Exactly.
Riker, a murderer?
- Thread starter Kobayshi Maru
- Start date
- Status
An adult would be of more use to a society, than a infant would.
Basically a young adult, yes.
The reward would be individuals who were "ready to go." Who would not have to wait years just to be able to start being educated.
Sure it was.
And the other two pictures clearly show fully formed adult faces.
But also dressed to look not fully completed. So in both cases it's clear they meant it to look incomplete, especially the body which barely even looks like skin. They didn't even use an actual person for the shot. They used a prop or effect. The only reason they used what looked like a face in the face shot is so you could make out the similarity to Riker & Pulaski, because given the production limitations at that time, a prop wouldn't look as close to their real face & the viewer might not recognize them. It's still in development though
It is a less than fully complete human adult formation that they've been creating & that Riker stopped them from completing. All 3 pictures show some degree of that & it means they aren't fully formed & thereby not a functioning organism yet
Riker phasering these two, is particularly shocking when you know as Picard has said numerous times that their prime mission is to study and preserve life and not destroy it. He was particularly emphatic in the episode about the crystalline entity, a being that had killed countless people and was likely to kill again, and yet, Picard wanted to communicate with it, without harming it. How do you reconcile that with Riker, murdering two innocent clones? How sick, not to see the absurdity! Plus if you think that the fact that he was the origin of the genetic material gives him "property rights" or "dibbs" on massacring these people then let's examine what the law has to say in general about a father murdering his children. Do you think we're more lenient when someone kills his progeny than when that someone kills strangers? If you think that then you are sadly deluded.
These clones may not have been complete adult human beings but there is no doubt that they were both alive. Remember that Data is alive, the exocomps are alive, holodeck Moriarty is alive, countess Bartolomew (sp?) is alive and yet somehow you'd like us to believe that these almost human beings are not alive? How inconsistent!
Looks like you jumped the gun on the "case resting" here....
There's every doubt. Every example you cited is artificial intelligence. They're creating a real human being... or were until Riker stopped them from completing it. If it's body is incomplete, then a living human it is not... yet, which is the aim of the episode to suggest. Suggesting otherwise is to write your own narrative for the sole purpose of condemning Riker. You will write your narrative to support whatever fiction you can twist that paints him as immoral, but it'll fly against the presentation at hand
There's no such thing as an almost human being that is alive
You've just restated what you said before without adding anything of substance to it. The truth of the matter is that the writer(s) fouled it up, they (obviously) wanted to make it look like there was nothing morally or ethically wrong with what Riker did but they screwed up, miserably. You shouldn't let your conscience become a slave to a TV script, no matter how badly written, you should recognize this act for what it is, a vile act, a disgrace to both humanity and the stated purpose of the mission of the ship and its crew. They are supposed to sick out, study, and protect life. They are only justified to kill life when it is the only way to keep it from harming people. Even then they do that as the last resort. Picard didn't want to kill the crystalline entity in spite of its multiple massacres of sentient beings, he wanted it alive. How could he at the same time justify the killing of innocent beings that in all likelihood weren't about to be anything but peaceful and contributive members of society. Don't tell me that the Mariposans would have liked them to be twisted and sick and murdering people!
There is no justification for these killings. No matter how much effort you put into denying the evidence that tells you that. These clones were about to become fully developed contributive members of society and Riker's sick act is unconscionable. Riker only escaped punishment because of the shortsightedness and lack of common sense of the people who wrote this story.
I don't need to add more substance to what I'm saying. I've fully illustrated the logic & evidence of my statements, & you've ignored them & continued to post the same thing.
I know what they meant when they made the episode. It's not all that great of an episode, but they were clear in what they meant by Riker's act. If you don't want to appreciate that because you have an irrational grudge, then I guess I'm done now
I know what they meant when they made the episode. It's not all that great of an episode, but they were clear in what they meant by Riker's act. If you don't want to appreciate that because you have an irrational grudge, then I guess I'm done now
Justification?
Riker said no to having clones of himself made. Yet the locals assaulted him and started to make a clone anyway. This becomes an illegal act from the start.
Phasering the clones while still forming ends the crime committed. Had they not figured out they had had cells stolen when they did, those clones would eventually fully form into a functional human that looked like Riker and Palaski. However, prior to being fully formed, these clones appear to be constructs. The cells replicated into the shape of the individual and then the machines generate the organs and vital systems over time. The setup seems to be able to hold the pattern's shape even without the bones having grown in yet (as the arms clearly do not have a full skeleton yet) The stole cells provide the template for the cloning machines. Why the locals actually need new cell stock should be complete crap unless this process does something stupid to the cells while making a new clone.
A cell is a cell and one from the orignal host should be just the same DNA as the clone even generations down the road. Why would there be any "fading"? Unless the process itself causes the issue. At which point it is definately not like modern 21st century cloning. More like Eugenics Wars era cloning, just without the subject scaled up to a giant.
If the locals are making something like flash clones, than it wouldn't take all that long before the clone was a viable lifeform. But it would not be one until fully formed. Before that it would be a collection of replicated stolen cells being used without permission. Had the clone been fully formed with all its organs in place, than the question of what to do with them would have been brought up, as well as their rights under law. But prior to fully forming, they are not yet a lifeform. We aren't even talking fetus development here, this is a bio-mass in a chamber being crafted into a human by machines. Until it is done, it is not a human. I would highly doubt an unfinished clone of this type would be considered a lifeform in Federation science.
Now if you want to get into the cells being lifeforms, that is a different thing. At that point you have to ask how far down do you go? At what point do they stop being Riker's cells (stolen) to being a seperate lifeform? The answer is on completion of the cloning process. Before that, they are still Riker's stolen cells. He has the right to do with them what he wants under law, as far as we can tell.
Riker said no to having clones of himself made. Yet the locals assaulted him and started to make a clone anyway. This becomes an illegal act from the start.
Phasering the clones while still forming ends the crime committed. Had they not figured out they had had cells stolen when they did, those clones would eventually fully form into a functional human that looked like Riker and Palaski. However, prior to being fully formed, these clones appear to be constructs. The cells replicated into the shape of the individual and then the machines generate the organs and vital systems over time. The setup seems to be able to hold the pattern's shape even without the bones having grown in yet (as the arms clearly do not have a full skeleton yet) The stole cells provide the template for the cloning machines. Why the locals actually need new cell stock should be complete crap unless this process does something stupid to the cells while making a new clone.
A cell is a cell and one from the orignal host should be just the same DNA as the clone even generations down the road. Why would there be any "fading"? Unless the process itself causes the issue. At which point it is definately not like modern 21st century cloning. More like Eugenics Wars era cloning, just without the subject scaled up to a giant.
If the locals are making something like flash clones, than it wouldn't take all that long before the clone was a viable lifeform. But it would not be one until fully formed. Before that it would be a collection of replicated stolen cells being used without permission. Had the clone been fully formed with all its organs in place, than the question of what to do with them would have been brought up, as well as their rights under law. But prior to fully forming, they are not yet a lifeform. We aren't even talking fetus development here, this is a bio-mass in a chamber being crafted into a human by machines. Until it is done, it is not a human. I would highly doubt an unfinished clone of this type would be considered a lifeform in Federation science.
Now if you want to get into the cells being lifeforms, that is a different thing. At that point you have to ask how far down do you go? At what point do they stop being Riker's cells (stolen) to being a seperate lifeform? The answer is on completion of the cloning process. Before that, they are still Riker's stolen cells. He has the right to do with them what he wants under law, as far as we can tell.
The Crystalline Entity was feeding. It did not realise its food was sentient. Totally different situation.
Progeny are made up of the DNA of two individuals. The clones depicted here are from the DNA of one. I'll answer your question anyway - what does the law say about terminating a pregnancy before it is viable? I suppose that depends upon which territory you are from, but in most Western societies it is allowed. But again, your argument is null because future law may be different from current law.
And adding "If you think that then you are sadly deluded" to the end of your post doesn't make your opinion any more valid. It just makes you rude.
Closing this thread before it drifts off into warnings territory.
- Status
