Riker's rank change in Best of Both Worlds Question

[Tomalak]

I was just complaining about this a few days ago in another thread. Upon rewatch, the entire 2 part episode/movie is narratively centered around changing the status quo and putting the pieces in their new positions - and then immediately undoes itself. It undercuts its own premise and Riker is never the same.

They had Frakes under contract, so he wasn't going anywhere. If Stewart had decided to leave it would have been a different ending, but ultimately it had to reset to status quo ante. So is it satisfying under those constraints?

I think it mostly works. He shows to himself that he can be the captain and make the big decisions. But he also decides that it's not what he wants right now.

The underlying theme of the episode is self-determination. Picard is denied his by the Borg, and Riker is also being pressured by groupthink to do something he doesn't want. Picard orders him to reconsider his position.

In the end, he decides his reward is to go back to that job he loves, and he doesn't feel the need to prove himself to anyone else.

The main weakness with the second part and Riker is that Shelby kind of disappears, at least as an antagonist for Riker, so there isn't really a pay-off there.

 

[Mojochi]

I just assume that his choice to remain as Enterprise XO meant forfeiting that field promotion for the post. Had he transferred to his own command on a different ship, he'd have certainly retained the new rank.

Make no bones about it. The show presents the end scenario as if Riker just stays put as status quo, but he's really doing something rather unprecedented. He's outright turning his back on promotion & command, in a sense stepping down & backing away.

Now, the logistics of why that meant specifically returning him to the commander rank is unknown. Maybe Starfleet did away with the "Scotty, Spock, Kirk" dynamic after that. I mean what next, Capt. Sulu at the ENT-A's helm, & Capt. Uhura at coms? It's silly, captains all over the bridge. It even may have only ever existed just for them, because of how hallowed they were, that they could do whatever they wanted.

So that may be an antiquated thing by the D's time, OR... maybe it was personal against Will, for his shunning of the offer of command. Starfleet after Wolf 359 wants & NEEDS him as a ship captain. Him turning his back on them at that time of crisis is kind of a big deal IMHO. Maybe they said f**k him. Go back to hiding in Picard's shadow if you want, & stay an underling forever. The least we can do to thank you for saving us is let you be the waste of space you clearly want to be lol

Otherwise, there'd be no reason for Kirk to be demoted to captain, just because he wanted to command the ship personally. Or for Riker to renounce his captain rank simply because he stepped out of the captain role.

Kirk wasn't demoted expressly for the purpose of being returned to the command of a starship. He was demoted because well... He was pretty darn guilty of some crimes lol, and this was a rather inventive way to both adhere to law but also not too heftily penalize the guy who just saved Earth.

 

[Tomalak]

^I think @at Quark's is referring to Admiral Kirk's temporary reduction to Captain during the V'GER incident, not the aftermath of the Whale Probe.

 

[at Quark's]

^I think @at Quark's is referring to Admiral Kirk's temporary reduction to Captain during the V'GER incident, not the aftermath of the Whale Probe.

yes, that. And to the temporary reduction in rank from Captain Decker to Commander Decker for the duration of that mission in turn.

 

[Mojochi]

^Oh, sorry. I forgot about that TMP stuff lol

 

[C.E. Evans]

^I'm no military expert, but isn't this because Star Trek doesn't differentiate between the rank of captain and the position of captain, the way these are different things in real world navies?

Otherwise, there'd be no reason for Kirk to be demoted to captain, just because he wanted to command the ship personally.

In Trek, there's been this long-held idea that admirals can't command starships, that they are desk jockeys. There are a few instances when this isn't true, but they may be more rare than common. In TMP, Kirk went back to captain likely because the billet for CO of the Enterprise required a captain, not an admiral. It also may have been a symbolic gesture on Kirk's part to be a line officer again with the rest of his crew.

Or for Riker to renounce his captain rank simply because he stepped out of the captain role.

It's probably once again an issue of billets. The billet for XO of the Enterprise-D is a commander, not a captain.

I think this is an area where Starfleet deviates from real navies in which there are specific chains of command for certain assignments, where certain posts require someone of a specific rank and no higher. Naturally there are exceptions like the Enterprise-A having three captains, but I believe that's generally how it goes.

I like to think that in VOY, Harry Kim stayed an ensign for so long because the billet for operations officer of an Intrepid-class ship only required an ensign and because everyone else in his department was an enlisted. He was already the top dog in operations.

 

[JesterFace]

When we compare Starfleet ranks with naval ranks it might be a good idea to remember that command structures might not be exactly identical in 24th century as they are today. Maybe?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I think this is an area where Starfleet deviates from real navies in which there are specific chains of command for certain assignments, where certain posts require someone of a specific rank and no higher.

No, that's pretty much how it works IRL.

Though ironically something similar to the Kirk situation has actually happened several times recently in the Royal Navy, where a substantive Commodore has taken a "demotion" (as least in title) to Captain to command a RN carrier because of a lack of qualified and promotable Senior Line Officers due to the several year gap in carrier availability.

Naturally there are exceptions like the Enterprise-A having three captains, but I believe that's generally how it goes.

Not on a ship with a crew as small as E-A, that's pretty much exclusive to supercarriers with a crew in the thousands.

I like to think that in VOY, Harry Kim stayed an ensign for so long because the billet for operations officer of an Intrepid-class ship only required an ensign and because everyone else in his department was an enlisted. He was already the top dog in operations.

Actually, if the writers had been consistent and co-ordinated properly with wardrobe he wouldn't even have been that, as Ayala appears as a LT-JG standing next to Kim at Ops in the final scene of Caretaker.

When we compare Starfleet ranks with naval ranks it might be a good idea to remember that command structures might not be exactly identical in 24th century as they are today. Maybe?

No, but IMO a CO like Picard who has decades of experience over Janeway as a CO and commands nearly an order of magnitude more personnel should logically be senior to her.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Actually, if the writers had been consistent and co-ordinated properly with wardrobe he wouldn't even have been that, as Ayala appears as a LT-JG standing next to Kim at Ops in the final scene of Caretaker.

Ayala is a security officer. Not operations.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Ayala is a security officer. Not operations.

He had various different roles in different episodes.

Harry and Ayala

 

[C.E. Evans]

Not on a ship with a crew as small as E-A, that's pretty much exclusive to supercarriers with a crew in the thousands.

I was talking about Federation starships. You generally don't see more than one captain aboard a starship, regardless of its size. The Enterprise-A was a rare case, IMO, and I like to think it was really only because it was Kirk's command crew.

Actually, if the writers had been consistent and co-ordinated properly with wardrobe he wouldn't even have been that, as Ayala appears as a LT-JG standing next to Kim at Ops in the final scene of Caretaker.

Ayala was whatever the particular story required him to be and frequently served as a fill-in for an absent regular cast member. As with the case of Tuvok's original rank insignia, I think it's best to kind of handwave away the costuming discrepancy.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Tuvok's original rank insignia, I think it's best to kind of handwave away the costuming discrepancy.

I always assumed Tuvok was demoted because of the events of "Prime Factors".

 

[C.E. Evans]

I always assumed Tuvok was demoted because of the events of "Prime Factors".

IIRC, Tuvok was referred to from the beginning as a lieutenant, despite sporting lieutenant commander pips. it took VOY's costuming department about a dozen episodes to correct the mistake.

 

[Tomalak]

Yeah it was just a costuming mistake. He still has the third pip for a few episodes after Prime Factors.

Tom Paris was also adjusted down from Lt to Lt jg to make it clear Tuvok was still his superior.

 

[Frontis]

Garett Wang was not happy about it that his character did not develop.

 

[Nerys Myk]

In my 24t h Century reboot/fanfic Picard is the only CO who holds the rank "Captain. Riker (Defiant) and Janeway (Voyager) are both Commanders. Sisko (Deep Space Nine) is a Commodore and later Admiral.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Sisko being a Commodore (or potentially a Fleet Captain) would make sense after Season 5 or so, but seems like a bit of a jump in on go from the LCDR rank that he was in his previous assignment.

OTOH, Picard actually being one or other other of the above in rank, but taking the title of Captain because he doesn't normally act as a task force commander or second-in-command makes a lot of sense.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Sisko being a Commodore (or potentially a Fleet Captain) would make sense after Season 5 or so, but seems like a bit of a jump in on go from the LCDR rank that he was in his previous assignment.

My fanfic makes him and Ds9 much more important that he was at the start of Deep Space Nine. He is already a Commodore when he arrives at DS9.

 

[Tomalak]

I seem to recall the DS9 writers did consider making Sisko an Admiral, since he was basically running the war, but decided that Star Trek is about captains, and Sisko should be more of a practical man of action than a sat behind a desk.

 

[The Wormhole]

I always assumed Tuvok was demoted because of the events of "Prime Factors".

Thing is, when Tuvok's rank insignia was adjusted to Lieutenant's, Tom and B'Elanna's were also adjusted to Lieutenant JG. Now while you could claim B'Elanna also faced repercussions because of Prime Factors, Tom wouldn't have as he had no involvement with the climax of that episode.