Rewatching Voyager

[Archimago]

Night

Season 5 starts with an episode I've always had an issue with. That issue has always been Captain Janeway, and her secluding herself in her quarters in a time of crisis. Ok, I get that it's nothingness outside and you have time to reflect and ponder the last four years. My issue though is the captain's admittance that it was selfish to strand Voyager in the Delta Quadrant was pretty selfish in and of itself. The crew's moral is at a low, and this was the same woman who said she didn't want to break up the crew because it was a Family. Now I know that is an alternate timeline (Year of Hell) but I think in her heart she does believe that, that the crew is stronger as a team than when the leader is sulking in her quarters.

I think the thing that saves this episode though was the end. We see the crew standing up to Janeway, saying that yeah while you were feeling sorry for yourself, we also did a lot of thinking and you are the captain. I loved the little mutiny scene because it really put Janeway in her place.

As for the rest of the episode, I'm not a fan of the Malon, even though that story is still commentary in todays world, the amount of waste that we use and how it poisons the environment. I did like the other creatures though, and the Malon ships are pretty impressive.

I think this epsiode was trying to represent our society and it achieved this well in many ways. The Malon are like the MEDCS (More economically developed countries) preying on people who are unable to defend themselves and just have to accept explotation (LEDCS). The crew are people who are trying to tackle the change the MEDCS are ignorant to the methods that will help them like the Malon who sees the technology that will help but refuses to use it. All Becuase of the money he will lose just like real life people are too focused on the money to see the wider impacts of there actions. (Sorry about that rant I'm quite pro climate change and this epsiode summaries the situation well)

Janeway's actions here were questionable I'm not 100% sure her actions were very Janeway like but her recovery at the end was true Janeway and was very enjoyable to watch.

 

[stardream]

I loved Night. It's one of my favorite episodes. Everyone in the crew got a little something to do and they were paired off in combinations we don't normally see. We don't see Chakotay and Neelix together a lot, or Tuvok and Harry or Tom and Seven.

Janeway is not allowed to have moments when she is forced to think about all her past decisions? Picard was and so was Sisko. They all had their moments of doubt but they all had either family or a counselor or SOMEONE there for them. Janeway had no counselor, no 'prophets', or family to run home to. She had to face her demons at some point and she believed she was alone. There was escaping herself in the dark black void. I believe this episode was meant to address some of the issues left over from Caretaker. Yes, Janeway probably did think about all those other options that fans are constantly bringing up and rejected them. I don't know if the writers had this in mind but this season marks the five year anniversary of leaving Ocampa. Their stored power would have run out by now. Did they make it? Are they still there? Have they been overrun by the Kazon or assimilated by the Borg? Was her sacrifice worth it? I like the idea of her taking stock of their situation and mulling over all of this in her mind.
I don't see her retreating to a private place much worse than what Sisko did in Emissary or what Picard did in Family (or First Contact).
I loved the mutiny at the end as well.
That's just my take on it and it's just my own opinion.

 

[Archimago]

I loved Night. It's one of my favorite episodes. Everyone in the crew got a little something to do and they were paired off in combinations we don't normally see. We don't see Chakotay and Neelix together a lot, or Tuvok and Harry or Tom and Seven.

Janeway is not allowed to have moments when she is forced to think about all her past decisions? Picard was and so was Sisko. They all had their moments of doubt but they all had either family or a counselor or SOMEONE there for them. Janeway had no counselor, no 'prophets', or family to run home to. She had to face her demons at some point and she believed she was alone. There was escaping herself in the dark black void. I believe this episode was meant to address some of the issues left over from Caretaker. Yes, Janeway probably did think about all those other options that fans are constantly bringing up and rejected them. I don't know if the writers had this in mind but this season marks the five year anniversary of leaving Ocampa. Their stored power would have run out by now. Did they make it? Are they still there? Have they been overrun by the Kazon or assimilated by the Borg? Was her sacrifice worth it? I like the idea of her taking stock of their situation and mulling over all of this in her mind.
I don't see her retreating to a private place much worse than what Sisko did in Emissary or what Picard did in Family (or First Contact).
I loved the mutiny at the end as well.
That's just my take on it and it's just my own opinion.

Interesting and well said. I suppose we are so used to seeing Janeway as the leader the unfalliable women who cant be moved by anything or anyone. To be alone to want no one and to accept no help. And to not be there for her crew when they really need the morale boost. I understand the action she took with the ocampa she had to do what she did there was no choice, but she csnt escape that moment of every person that has died on her trip home she is reasonable for that death it has to sit on her shoulders. And finally they sagged she gave in. And the result was evident in night. And is why she wanted to stay behind and take the long way around.

I think a lot of people like myself just judge a little too hard since it hard for us to see Janeway I'm this grief stricken state.

 

[Thomas Eugene]

And yes there can be no comparison between Voyager and SGU. I do actually like SGU but they have completely different feelings aboard the ship. And unusually I don't actually like Eli that much he just bugs me. Rush is one of my favorites (I know your opinions of him aren't great haha!) But the epsiode memory was just the best epsiode of season 1 I think anyway it made me like him xD

As you wish. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. I can actually see why you might like Rush - I find it strange you don't like Ely.
In any case, I think SGU was a failure. And what was even worse about it was that they cancelled Atlantis because of this when it was soo good.
Also, the only reason I brought it up here was that people keep comparing the two shows all the time. I can't comprehend that. VOY is so much better in my book. The closest we have to SGU on VOY is Year Of Hell and that two parter was more than enough for me. I think that episode sticks out like a sore thumb. It's so much NOT Voyager. There's nothing wrong with it, it was interesting and all but many people would have liked a whole season of VOY in Year Of Hell style (or even the whole show in Year of Hell style) and I'm so grateful the creators of the show never did that. Thanks, guys.
If people want dark, they should watch SGU or ST: DS9. Now this one is a particularly dark show. Still, it's a lot preferable to SGU in my book because at least the main characters are likeable (except for their counterparts in the Mirror Univers where everyone is an a...hole - but those are only a few episodes).

Finally yuus is defenitly not a real word its just a coliqeual way of saying yes

Thanks.

I'm not 100% sure if you have read this scene. Do you remember Farkas ranting at Janeway about her decisions. She tells her about the wrong choice she made with the transwarp hub and a few others and how she would not want her to ever command the fleet. I think you would have enjoyed it if you haven't read it. She really hits Janeway in the heart but over the next few books there respect for each other grows and they become a formidable pair. I must say time between each ship is equally split we don't spend too much time with one captain which is nice. So yes we spend a reasonable amount of time with her. She actually brings the comedy to the books more often than not. Do you remember doctor Sal? There scenes always make me chuckle. And she had me laughing when she is talking to her first officer at the end of the book. She is kind hearted a well developed chracter but has a tough side which is shown when she confronts Janeway. But yes I think you would enjoy her development if you kept reading!

I guess these things must have happened after The Eternal Tide. It was the last VOY book I read. Perhaps I'll go on with PROTECTORS - sometime in the future.

You never know there is another novel coming out she may a dress the Hirogen at some point!

True. What I can't understand is that VOY is more than 20 years old and no one has ever written a Hirogen-based novel yet. Strange, to me they were the best villains.
Also if Kirsten Beyer should decide to write one about the Hirogens, I'll be forced to read all the previous ones.

I loved Night.

So did I. I think you summed it up perfectly, except perhaps that there's nothing unsual about those pairings. On Voyager everyone is often paired up with everyone else, and any of those pairings feel so natural to me. One of the reasons that adds to the familial atmosphere of the series.
To me, the whole episode makes so much sense: after four years of constant fight (against your enemies and for your survival), here's a chance to reflect upon past events. Perhaps at the time of CARETAKER, Janeway's decision was rushed - well, not from where I'm standing but perhaps this is how she feels about it. Perhaps back then when she had to make a decison in the heat of the moment, when she didn't have the time to weigh up the consequences, it seemed like a good idea to try to save the Ocampan. Perhaps back then, Janeway related to the predicament of the Cartaker too much - she might even have been overwhelmed by the responsibility he was facing - and she wanted to do all she could both for the Ocampan and for a dying "man" whose only last wish was to find someone who could continue doing his work.
Now, four years later (only four years have elapsed, not five!), the void that they've entered gives her a chance to reflect on those decisions. Did she do the right thing? Would she do it again? Her ponderings lead her to come to the conclusion that she could have acted in a different way. That perhaps what she did was selfish and narrow-minded.
But was it really? I'm not sure. I think trying to save a whole planet at the expense of stranding 150 people in the Delta Quadrant is never selfish. But it's easy for me: I'm not the one who has to be confronted with the consequences of this decision. I am the one who sits down in front of his PC and watches how the person whose responsibility this is is trying to cope with its repercussions.
And the one who can see with his own very eyes that he should be grateful for not having been in Captain Janeway's place. It's she that has to see people feeling lonely on a daily basis, it's she that has to listen to Harry Kim's rants about how much he wants to go home and how difficult it is for his parents. It's she that sometimes (=often) sees a crew member's facial expression that says how (s)he wishes (s)he were at home now.
These are circumstances that might force you to reconsider ... that might force you even to go a little nuts if you are not strong enough psychologically. But Janeway's mind is crytsal clear: she knows that even a few borg cubes would be a good distraction in the middle of nowhere - something that is normally avoided at all costs. Obviously, borg cubes could ensure the sanity of your mind and if they are not available, books will have to do. They are perhaps not as suitable as borg cubes to make you vigilant but at least they prove to be a distraction of some kind.
Luckily for her, history repeats itself. And guess what, she is in a very similar situation: is she supposed to save aliens or is she supposed to save her ship? She's done the former thing already and we can see how it ended up for her emotionally. It's time to try out the alternative.
Or is it? Well, Janeway is still our Janeway and she knows better. Of course, she can't turn her back on a chance to save these creatures who asked for her help - but this time she'll do it in a way that she won't have to make sacrifices that are unfavourable for her crew. She is going to have the cake and eat it as well. So she comes up with a plan that seems a brilliant solution to her: she alone will atone for what she did years ago but she'll save her crew. No matter what the costs: this time, it can't be worse than her life if the worst comes to the worst. So she is determined to see it through.
Luckily for us she isn't prepared for the resourcefulness of her crew - and with this we get a brilliant episode ... For me, this is VOYAGER at its best.

 

[tomalak301]

I'm glad I read you guys' comments because in doing so I wonder if I'm not being fair to Janeway. I guess I'm looking at it from a moral point of view, and any crew is as good as the captain that commands it. Of course she can reflect on the past, and I watch this episode last night and it's a great one in terms of pausing for refliction. Still it was her choosing to be isolated from the crew, and the thing that struck me more this time than before was how the crew responds by staging a little mutiny just to tell the captain that yes we are in this together.

Also, something I forgot to mention, I loved Paris's line "does the phrase 'to be continued' mean anything to you?" I wonder if that was a dig at the fact that Voyager didn't have a TBC to end season four.

 

[Archimago]

As you wish. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. I can actually see why you might like Rush - I find it strange you don't like Ely.
In any case, I think SGU was a failure. And what was even worse about it was that they cancelled Atlantis because of this when it was soo good.
Also, the only reason I brought it up here was that people keep comparing the two shows all the time. I can't comprehend that. VOY is so much better in my book. The closest we have to SGU on VOY is Year Of Hell and that two parter was more than enough for me. I think that episode sticks out like a sore thumb. It's so much NOT Voyager. There's nothing wrong with it, it was interesting and all but many people would have liked a whole season of VOY in Year Of Hell style (or even the whole show in Year of Hell style) and I'm so grateful the creators of the show never did that. Thanks, guys.
If people want dark, they should watch SGU or ST: DS9. Now this one is a particularly dark show. Still, it's a lot preferable to SGU in my book because at least the main characters are likeable (except for their counterparts in the Mirror Univers where everyone is an a...hole - but those are only a few episodes).

Thanks.

I guess these things must have happened after The Eternal Tide. It was the last VOY book I read. Perhaps I'll go on with PROTECTORS - sometime in the future.

True. What I can't understand is that VOY is more than 20 years old and no one has ever written a Hirogen-based novel yet. Strange, to me they were the best villains.
Also if Kirsten Beyer should decide to write one about the Hirogens, I'll be forced to read all the previous ones.

So did I. I think you summed it up perfectly, except perhaps that there's nothing unsual about those pairings. On Voyager everyone is often paired up with everyone else, and any of those pairings feel so natural to me. One of the reasons that adds to the familial atmosphere of the series.
To me, the whole episode makes so much sense: after four years of constant fight (against your enemies and for your survival), here's a chance to reflect upon past events. Perhaps at the time of CARETAKER, Janeway's decision was rushed - well, not from where I'm standing but perhaps this is how she feels about it. Perhaps back then when she had to make a decison in the heat of the moment, when she didn't have the time to weigh up the consequences, it seemed like a good idea to try to save the Ocampan. Perhaps back then, Janeway related to the predicament of the Cartaker too much - she might even have been overwhelmed by the responsibility he was facing - and she wanted to do all she could both for the Ocampan and for a dying "man" whose only last wish was to find someone who could continue doing his work.
Now, four years later (only four years have elapsed, not five!), the void that they've entered gives her a chance to reflect on those decisions. Did she do the right thing? Would she do it again? Her ponderings lead her to come to the conclusion that she could have acted in a different way. That perhaps what she did was selfish and narrow-minded.
But was it really? I'm not sure. I think trying to save a whole planet at the expense of stranding 150 people in the Delta Quadrant is never selfish. But it's easy for me: I'm not the one who has to be confronted with the consequences of this decision. I am the one who sits down in front of his PC and watches how the person whose responsibility this is is trying to cope with its repercussions.
And the one who can see with his own very eyes that he should be grateful for not having been in Captain Janeway's place. It's she that has to see people feeling lonely on a daily basis, it's she that has to listen to Harry Kim's rants about how much he wants to go home and how difficult it is for his parents. It's she that sometimes (=often) sees a crew member's facial expression that says how (s)he wishes (s)he were at home now.
These are circumstances that might force you to reconsider ... that might force you even to go a little nuts if you are not strong enough psychologically. But Janeway's mind is crytsal clear: she knows that even a few borg cubes would be a good distraction in the middle of nowhere - something that is normally avoided at all costs. Obviously, borg cubes could ensure the sanity of your mind and if they are not available, books will have to do. They are perhaps not as suitable as borg cubes to make you vigilant but at least they prove to be a distraction of some kind.
Luckily for her, history repeats itself. And guess what, she is in a very similar situation: is she supposed to save aliens or is she supposed to save her ship? She's done the former thing already and we can see how it ended up for her emotionally. It's time to try out the alternative.
Or is it? Well, Janeway is still our Janeway and she knows better. Of course, she can't turn her back on a chance to save these creatures who asked for her help - but this time she'll do it in a way that she won't have to make sacrifices that are unfavourable for her crew. She is going to have the cake and eat it as well. So she comes up with a plan that seems a brilliant solution to her: she alone will atone for what she did years ago but she'll save her crew. No matter what the costs: this time, it can't be worse than her life if the worst comes to the worst. So she is determined to see it through.
Luckily for us she isn't prepared for the resourcefulness of her crew - and with this we get a brilliant episode ... For me, this is VOYAGER at its best.

I might have phrased this badly earlier Ely Is a nice guy I enjoy when he comes up with a great solution to things, but it's his panicked rants that annoy me when he is blatantly over reacting to a situation, or his awkward times with chole. Rush Is a doosh and often is ignorant to feelings and is impersonal and cannot deal working with others that don't understand. But I know in there somewhere he is there the real him someone who can be nice and understanding we have defenitly glimpsed it before and I think his character has so much potential to develop.

Yes they did mainly occur after eternal tide yell me if you do read them!

And nice review of night An enjoyable insight

 

[Archimago]

I'm glad I read you guys' comments because in doing so I wonder if I'm not being fair to Janeway. I guess I'm looking at it from a moral point of view, and any crew is as good as the captain that commands it. Of course she can reflect on the past, and I watch this episode last night and it's a great one in terms of pausing for refliction. Still it was her choosing to be isolated from the crew, and the thing that struck me more this time than before was how the crew responds by staging a little mutiny just to tell the captain that yes we are in this together.

Also, something I forgot to mention, I loved Paris's line "does the phrase 'to be continued' mean anything to you?" I wonder if that was a dig at the fact that Voyager didn't have a TBC to end season four.

It's nice to have aN epsiode or issue looked at from more than one set of eyes it can make you reconsider and develop your own view point. And yeah I thought very similar things to you when I first watched but stardream made me reconsider how I felt about it.

And nice spot with Tom I never noticed that!

 

[tomalak301]

Drone

What an emotional episode this was. We're in the 5th season and I still don't think Voyager has ruined the Borg. In fact, that whole statement feels, overstated. Of course we're going to get Borg themes because Voyager's most interesting character was a Borg. Anyway, that's more general, and I should discuss Drone. This is a great episode, showing the student becoming the teacher and I loved the interplay between Seven and One. We see One learn and grow, leading up to believing the only way to save the crew is to sacrifice himself. That's a very poignant scene and Seven's reaction is sad. The character development of One in this episode deserved that reaction.

Extreme Risk

This isn't my favorite Torres episode, but it's ok. I liked that we got a follow up to what Chakotay told her and how she's been feeling about it. I don't believe we have to see that progression, because that might be a little repetitive. I do admit, it would have been nice to have a hint of what she was feeling in the remaining season 4 episodes, but I thought overall it was handled very nicely.

This episode also introduced Voyager's new ship, The Delta Flyer. It's amazing that this ship plays such a big role in the remainder of the series that I wish they had built it earlier, like post The Killing Game. I also wonder if they have resources to build a ship, why can't they build two or three. It would take care of the never ending shuttles issue that pops up on Voyager from time to time.

 

[Archimago]

Drone

What an emotional episode this was. We're in the 5th season and I still don't think Voyager has ruined the Borg. In fact, that whole statement feels, overstated. Of course we're going to get Borg themes because Voyager's most interesting character was a Borg. Anyway, that's more general, and I should discuss Drone. This is a great episode, showing the student becoming the teacher and I loved the interplay between Seven and One. We see One learn and grow, leading up to believing the only way to save the crew is to sacrifice himself. That's a very poignant scene and Seven's reaction is sad. The character development of One in this episode deserved that reaction.

Extreme Risk

This isn't my favorite Torres episode, but it's ok. I liked that we got a follow up to what Chakotay told her and how she's been feeling about it. I don't believe we have to see that progression, because that might be a little repetitive. I do admit, it would have been nice to have a hint of what she was feeling in the remaining season 4 episodes, but I thought overall it was handled very nicely.

This episode also introduced Voyager's new ship, The Delta Flyer. It's amazing that this ship plays such a big role in the remainder of the series that I wish they had built it earlier, like post The Killing Game. I also wonder if they have resources to build a ship, why can't they build two or three. It would take care of the never ending shuttles issue that pops up on Voyager from time to time.

Drone is a great epsiode, and has a very poignant scene at the end. It put's seven in an unusual position, she must teach someone else humanity. It's also kinda scary to see a 23rd century borg...

I'm not sure what the back story to extreme risk was but I know Torres is not feeling anything so keeps taking bigger and bigger risks. The holodeck scenes are enjoyable, and her interactions with Chakotay are great. As you say the delta flyer plays a massive role in the 3 seasons its built for. It's toms true love really

 

[stardream]

Drone is ok. It is one of those episodes I forget about until a re-watch but when it shows up in the line up I don't skip it. I believe this is probably the beginning of Seven's next character arc. She seems to get one every season. Yes, it was great to see Seven be the 'teacher' for once.

Extreme Risk is a frustrating episode for me. I LOVE the Delta Flyer (see my avatar but B'Elanna's story comes close to making me angry. I LIKE that they highlight depression and self-harm and I think Dawson and Beltran do a good job (and it's a good thing it was Chakotay that helped her as they had a shared history with the Maquis) but the ending where she is sitting there smiling at her pancakes is just so unsatisfying to me. Makes me want to throw things. Severe clinical depression doesn't just go away like that. I don't know where Hux is these days but this episode would always set him off on a rant. So I liked it...up to a point. (and the fanfics from this episode are many. There are a lot of fans out there who felt the same, apparently, people who suffer from CD in real life. Some really didn't like that they didn't have a makeup scene with Tom but I personally assumed that everything was going to be alright after she showed up on the Flyer.) The resolution I hated. I have similar frustrations with the ending of Memorial but that can wait until we get there.

 

[Archimago]

Drone is ok. It is one of those episodes I forget about until a re-watch but when it shows up in the line up I don't skip it. I believe this is probably the beginning of Seven's next character arc. She seems to get one every season. Yes, it was great to see Seven be the 'teacher' for once.

Extreme Risk is a frustrating episode for me. I LOVE the Delta Flyer (see my avatar but B'Elanna's story comes close to making me angry. I LIKE that they highlight depression and self-harm and I think Dawson and Beltran do a good job (and it's a good thing it was Chakotay that helped her as they had a shared history with the Maquis) but the ending where she is sitting there smiling at her pancakes is just so unsatisfying to me. Makes me want to throw things. Severe clinical depression doesn't just go away like that. I don't know where Hux is these days but this episode would always set him off on a rant. So I liked it...up to a point. (and the fanfics from this episode are many. There are a lot of fans out there who felt the same, apparently, people who suffer from CD in real life. Some really didn't like that they didn't have a makeup scene with Tom but I personally assumed that everything was going to be alright after she showed up on the Flyer.) The resolution I hated. I have similar frustrations with the ending of Memorial but that can wait until we get there.

Yeah all three of my best friends have depression two of them have self harmed people say it's just made up it was never around in there day and that's Becuase it wasn't properly diagnosed it's very frustrating . Mental health is one of the most underfunded and underecognised issues I'm not sure if it's worldwide but certainly in the UK, and yes it's not over in a matter of days or in a few conversations. Which it is in this epsiode . This epsiode is showing the stigma around mental health and it is often improperly portryed by TV shows and the media.

Saying this, it didn't mean I thought the epsiode was bad, I need to rewatch it because I've forgotten a lot about it.

 

[Overgeeked]

Don't mean to hijack, but I'm starting something of a rewatch myself. Not sure how consistent I'll be, so rather than starting a new thread, I'll just post here...

I love Caretaker. It's one of the better (top 2) Trek pilots they've done. Sets up the premise of the show perfectly, including a heap of interpersonal tension just waiting to boil over from time to time. I was really disappointed when they fully integrated the crew by the second episode and basically hobbled half of the show's premise. The Federation / Maquis tension could have played out a lot longer and driven the stories a lot more.

Parallax was decent enough. A time travel space anomaly episode that's the A-story, whilst the B-story is B'Elanna earning the spot as chief engineer. Intro of the spirit animal guide and B'Elanna being the only person to attack theirs. Kind of generic but shows a bit of the potential for the Fed / Maquis split in the crew. Largely undercut and eliminated in the first 2-3 episodes.

Time and Again...woot, another time travel space anomaly episode. At least this one has more overt jeopardy and is more concrete to Parallax's abstract threat. Some decent ideas and oddities, though the bootstrap paradox is a bit lame, as is a lot of the acting and writing. You mean there's a threat to this entire world and civilization, and the terrorists are running inside the power plant to mess with it? Good, let's hang out on the lawn and jaw for a few minutes. I did like the more grounded nature of this one compared to Parallax.

Phage. Like a lot of Trek fans I'm also a fan of science and science news. So when this one rolled along all I kept thinking of was the advances in stem cells, growing organs from stem cells, cloning, and 3D printing of organs. Interesting episode and some horrific (in a good way) makeup for the aliens. Nice all around episode with a solid premise to compel the story and crew into action. Drove home a lot of empathy for Neelix who'd till this episode basically been a doofier Quark with no clear motivation.

The Cloud. Ugh. There's coffee in that nebula. Whatever good will and empathy garnered for Neelix in the Phage was instantly lost here. One replicator ration to get a cup of coffee or depleting 20% of the ships reserves just because Janeway listened to Neelix of all people about setting an example. Right, like Neelix sets an example in this episode. My least favorite style of Trek story. The abstract thing that's somehow a threat, carried along by too much technobabble and not enough elbow grease.

And that's where my rewatch is so far. Not much of one, but it's a start.

 

[tomalak301]

In the Flesh

I liked this episode, but man is it frustrating. This is representative of Star Trek Ideals, to make peace by diplomatic means and on that end the episode really works. I also loved seeing Kate Vernon (Ellen Tigh in BSG) here and this is what Unforgettable should have been, minus the 8472 stuff and all.

Why I think the episode was frustrating was because I feel it is incomplete. 8472 kinda got Neutered here, going from "We will purge the Galaxy of ALL life" to "We were just defending ourselves". We never find out the real reason why 8472 almost killed Harry Kim (Another thing that wasn't even brought up) and we never found out what they truely were called. I almost feel like this episode could have been a 90 minute show, so at least we can see something of a finality. Of course I'm also speaking as someone who has seen the entire series a few times but doesn't remember if we ever see 8472 again. I know we don't see them in Season 7. I don't think we see them in Season 6 either.

Still, it was a decent episode with a very Star Trek ideal. I just wish more would have gone into it.

 

[Thomas Eugene]

Don't mean to hijack, but I'm starting something of a rewatch myself. Not sure how consistent I'll be, so rather than starting a new thread, I'll just post here...

Good morning, Overgeeked and welcome to tomalak's thread. This is fundamentally a Voyager-friendly thread so let's hope you are also someone who basically likes this show. Last year, it celebrated its 20th anniversary - who could have guessed it was as old as that? - but it still feels quite fresh to me. I guess on this occasion, many people started a rewatch:

I love Caretaker. It's one of the better (top 2) Trek pilots they've done.

For me, this is undoubtedly the best Season 1 episode. I guess once you start watching it, you are immediately hooked. I especially liked Janeway's speech at the end of the episode. She usually gets the best lines in the entire show but this speech is probably the most memorable:

(You must have noticed how I make a lot of desktop wallpapers so whenever an episode is discussed which I have wallpapers for, I usually share one or two).

Parallax was decent enough.

I know that many don't like this episode for the quick integration of the Maquis into the Starfleet crew - they say assimilating the Maquis just after two episodes is something the borg would be impressed by.
However, I see things in a different way here. They are a long way away from their home, at this point of the show it seems like there's zero chance for them to ever make it back, which also means that the cause the Maquis are fighting for is a long way away from here, too. What could Chakotay have done in this situation? It's evident that he thought the best solution was to integrate the crew into the other crew and see how this plays out over the long term.
I think it's also apparent to us, viewers, that Chakotay is a different type of Maquis leader from those in DS9. He is a less feisty, more peaceful guy who is even willing to sacrifice the Val Jean in CARETAKER to save the Starfleet ship - so in a certain sense it was his decision to continue this journey aboard Voyager. This of course, doesn't mean there couldn't have been a bit more conflict between the two crews - but I actually understand that if it was your leader's choice to do things the way he did, you would more or less follow suit as a member of the Maquis.
In addition, in later episodes the conflict will be brought up - even if not as radically as perhaps a lot of people had expected.
BTW, PARALLAX also sets up the tone for what some of our main characters are going to be like: angry B'Elanna, overconfident/arrogant EMH, flower-loving Kes, decisive Janeway, supportive Chakotay, etc:

And who is Mr.Good-looking here? The best-looking guy in the galaxy, of course, More importantly, the guy who turns out to know a lot more about piloting the ship than quantum mechanics:

Time and Again...woot, another time travel space anomaly episode. At least this one has more overt jeopardy and is more concrete to Parallax's abstract threat. Some decent ideas and oddities, though the bootstrap paradox is a bit lame, as is a lot of the acting and writing. You mean there's a threat to this entire world and civilization, and the terrorists are running inside the power plant to mess with it? Good, let's hang out on the lawn and jaw for a few minutes. I did like the more grounded nature of this one compared to Parallax.

TIME AND AGAIN was cute, I thought. I mean, our heroes are still at the beginning of their journey, they don't even know each other and already they find themselves in challenging situations. Time travel, as we know from a later episode (YEAR OF HELL, I think) is something Janeway has always wanted avoid but has never managed. I quite like the idea that they are only shifted one day into the past - this is a good "practice ground" for them before having to tackle situations in which they will be centuries away from their own present.
And of course, a lot of people criticize the costumes. To me, they seem all right: very colourful, very unusual. This is a big galaxy, why should everyone follow Earth's fashions:

Phage. Like a lot of Trek fans I'm also a fan of science and science news. So when this one rolled along all I kept thinking of was the advances in stem cells, growing organs from stem cells, cloning, and 3D printing of organs. Interesting episode and some horrific (in a good way) makeup for the aliens. Nice all around episode with a solid premise to compel the story and crew into action. Drove home a lot of empathy for Neelix who'd till this episode basically been a doofier Quark with no clear motivation.

This episode was an excellent introduction for the Vidiians - Janeway shines at the end. Her determination to to everything for preventing the Vidiiians from collecting her crew's organs was spot-on. A very nice performance.
I also like the idea that the first signs of Neelix's jealousy are starting to manifest themselves - these will later be followed up on.
If there was something I didn't like about these earlier episodes, it was Kes's wigs. Mercifully they changed later. Here they seemed to be so .. meh:

The Cloud. Ugh. There's coffee in that nebula. Whatever good will and empathy garnered for Neelix in the Phage was instantly lost here. One replicator ration to get a cup of coffee or depleting 20% of the ships reserves just because Janeway listened to Neelix of all people about setting an example. Right, like Neelix sets an example in this episode. My least favorite style of Trek story. The abstract thing that's somehow a threat, carried along by too much technobabble and not enough elbow grease.

Oh, I love this episode (surprise, surprise, I love everything VOY except FURY). I think this is the very first episode in which what we could call "typical Voyager humour" is shown for the first time. The Doctor especially but everyone else as well. Janeway's line to Neelix "That's Starfleet for get-out" is a classic one and of course "There's coffee in that nebula" is by far the most famous quotation in Voyager, maybe in the entire ST franchise. I like how they started to show Chakotay's spirituality and the introduction of Chez Sandrine's was spot-on. Do you guys remember when Janeway says: "Commader Chakotay, your stick ..."? I crack up every time I hear it.

 

[Overgeeked]

Good morning, Overgeeked and welcome to tomalak's thread. This is fundamentally a Voyager-friendly thread so let's hope you are also someone who basically likes this show. Last year, it celebrated its 20th anniversary - who could have guessed it was as old as that? - but it still feels quite fresh to me. I guess on this occasion, many people started a rewatch:

For me, this is undoubtedly the best Season 1 episode. I guess once you start watching it, you are immediately hooked. I especially liked Janeway's speech at the end of the episode. She usually gets the best lines in the entire show but this speech is probably the most memorable:

(You must have noticed how I make a lot of desktop wallpapers so whenever an episode is discussed which I have wallpapers for, I usually share one or two).

I know that many don't like this episode for the quick integration of the Maquis into the Starfleet crew - they say assimilating the Maquis just after two episodes is something the borg would be impressed by.
However, I see things in a different way here. They are a long way away from their home, at this point of the show it seems like there's zero chance for them to ever make it back, which also means that the cause the Maquis are fighting for is a long way away from here, too. What could Chakotay have done in this situation? It's evident that he thought the best solution was to integrate the crew into the other crew and see how this plays out over the long term.
I think it's also apparent to us, viewers, that Chakotay is a different type of Maquis leader from those in DS9. He is a less feisty, more peaceful guy who is even willing to sacrifice the Val Jean in CARETAKER to save the Starfleet ship - so in a certain sense it was his decision to continue this journey aboard Voyager. This of course, doesn't mean there couldn't have been a bit more conflict between the two crews - but I actually understand that if it was your leader's choice to do things the way he did, you would more or less follow suit as a member of the Maquis.
In addition, in later episodes the conflict will be brought up - even if not as radically as perhaps a lot of people had expected.
BTW, PARALLAX also sets up the tone for what some of our main characters are going to be like: angry B'Elanna, overconfident/arrogant EMH, flower-loving Kes, decisive Janeway, supportive Chakotay, etc:

And who is Mr.Good-looking here? The best-looking guy in the galaxy, of course, More importantly, the guy who turns out to know a lot more about piloting the ship than quantum mechanics:

TIME AND AGAIN was cute, I thought. I mean, our heroes are still at the beginning of their journey, they don't even know each other and already they find themselves in challenging situations. Time travel, as we know from a later episode (YEAR OF HELL, I think) is something Janeway has always wanted avoid but has never managed. I quite like the idea that they are only shifted one day into the past - this is a good "practice ground" for them before having to tackle situations in which they will be centuries away from their own present.
And of course, a lot of people criticize the costumes. To me, they seem all right: very colourful, very unusual. This is a big galaxy, why should everyone follow Earth's fashions:

This episode was an excellent introduction for the Vidiians - Janeway shines at the end. Her determination to to everything for preventing the Vidiiians from collecting her crew's organs was spot-on. A very nice performance.
I also like the idea that the first signs of Neelix's jealousy are starting to manifest themselves - these will later be followed up on.
If there was something I didn't like about these earlier episodes, it was Kes's wigs. Mercifully they changed later. Here they seemed to be so .. meh:

Oh, I love this episode (surprise, surprise, I love everything VOY except FURY). I think this is the very first episode in which what we could call "typical Voyager humour" is shown for the first time. The Doctor especially but everyone else as well. Janeway's line to Neelix "That's Starfleet for get-out" is a classic one and of course "There's coffee in that nebula" is by far the most famous quotation in Voyager, maybe in the entire ST franchise. I like how they started to show Chakotay's spirituality and the introduction of Chez Sandrine's was spot-on. Do you guys remember when Janeway says: "Commader Chakotay, your stick ..."? I crack up every time I hear it.

Apologies for insufficient gushing. The show is essentially new to me as I didn't watch it when it aired and haven't taken the time to watch it since. I'll take my watch through elsewhere.

 

[Thomas Eugene]

Also, something I forgot to mention, I loved Paris's line "does the phrase 'to be continued' mean anything to you?" I wonder if that was a dig at the fact that Voyager didn't have a TBC to end season four.

What does TBC mean?

Yes they did mainly occur after eternal tide yell me if you do read them!

Good. I'll just do that: yell!
There's a chance I might continue with the realunch books in the autumn - we shall see what mood I'm going to be in in rainy autumn ...

Drone

What an emotional episode this was. We're in the 5th season and I still don't think Voyager has ruined the Borg. In fact, that whole statement feels, overstated. Of course we're going to get Borg themes because Voyager's most interesting character was a Borg. Anyway, that's more general, and I should discuss Drone. This is a great episode, showing the student becoming the teacher and I loved the interplay between Seven and One. We see One learn and grow, leading up to believing the only way to save the crew is to sacrifice himself. That's a very poignant scene and Seven's reaction is sad. The character development of One in this episode deserved that reaction.

Our Super Borg was played by the Nazi guy from THE KILLING GAME, did you notice that? In any case, this was an excellent episode, except for the fact that the poor creature decided to kill himself at the end.
I know, I know ... if they'd kept him, Voyager probably would have gone home in two weeks or so and the Federation could have defeated the Borg, the Dominium and whoever else in one more month. His powers were highly developed and were developing day by day so his end was necessary. Still, if he had to die, they could have found a better way than suicide. I found that strange.
However, there was lots of humour, as always, on this episode and although Voyager shines when it comes to humour, it's not very typical in borg-centered episodes. Love it when the Dotors says "I see you've got your mother's sense of humour." A hilarious scene.
We've already discussed this but I must mention again: I don't think the borg were overused. Actually, I could have enjoyed a lot more borg-centered episodes. I was kind of hoping that this would happen in the relaunch books ... But I even have had to give up on that seeing how the entire Collective has been done away with ...
So no books with the Hirogen ... no chance of a good borg-based story ... where's Voyager, I ask again. Lost in the writing, it seems.
Oh, BTW, can anyone explain that scene at the beginning of DRONE? Is Seven practising smiling or what? And for what reason? She had this huge, natural smile on her face in HOPE AND FEAR ... why does she need practice?

Extreme Risk is a frustrating episode for me. I LOVE the Delta Flyer (see my avatar but B'Elanna's story comes close to making me angry. I LIKE that they highlight depression and self-harm and I think Dawson and Beltran do a good job (and it's a good thing it was Chakotay that helped her as they had a shared history with the Maquis) but the ending where she is sitting there smiling at her pancakes is just so unsatisfying to me. Makes me want to throw things. Severe clinical depression doesn't just go away like that. I don't know where Hux is these days but this episode would always set him off on a rant. So I liked it...up to a point.

Well I guess, most people who suffer from clinical depression do so partly because their surroundings are not very supportive. But on Voyager you have friends ... hell you even have a much better family than a lot of real-life families. And Chakotay promised B'Elanna that they'd find a solution together. He also said it would take time. And just because B'Elanna smiles at the end, it doesn't necessarily mean that the problem has been sorted out. But at least the first step has been taken. Also, perhaps the most depressed person smiles when a memory of a person who they loved as a child is suddenly brought back by a smell, a taste, a certain type of food. To me that was a beautiful ending, and it didn't necessarily indicate that the problem had gone. It just showed that B'Elanna was willing to take the first step towards the solution of the problem - something that people suffering from depression in real life are often not willing to.

In the Flesh

I liked this episode, but man is it frustrating. This is representative of Star Trek Ideals, to make peace by diplomatic means and on that end the episode really works. I also loved seeing Kate Vernon (Ellen Tigh in BSG) here and this is what Unforgettable should have been, minus the 8472 stuff and all.

Why I think the episode was frustrating was because I feel it is incomplete. 8472 kinda got Neutered here, going from "We will purge the Galaxy of ALL life" to "We were just defending ourselves". We never find out the real reason why 8472 almost killed Harry Kim (Another thing that wasn't even brought up) and we never found out what they truely were called. I almost feel like this episode could have been a 90 minute show, so at least we can see something of a finality. Of course I'm also speaking as someone who has seen the entire series a few times but doesn't remember if we ever see 8472 again. I know we don't see them in Season 7. I don't think we see them in Season 6 either.

Still, it was a decent episode with a very Star Trek ideal. I just wish more would have gone into it.

To me this episode made perfect sense. When 8472 first invaded the galaxy, all they knew was the borg. They are a blight to our galaxy - I find it natural they wanted to purge the galaxy, thinking probably that all of the Milky Way was either borg or of similar species to the borg. After all, the borg are made up of the most different species, the borg started the attack, species 8472 did not have the time to analyze the situation any further. They just saw all these Milky Way species in the form of a destructive power - time to eradicate them, especially that it turns out they (=8472) are the stronger ones.
Enter Voyager. Humans. Although humans are part of the borg collective, it seems they exist separately from the collective as well. But when 8472 is first confronted with them, it seems they are the allies of the borg. Even worse, they have a weapon that might destroy them entirely. Conclusion: the humans are even more dangerous than the borg. A false conclusion, of course, but understandable from their point of view. So humans need to be eradicated first. They are the bigger danger. But it seems their HQ is at the other end of the galaxy. So a spy mission is needed.
But then, enter Voyager again. This time, without the borg. This time, their leader behaves in a different way. She seems to want a genuinely diplomatic solution. She even lets down Voyager's shields for them. Perhaps time to reconsider?
I don't think they are neutered. They were made to see reason by Janeway.

 

[tomalak301]

What does TBC mean?

To Be Continued.

 

[stardream]

The only time I can think of when the Hirogen have been mentioned in one of the novels is in a couple of chapters in the Destiny Trilogy and those aren't Voyager books (although characters from Voyager do make appearances). The Enterprise is faced with trying to find a conduit the Borg are using and wind up in one that leads to the Delta Quadrant. They are boarded by the Hirogen and battle ensues. It is as I said a trilogy and very good but I don't know if you would want to read the whole thing for a couple of fight scenes.

I liked the Cloud because it is an ensemble episode and those are my favorite. This was, however, one of those episodes where I mute Neelix's scenes. I'm afraid he does annoy me in that one that it does tell us that he is not really 'part of the crew' yet and doesn't understand what Janeway is trying to do. If they didn't stop to investigate things they would wind up like the crew of the Equinox.

Back to Extreme Risk, I agree that deciding to deal with depression does have to start somewhere but we never hear about it again. I know Voyager isn't big on continuity and I acccept that but if we had further scenes of her in another episode perhaps talking to the Doctor about it or getting shots or some kind of treatment for it...then it might have gone down a bit better with me because it would be more realistic. To me the episode can lead to the false impression that someone can just 'snap out of it' and it's a bit more complicated than that.

 

[Thomas Eugene]

Apologies for insufficient gushing. The show is essentially new to me as I didn't watch it when it aired and haven't taken the time to watch it since. I'll take my watch through elsewhere.

I didn't mean to alienate you, in fact my intentions were just the opposite.
I'm sorry if you didn't like what I'd written or found it offensive in any way.

 

[stardream]

This really isn't a 'gush' thread. If you notice some of our other posts we point out what some of us believe to be shortcomings.