Rick Berman's an ***hole

[RobertScorpio]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

Uh... Turd? What's the point of this thread?

Agreed wookiee..I am not the greatest supporter of Berman. But, for me, Rick Berman's tenure was a success, not the failure some make it out to be.

600+ hours of TV, some good some bad, is an impossible fete. And despite what the OP says, Generations and FC (i favor generation) are two well made movies. Nemesis and Insurrection not so).

But BERMAN is not an A-hole.

Rob

 

[CoveTom]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

During the The Next Generation episode "Sarek", the writers were not allowed to use the name "Spock" when talking about Sarek's son.

First off, that wasn't a Berman edict. That was a Roddenberry one, and Ron Moore has confirmed as such. Despite his early tendancy to reuse TOS elements, Roddenberry was rather adament that TNG not mention TOS characters, ships, anything of the sort. Rick Berman continued to enforce that for some time.

Second, in the episode "Sarek," Spock's name -is- used, during the mind meld scene.

Third, this hardly qualifies as evidence of, as the poster I quoted contended, "bashing Star Trek at every opportunity" or "calling the fans stupid."

I'm still waiting to see sources for either of those things.

 

[Jeyl]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

He said Kes didn't work. He's an a**hole.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

He said Kes didn't work. He's an a**hole.

If he said Kes didn't work then he, on that occasion, was a visionary.

Rob

 

[Jeyl]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

I'm still waiting to see sources for either of those things.

Here you go. ign.com's interview with Ron Moore

MOORE: Yeah. Rick's rule was that you couldn't mention Kirk or Spock, in any context. Their names were not allowed to be mentioned. And it got to the point where – Ira probably told you this story – where he and I were working on "Sarek" in Season 3, and Sarek is doing this whole mindmeld thing with Picard, and we're dealing with his life and his mental well-being, and to an extent his emotional well-being. And how can you not mention Spock? And Rick was like, "No. You can't mention his name."

 

[Jeyl]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

He said Kes didn't work. He's an a**hole.

If he said Kes didn't work then he, on that occasion, was a visionary.

Oh right. 'Ensign forever' Kim, that flip flopping Captain Janeway and the ever screen stealing, always annoying, rarely a help to anyone character known as Neelix were all brilliant characters compared to the calm and collected Kes.

 

[CoveTom]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

Here you go. ign.com's interview with Ron Moore

MOORE: Yeah. Rick's rule was that you couldn't mention Kirk or Spock, in any context. Their names were not allowed to be mentioned. And it got to the point where – Ira probably told you this story – where he and I were working on "Sarek" in Season 3, and Sarek is doing this whole mindmeld thing with Picard, and we're dealing with his life and his mental well-being, and to an extent his emotional well-being. And how can you not mention Spock? And Rick was like, "No. You can't mention his name."

Thanks for looking that up. I've read that interview before, but couldn't remember the exact quote.

But I think I may have been unclear on what I meant. I know about the Kirk/Spock thing and "Sarek." But that's one isolated thing related to what would be included in dialogue, and I believe that stems from Roddenberry's desire to avoid all references to TOS.

What I meant that I was looking to see the sources for the claim, made by captain crow, that Rick Berman "bashed the original Star Trek almost every chance he got" and "basicaly said that the fans were to stupid to relise [Enterprise] was the greatest thing ever made". I have seen a large number of interviews with Rick Berman and have yet to see him say anything that comes close to either of those things.

So I'm still waiting for those sources.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

Here you go. ign.com's interview with Ron Moore

MOORE: Yeah. Rick's rule was that you couldn't mention Kirk or Spock, in any context. Their names were not allowed to be mentioned. And it got to the point where – Ira probably told you this story – where he and I were working on "Sarek" in Season 3, and Sarek is doing this whole mindmeld thing with Picard, and we're dealing with his life and his mental well-being, and to an extent his emotional well-being. And how can you not mention Spock? And Rick was like, "No. You can't mention his name."

Thanks for looking that up. I've read that interview before, but couldn't remember the exact quote.

But I think I may have been unclear on what I meant. I know about the Kirk/Spock thing and "Sarek." But that's one isolated thing related to what would be included in dialogue, and I believe that stems from Roddenberry's desire to avoid all references to TOS.

What I meant that I was looking to see the sources for the claim, made by captain crow, that Rick Berman "bashed the original Star Trek almost every chance he got" and "basicaly said that the fans were to stupid to relise [Enterprise] was the greatest thing ever made". I have seen a large number of interviews with Rick Berman and have yet to see him say anything that comes close to either of those things.

So I'm still waiting for those sources.

But he does mention Spock in the meld. "Amanda, Spock, did you know how much I loved you"..that's how I remember it...and I thought, as delivered, it conveyed the message that they were dead

Rob

 

[Jeyl]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

But I think I may have been unclear on what I meant. I know about the Kirk/Spock thing and "Sarek." But that's one isolated thing related to what would be included in dialogue, and I believe that stems from Roddenberry's desire to avoid all references to TOS.

So I'm still waiting for those sources.

.....why else would he make a rule to not mention Kirk and Spock?

And I think you have your characters mixed up, cause from what I can tell, Roddenberry didn't do too good of a job at avoiding all references to TOS since the first two episodes of TNG contain massive references to TOS. The ship is named Enterprise, Encounter at Farpoint had McCoy and The Naked Now had that bloody alcohol virus where the characters reference the episode right down to naming Kirk and the diagnosis McCoy made. It looks to me that Rick was the anti-TOS, not Gene.

 

[CoveTom]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

^ Why else would he make a rule to avoid mentioning Kirk and Spock? I dunno. Perhaps because he wanted TNG to stand alone, to differentiate itself from TOS, etc.? Maybe he just thought name dropping would be to "fanboyish" and seem over the top? There are other possible explanations besides a deep-seated hatred for TOS.

In any case, even Ron Moore has admitted that Berman lightened and eventually eliminated that type of restriction, eventually featuring most all of the TOS cast at some point throughout the 24th century series and movies. And it is well documented that, despite the re-use of elements from TOS in the first couple of episodes, that Roddenberry was overall adament about not wanting to do "TOS stuff," even to the point of the others having to fight him to have a Klingon character.

But, regardless, this is one instance of one particular rule that was enforced about what could be mentioned in dialogue. That's a far cry from bashing the original Star Trek at "every chance he got". Nor is it evidence that Berman ever called the fans stupid.

I'm still waiting for evidence of either of those things.

 

[RandyS]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

By far the worst single year of Star Trek--worse than ENT, worse than VOY, worse than TOS's third season--was season one of TNG.

Really? For me it was season three of Voyager. Never in the history of any of the Star Trek shows was the writing as consistently bad as that season. If it hadn't been for a few bright spots, such as "Flashback" (a weak episode sure, but better that most that year), and "Future's End", that year would have been a total write off. I'm sure there are one or two others, but that year was SO bad, I don't remember most of it.

 

[trevanian]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

I was looking to see the sources for the claim, made by captain crow, that Rick Berman "bashed the original Star Trek almost every chance he got" and "basicaly said that the fans were to stupid to relise [Enterprise] was the greatest thing ever made". I have seen a large number of interviews with Rick Berman and have yet to see him say anything that comes close to either of those things.

So I'm still waiting for those sources.

Don't know about the second part, but the bashing of TOS I recall from one of the CFQ issues on TNG, probably season 4 or 5 recap, where he is dismissive of a lot of TOS on the basis of costuming and greek gods coming out and words to that effect. I think Hurley was quoted along the same lines as well earlier, but Berman definitely seemed to think TOS was way off in style and execution ... which fits with my view of HIM, since I found his taste to be ... tasteless, which goes with his notions of scoring and camera movement and everything else they did wrong in the 80s on TNG and in the 90s on VGR and ENT. I won't blame the old-fashioned storytelling on him, because Piller was clearly behind the times on that, but Berman certainly could have championed a more cutting-edge approach, but that again would have not been in keeping with his only skill - to keep the train running on time.

 

[Bones2]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

By far the worst single year of Star Trek--worse than ENT, worse than VOY, worse than TOS's third season--was season one of TNG.

Really? For me it was season three of Voyager. Never in the history of any of the Star Trek shows was the writing as consistently bad as that season. If it hadn't been for a few bright spots, such as "Flashback" (a weak episode sure, but better that most that year), and "Future's End", that year would have been a total write off. I'm sure there are one or two others, but that year was SO bad, I don't remember most of it.

You're joking right? It's been a while since I've seen any VOY, but looking at the episodes, I recall a lot of my favourites being in there. As well as part 2 of Basics, part 2 of Scorpion, and Flashback, there was The Swarm, The Chute, Distant Origin, Macrocosm, and Worst Case Scenario.

 

[Kegg]

At its worst, VOY was terminally bland and conservative. The series lacked the sort of leverage needed for inspired awfulness that early TNG was able to sink to. As such, no, I don't think any season of VOY was worse than TNG's first season (and I'd agree with Bones that some of the better VOY episodes occured in season three.)

Though it is hard to say because VOY's seasons have become a sort of sameness in my mind.

 

[TheGodBen]

I think that Voyager's third season is easily the weakest of that show and Voyager is my least favourite Trek series... but TNG season 1 is still one of the worst pieces of television ever produced. I can only rewatch it these days because I know how good the show becomes later (much like DS9's first season) but when it was first run I can't understand why anybody kept watching. Trek was very lucky to manage another 24 seasons based on that muck.

 

[Bones2]

Yeah, I often wonder how Trek got another shot after that first season of TNG. The demand must have been so high that people would swallow anything.

That said, Conspiracy's terrific, and The Battle and Code of Hono(u)r are alright. Largely dross otherwise though.

 

[ClayinCA]

Re: Rick Berman's an asshole

...yeah, but wasn't The Naked Now about the third episode?

Yup. Ironically that's what I was thinking of - they made a point of not mentioning Kirk there even though the episode required them to bring up his starship.

But he is mentioned by name, at the time they look up the original Enterprise's mission log.

But yeah, B&B, not big fans of TOS. I like to think their attitue to TOS was summed up in "Flashback" - cracks about cowboy diplomacy

That was "Unification," not "Flashback;" Picard accuses Spock of practicing "cowboy diplomacy," and Spock doesn't take too well to this term.

 

[Kegg]

That was "Unification," not "Flashback;" Picard accuses Spock of practicing "cowboy diplomacy," and Spock doesn't take too well to this term.

I was thinking of this quote:

Space must have seemed a whole lot bigger back then. It's not surprising they had to bend the rules a little. They were a little slower to invoke the Prime Directive, and a little quicker to pull their phasers. Of course, the whole bunch of them would be booted out of Starfleet today.

Same deal, no?

Yeah, I often wonder how Trek got another shot after that first season of TNG. The demand must have been so high that people would swallow anything.

That said, Conspiracy's terrific, and The Battle and Code of Hono(u)r are alright. Largely dross otherwise though.

"Code of Honor" is far from the least watchable episode in the season ("When the Bough Breaks" is more unbearable an experience), but it earns special disfavour for its notorious racism, which has earned it a rightly earned place of dishonour as one of the worst episodes of Trek ever made.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

As a self-respecting black man who has fought this battle one too many times on this board, I won't even debate the merits of "Code of Honor" any more than I'll debate the merits of "Triumph of the Will" or "Birth of a Nation." (Actually, I give more credit to the latter two--for all their celebration of rabid bigotry, they at least represented arguable innovations in cinema. "CoH" was just stupid.)

"Conspiracy" was stupid fun--emphasis on stupid rather than fun.

I think that Voyager's third season is easily the weakest of that show and Voyager is my least favourite Trek series... but TNG season 1 is still one of the worst pieces of television ever produced. I can only rewatch it these days because I know how good the show becomes later (much like DS9's first season) but when it was first run I can't understand why anybody kept watching. Trek was very lucky to manage another 24 seasons based on that muck.

Because idiots like me simply could not miss an episode. It was Star Trek and were Trekkies. Not coincidentally, this is why any argument on the board that suggests that Trekkies are obligated to consume whatever Paramount puts out under the Star Trek brand galls me in the extreme. I learned my lesson. Indeed, realizing that I don't have to watch every hour of Trek (I've still missed more ENT than I've seen) was as big a milestone as losing my virginity.

 

[Kegg]

I don't get why people defend it, to be honest. Ignoring the racism (of which I was completely oblivious as a child when I first saw it) it's a pretty stupid and painful episode.