of starship around.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Tuvok was already the security chief and Tom was already the main helmsman. That didn't stop them from getting promoted. The writers' decision to keep him at that rank is indefensible.

While the real world reason for Kim staying an ensign for seven years was simply writers' preference, an in-universe argument can be made that either Intrepid-class ships only required an ensign for operations officer or that the Voyager was Janeway's ship and she determined her chain of command. If Kim wanted advancement, then he came to the wrong ship.

 

[Yuri Nikolayev]

This simply never made sense. An Admiral gave him the promotion. He wore the rank pips. There’s no reason for Picard to demote him, because Riker hasn’t done anything wrong. Plus, he’s a hero now… he’s literally saved Earth. No way any other Admiral would demote him. Realistically, he’d remain a Captain, but it’s a TV show, so we can’t have two Captains on the same ship.

 

[Mojochi]

This simply never made sense. An Admiral gave him the promotion. He wore the rank pips. There’s no reason for Picard to demote him, because Riker hasn’t done anything wrong. Plus, he’s a hero now… he’s literally saved Earth. No way any other Admiral would demote him. Realistically, he’d remain a Captain, but it’s a TV show, so we can’t have two Captains on the same ship.

No one said Picard demoted him. My money's on Hanson doing it for whatever reason. He's the one who promoted him. He's the one who was pushing for him to take his own command, & when Riker didn't do that, he probably said "screw him. Go back to being Picard's stooge if you want, but you're forking over that 4th pip if you do"

 

[The Wormhole]

No one said Picard demoted him. My money's on Hanson doing it for whatever reason. He's the one who promoted him. He's the one who was pushing for him to take his own command, & when Riker didn't do that, he probably said "screw him. Go back to being Picard's stooge if you want, but you're forking over that 4th pip if you do"

Accept Hanson died, so he couldn't do that. Unless you're suggesting he left posthumous instructions along the lines of "if Picard is rescued and retains command of the Enterprise, and if Riker chooses to stay behind as his XO, rescind Riker's promotion."

 

[Mojochi]

Lol I forgot. Still, it's seems like an upper command directive, if it isn't just a standard at the time

 

[Oddish]

In general, a field promotion must be confirmed by the Admiralty. Riker was probably told that his promotion would be confirmed if he took one of the available commands. But because of his man-crush on Picard, he didn't. Promotion not confirmed, and Riker resumes his old rank.

While the real world reason for Kim staying an ensign for seven years was simply writers' preference, an in-universe argument can be made that either Intrepid-class ships only required an ensign for operations officer or that the Voyager was Janeway's ship and she determined her chain of command. If Kim wanted advancement, then he came to the wrong ship.

It wasn't preference, it was ineptitude. The way the VOY writers abandoned their premise, changed rules, flipflopped or assassinated characters, advanced some characters, let others stagnate, pummeled the reset button, and had intriguing plots go nowhere... it was like watching a game of Calvinball.

 

[fireproof78]

This simply never made sense. An Admiral gave him the promotion. He wore the rank pips. There’s no reason for Picard to demote him, because Riker hasn’t done anything wrong. Plus, he’s a hero now… he’s literally saved Earth. No way any other Admiral would demote him. Realistically, he’d remain a Captain, but it’s a TV show, so we can’t have two Captains on the same ship.

Only possible in universe reason is billeting and that the Enterprise doesn't have two captain billets for their table of organization.

But, yes, that decision should have come from higher up in the chain of command. That would exceed Picard's authority.