Rewatching TWOK....

[Karzak]

Oh, yeah. I don't agree with you so obviously I don't know what it's about.

I didn't say that. I said that Tomalak wrote an excellent analysis that pretty much nails what Wrath of Khan is about... which he wrote in contradiction of whatever your interpretation of the film was. You literally did not understand the point of Wrath of Khan. Or, at the very least, you missed one of the crucial elements behind what story it was trying to tell. That's not an attack, that's not you "disagreeing" with us, it's an observation based on what you wrote.

All STID proves is that JJ and his writers affirmed themselves as the hacks they showed themselves to be in ST09.

And if you "fans" don't like reading that then too bad. Push the ignore button.

And we're the ones who can't handle being disagreed with?

 

[BillJ]

Oh, yeah. I don't agree with you so obviously I don't know what it's about.

You guys are fucking hilarious...as always.

All STID proves is that JJ and his writers affirmed themselves as the hacks they showed themselves to be in ST09.

And if you "fans" don't like reading that then too bad. Push the ignore button.

It is a lot more fun to watch you make foolish proclamations.

 

[BK613]

On topic:
My annoyances with TWOK:
-Plot conveniences:
Khan "surprising" Terrel and Chekov because SF can't count.
Khan relentlessly pursuing Kirk, except when Kirk needs a break.
-Deus ex machina:
The Prefix code.
The Mutara nebula.

--
On STID:
While I generally liked ST09, I feel that STID does leech too much off the content of TWOK. Revisiting the Khan character should have been an original experience, not a regurgitation of the iconic scenes of TWOK. See Romero's Joker vs Nicholson' Joker vs Ledger's Joker for the way to accomplish this.
What would have been ballsy would been to turn audiences expectations on their heads and make this Khan more protagonist than antagonist.
IMO.

Watching STID at home:
"That's silly; can't they write their own stuff?" - My (non-Trekkie) wife's response to STID's death scene, right before she picked up her Kindle and went back to reading her book.

 

[beamMe]

Oh, yeah. I don't agree with you so obviously I don't know what it's about.

You guys are fucking hilarious...as always.

All STID proves is that JJ and his writers affirmed themselves as the hacks they showed themselves to be in ST09.

And if you "fans" don't like reading that then too bad. Push the ignore button.

Wait, did... did you just throw me out of the fandom...

 

[fireproof78]

On topic:
My annoyances with TWOK:
-Plot conveniences:
Khan "surprising" Terrel and Chekov because SF can't count.
Khan relentlessly pursuing Kirk, except when Kirk needs a break.
-Deus ex machina:
The Prefix code.
The Mutara nebula.

--
On STID:
While I generally liked ST09, I feel that STID does leech too much off the content of TWOK. Revisiting the Khan character should have been an original experience, not a regurgitation of the iconic scenes of TWOK. See Romero's Joker vs Nicholson' Joker vs Ledger's Joker for the way to accomplish this.
What would have been ballsy would been to turn audiences expectations on their heads and make this Khan more protagonist than antagonist.
IMO.

Watching STID at home:
"That's silly; can't they write their own stuff?" - My (non-Trekkie) wife's response to STID's death scene, right before she picked up her Kindle and went back to reading her book.

On TWOK:

I generally agree. Khan's single-minded purpose comes off as a bit too convenient some times for the timing of the plot. I didn't really mention plot conveniences in my initial post because there are just way too many for me to list out and that would be a boring read.

On STID:

Since the topic came up, taking one scene and the villain from TWOK does not make it a rip-off. The underlying themes, and character arcs are different in each film, and my effort is to approach each film as its own merits.

The weight of the scene is carried by Kirk's character and what his choices meant to him, not his words.

That's just me though. I personally never cared for TWOK and could not understand the huge amounts of praise heaped on it until recently, and still don't find it that enjoyable in the pantheon of Trek films.

 

[Trekkin]

Oh, yeah. I don't agree with you so obviously I don't know what it's about.

You guys are fucking hilarious...as always.

All STID proves is that JJ and his writers affirmed themselves as the hacks they showed themselves to be in ST09.

And if you "fans" don't like reading that then too bad. Push the ignore button.

Wait, did... did you just throw me out of the fandom...

No.

See, you were never part of the fandom, you're part of the "fandom." Those are obviously totally different things.



I can't speak for others, but I think part of what helps me get past TWOK's flaws is the cast and the direction. Everyone was pretty much on their A-game. They sell the things that otherwise would pull me up short.

But, yes - script flaws are only part of a movie. Shawshank Redemption, The Lord of The Rings, and Singin' In the Rain tend to alternate between being my favourite movies of all time, and they're hardly watertight scripts. Probably better than TWOK, but not without flaws.

 

[BK613]

I didn't really mention plot conveniences in my initial post because there are just way too many for me to list out and that would be a boring read.

Yea, I was giving examples rather than a complete list.

I personally never cared for TWOK and could not understand the huge amounts of praise heaped on it until recently, and still don't find it that enjoyable in the pantheon of Trek films.

One thing that annoyed me about TWOK was the way it sorta throws the following under the bus:

SPOCK: It would be interesting, Captain, to return to that world in a hundred years and to learn what crop has sprung from the seed you planted today.
KIRK: Yes, Mister Spock, it would indeed.

and

The human adventure is just beginning...

 

[Trekkin]

Didn't TNG sorta pay lip-service to that, with Q's implication that we were going to eventually end up non-physical beings?

 

[BeatleJWOL]

One thing that annoyed me about TWOK was the way it sorta throws the following under the bus:

The human adventure is just beginning...

Works great as a microcosm for Trek, or at least how people think of Trek.

They tried something science-fictiony, talky and thinky, didn't work. Next movie: must have action and a villain, clearly.

 

[Warped9]

One thing that annoyed me about TWOK was the way it sorta throws the following under the bus:

The human adventure is just beginning...

Works great as a microcosm for Trek, or at least how people think of Trek.

They tried something science-fictiony, talky and thinky, didn't work. Next movie: must have action and a villain, clearly.

It didn't work as executed. Or more specifically it didn't work completely,. TMP was hardly a total failure--it was more of a near miss--and it's not hard to see where it could have been fixed.

The issue is that most people have come to accept that if it isn't action oriented with yet another baddie to be defeated then it'll be boring.

 

[fireproof78]

One thing that annoyed me about TWOK was the way it sorta throws the following under the bus:

Works great as a microcosm for Trek, or at least how people think of Trek.

They tried something science-fictiony, talky and thinky, didn't work. Next movie: must have action and a villain, clearly.

It didn't work as executed. Or more specifically it didn't work completely,. TMP was hardly a total failure--it was more of a near miss--and it's not hard to see where it could have been fixed.

The issue is that most people have come to accept that if it isn't action oriented with yet another baddie to be defeated then it'll be boring.

I would take TMP as an episode of TOS. I struggle with it as a feature length film.

You can balance action with talking and introspection in a meaningful way. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[BillJ]

I would take TMP as an episode of TOS. I struggle with it as a feature length film.

You've got it then. Just watch "The Changeling"!

 

[Karzak]

One thing that annoyed me about TWOK was the way it sorta throws the following under the bus:

Works great as a microcosm for Trek, or at least how people think of Trek.

They tried something science-fictiony, talky and thinky, didn't work. Next movie: must have action and a villain, clearly.

It didn't work as executed. Or more specifically it didn't work completely,. TMP was hardly a total failure--it was more of a near miss--and it's not hard to see where it could have been fixed.

The issue is that most people have come to accept that if it isn't action oriented with yet another baddie to be defeated then it'll be boring.

Really? Who are these "most people" and how do you know them? Or is it that you fervently hold to this perspective and have found that there are (many) others who disagree with you, so rather than accept outside opinions as perfectly valid, you categorize them as just not having as refined or as sophisticated taste as you?

 

[Warped9]

Works great as a microcosm for Trek, or at least how people think of Trek.

They tried something science-fictiony, talky and thinky, didn't work. Next movie: must have action and a villain, clearly.

It didn't work as executed. Or more specifically it didn't work completely,. TMP was hardly a total failure--it was more of a near miss--and it's not hard to see where it could have been fixed.

The issue is that most people have come to accept that if it isn't action oriented with yet another baddie to be defeated then it'll be boring.

Really? Who are these "most people" and how do you know them? Or is it that you fervently hold to this perspective and have found that there are (many) others who disagree with you, so rather than accept outside opinions as perfectly valid, you categorize them as just not having as refined or as sophisticate taste as you?

Would it make you feel better if I said "many" rather "most?"

And if you read enough casual remarks online you certainly can get the impression that "many" people are easily bored without sufficient action.

 

[Karzak]

Would it make you feel better if I said "many" rather "most?"

Making broad generalizations from a limited and narrow perspective rarely hold much water in my opinion. I simply do not see how you can seriously claim to speak for the actual reactions of the masses when your own experience (by and large, anyway) has been with people who disagree with your narrow view on Star Trek.

 

[BillJ]

Really? Who are these "most people" and how do you know them? Or is it that you fervently hold to this perspective and have found that there are (many) others who disagree with you, so rather than accept outside opinions as perfectly valid, you categorize them as just not having as refined or as sophisticated taste as you?

I can't speak for anyone else, but in my world there's room for both The Motion Picture and The Wrath of Khan. Just like there's room for 2001: A Space Odyssey and Predator.

I can only watch one at a time anyway.

 

[OpenMaw]

Just like there's room for 2001: A Space Odyssey and Predator.

You've been talking with Shane Black haven't you?

There goes the surprise. 2001 vs Predator = Predator 4.

 

[Trekkin]

If my DVD shelf has room for both the Remastered Bluray of Metropolis AND 'Friday The 13Th: The Complete Collection (with 3D Glasses!)', then the rest of the world should have more than ample space.

We've already seen an attempt at 2001 + Alien. It's only fair that Predator gets a turn.

I know an easy way to improve TMP - cut the endless 'Oooooh, look at the pretty SFX' sequences in half. 2001's only worked because plot important shit was still going on during them.

Oh, and if the Probe was going to be the movies HAL and keep the tension up in the middle act, then they should have made her actually threatening or interesting. More 'I'm sorry, I cannot do that Dave' and 'Daisy, Daisy....', with less 'Will...' and makeovers.

In my individual opinion.

 

[eyeresist]

Oh, and if the Probe was going to be the movie's HAL and keep the tension up in the middle act, then they should have made her actually threatening or interesting. More 'I'm sorry, I cannot do that Dave' and 'Daisy, Daisy....', with less 'Will...' and makeovers.

And suddenly I realise a connection between TMP and INS - terrible head-dresses. Arguably Picard came off worse.

 

[Trekkin]

I'm having a sudden urge to make that Picard image my avatar.

EDIT: I fought the urge, and the urge won.