Rewatching TWOK....

[Warped9]

I looked up comments regarding TWOK from three years ago.

Star Trek II – The Wrath Of Khan (1982) ***

A genetic superman seeks revenge against Admiral James Kirk.

The real strength of this film is the acting and making the best of the words written for the characters. All the major characters are decent in this and it’s one of Shatner’s best performances (since he’s also done some damn fine work in TOS). It also can’t be denied this film has good pacing and a good dose of energy. It’s the pacing, the performances and some nice visuals that make much of this film work.

But from early on I get one overriding feeling from this film: it feels like they really want you to forget TMP ever happened. There are certainly no references, even indirect ones, to previous events. But there is a pervasive sense of change. Whatever could be changed from TMP was changed. The edict seems to be not that TMP missed a bit in a few places, but that it was a total bust, which it certainly was not. Sometimes change is good and it works, and sometimes it doesn't.

It starts out promisingly with a forceful version of the familiar Star Trek fanfare and then launches into a very nice opening score…befitting a seafaring adventure. Nice bit of music, but it doesn’t convey the idea of “strange new worlds “or “where no man has gone before.” It sounds more like Captain Blood, The Buccaneer, Horatio Hornblower or maybe even Master And Commander. Maybe it would work for an adaptation of some military SF such as Honor Harrington, but it’s not Star Trek.

TMP had a terrific opening sequence with three incredible Klingon ships taking on some alien unknown and getting wiped out in the process. TWOK’s opening scene is...cadets in a training simulation. The whole thing is WTF! as the ship is apparently disabled by one lousy Klingon torpedo that also manages to kill the entire senior staff. Funny, I remember the TOS Enterprise being able to take all kinds of punishment as well as the TMP refit able to withstand a volley from Vger that had already destroyed three Klingon ships. (Of course this is such a cool idea they’ll repeat it in Generations to wreck the Enterprise D).

We next get some decent character moments between Kirk, Spock and McCoy and they’re soon laying it on thick that Kirk is having midlife crises of sorts. He apparently feels old when he’s probably no more than about fifty. Fifty today isn’t old (unless you’re not well) and it shouldn’t even be an issue in the twenty-third century. Hell, Picard will be gallivanting around on the E-D and he could have been pushing sixty.

But the real thing that’s bugging my ass this early in the film is the idea of the Enterprise as a training vessel. Putting clues together from within the film the refit E isn’t more than about ten years old since its refitting in TMP. But then, of course, they’re ignoring everything from TMP. Whereas TMP left us with the promise of new adventures on the final frontier TWOK has everyone and everything just about ready to retire and be scrapped. Yep, a real positive way to start out the story.

Some people complained about the TMP uniforms, and while I can’t agree that they’re bad I can agree a bit more colour and perhaps a crisper design would have been welcomed. TWOK’s answer is to give us Buckingham Palace. Again they’re a design that could work in some other SF property, but it’s totally inconsistent with the general look that had already been established for Starfleet personnel: comfortable everyday services wear. Certainly not retro dress outfits. Again it’s not Star Trek.

At this point what strikes me is that we seem to be seeing a version of Star Trek as filtered through someone’s eyes perhaps not familiar with what had come before and they’re convinced Star Trek has to be something else to be accepted. Hello??? We’re here because Star Trek was successful being what it is and not something else. This is akin to Tim Burton making a couple of movies that are unmistakably his but they also just happen to have Batman in them. This is someone’s idea of a seafaring adventure dressed as sci-fi that just happens to have Kirk, Spock and the Enterprise in it.

The first good thing I get to see in this picture is the starship Reliant. Finally, after decades of waiting, we get to see another Starfleet starship that isn’t identical to the Enterprise and it’s to be a good-looking design at that. The other neat thing is the nice looking Regula One station. The next scenes revealing Khan and the creepy Ceti eels are accompanied by nicely eerie music. It’s a scene that can make your skin crawl. But I am also confused: where did all those kids come from? Khan’s followers were a mixed bag of races all approximately the same age as him. Now they’re all blond California surfer dudes and beach bunnies who’ve had a bad hair day at the mall. And despite being reduced to a bare level existence Khan has still somehow managed to get plastic surgery to enhance his chest. Hoookay… BTW I’m not bothered by Khan recognizing Chekov because just because we hadn’t seen him yet in TOS’ first season it doesn’t mean he couldn’t have been aboard where Khan could have run into him.

Some other little details: what is with all the CRT monitors? In TOS we had futuristic looking flat panel displays for viewscreens, something that certainly would be futuristic in 1982. Hell, in the real world we didn’t get flat panel displays until the early 2000s. But in TWOK tube screens are everywhere. Yet another bit of retro tech.

This film is also something of a deconstruction of what had been established in TOS. Kirk has a son he wasn’t allowed to see and the idea that Kirk has never faced death. What? Kirk has faced death numerous times. He’s faced the prospect of his own death, the death of his closest friends as well as the death of numerous personnel under his command. This is just ridiculous revisionism.

Why is the Enterprise relegated to a training vessel? Why doesn’t the Reliant know what planet they’re orbiting? Why is a nebula depicted like a fog bank when in actuality if you were in a nebula you probably wouldn’t know it? How can a bunch of throwbacks, no matter how smart, able to overcome an entire ship’s complement and then know how to run the ship without any help? They apparently needed help to run the Enterprise in TOS. Why are two highly advanced starships wallowing around like 17th century galleons?

Because Harve Bennet and Nicholas Meyer wanted to do a submarine warfare story that just happened to be some Star Trek in it and yet looks like they never bothered to watch something like TOS’ “Balance Of Terror” or “The Doomsday Machine” or “The Ultimate Computer” or even “Elaan Of Troyius.” “Balance Of Terror” adapted a submarine combat story (“The Enemy Below”) and made it work as science fiction. Bennett and Meyer just thought they’d do the reverse. Worse yet they tried to make Star Trek like an old seafaring tale and throw away as much of the SF element as possible.

One could argue that Robert Wise might have been trying to make too much of a science fiction film out of Star Trek (which is a ridiculous charge when you think about it), but Nicholas Meyer was obviously trying to make Star Trek into as close to 17th century naval warfare as he could get away with. Even as I was trying to enjoy the performances and brisk pacing I kept getting jarred out of it by things that felt really out of place in what should have been a good Star Trek film.

TMP is a really smart film that needed a little more drama and passion. TWOK is an energetic film that is unfortunately dumb as a brick. And so it’s really going to come down to how much you can forgive to be entertained. The only way I can really accept this is as some form of alternate universe or parallel timeline where some characters and references are familiar, but the rest has changed.

The death of Spock is very moving, and candidly if Trek had ended it then and there the TOS era would have had an appropriate sense of finality. Spock’s death was a fitting one---he died saving his friends and shipmates---unlike Kirk’s death in GEN which feels utterly meaningless. Kirk’s death later on is moving because it’s heartbreaking to say goodbye to one of the most cherished and iconic characters of television and film, but his death in context of the story is pointless.

So my final assessment is that while I like the numerous good character moments as well as the good performances and energetic pacing I really dislike the story it’s all founded on, the backstory and everything that plays into it. I can enjoy the film to some extent, but it leaves some unappealing aftertaste.

The death of Spock was actually a gutsy move no matter what I think of the story itself. If Nimoy had chosen to not return to the Star Trek fold as Spock his death would have retained a real poignancy. His absence would have resonated throughout any future Trek feature films even if a new character (Saavik?) managed to fit in with the rest of the original cast. But since Nimoy had a change of heart and did return Spock's resurrection rather undermines the poignancy of his death in TWOK.

Even the title of the following film, The Search For Spock, pretty much gives away the whole point of the third film. It might have been nice if they could have come up with a title that wouldn't have spelled it out so blatantly before you actually sat down in the theatre.


Some years ago I wrote a rewrite outline for TWOK. I wish I knew what happened to it. Essentially I retained all the major elements present in the existing story, but tweaked it to fix the things the really bugged me. And assuming Spock still dies at the end then it could still work.

 

[Richard Baker]

but when I'm watching live-action science fiction I have a greater expectation.

Why? You watched TOS so you should know better than anyone about having greater expectations for Star Trek based plot/entertainment value.


As for Mister Scott showing up on the bridge with his nephew, could it be some of the turbolifts were out due to the battle damage and the fastest way was via the other lift on the bridge. He comes out one, we get a shocking display (and a cut), he heads for the other lift to get his nephew to Sickbay, where we see him next. If there was anyone of the ship that would know the fastest way somewhere it be Mr. Scott.

Best 'in universe' explanation I have heard of for this was that in emergency/battle conditions the Bridge has automatic over ride on all turbolifts. The first battle damaged the turbolift network (Spock remarked they were still inoperative in places when Kirk returned from Genesis) and the system over-road the turbolift car commands and brought it to the bridge instead. Scotty was not showing people his wounded nephew, he was on the way to the Sickbay and the turbolift brought him there instead.

 

[Trekkin]

Wouldn't that override be a bit dangerous if they were trying to evacuate?

 

[Pauln6]

I read the script for In Thy Image recently and I was surprised at how much more TOS-like the dialogue sounded, including more humour. TMP's scope with a bit more of that dialogue would have made a more rounded movie. Some shoulder pads and some decent boots might have been all it would have taken to make me love the TMP uniforms more. I can live without the bell-bottoms.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

No totally-not-a-nebula

explain

 

[Kemaiku]

A nebula is so sparse in nature that you would not "see" them while inside one, sensors would tell you, but the only reason we see them as we do, is being able to see the entire formation from lightyears away.

The Mutara "nebula" makes even less sense as one with the weird effects from it, and the fact normal space can be seen so often that it looks like it's rather tiny.

They could have called it the Mutara effect similar to the strangely small and green "quasar" in the Galileo Seven. Neither are technically what they call them, so making them out to be new formations of matter or unique entirely would be better.

Anyway, TWoK has gone down in my estimations over the years, with each new rewatch of it. Agreement on basically most of the criticisms mentioned so far.

The forced regression of Starfleet to a Nelson era themed organisation complete with such an ugly colour palette and overly stuffy uniforms (some of the worst for it).

The awkard and clunky props, cost saving measures noticeable in nearly every scene, the beginning of the "senile" cast plotline that would be hammered home for the rest of the TOS era.

The sheer imcompetance of not only the Enterprise crew but the Reliant crew as well, suspention of disbelief is stretched a little more now looking back on it than some of the others.

I agree the Reliant is one of the better ships designed in the movies. The engineering section seems to have been thought out first, then the varuous Enterprise portions worked into that new housing, is probably the opposite of how the kitbashing went on in the later part of the franchise.

The new addition being one of the largest parts of the ship and stands out throughout the movie, with the use of particular camera angles to emphasise her difference.

And it's one of the few times a smaller ship than the Enterprise has been so effectively intimidating, seeing Reliant creeping up on the Enterprise gives some genuine chills.

The score drops in quality when they try to overuse it for certain sequences, an old fashioned attempt at a jump scare once or twice. The rest, is quite good to great depending on the scene.

 

[beamMe]

A nebula is so sparse in nature that you would not "see" them while inside one, sensors would tell you, but the only reason we see them as we do, is being able to see the entire formation from lightyears away.

The Mutara "nebula" makes even less sense as one with the weird effects from it, and the fact normal space can be seen so often that it looks like it's rather tiny.

They could have called it the Mutara effect similar to the strangely small and green "quasar" in the Galileo Seven. Neither are technically what they call them, so making them out to be new formations of matter or unique entirely would be better.

Anyway, TWoK has gone down in my estimations over the years, with each new rewatch of it. Agreement on basically most of the criticisms mentioned so far.

The forced regression of Starfleet to a Nelson era themed organisation complete with such an ugly colour palette and overly stuffy uniforms (some of the worst for it).

The awkard and clunky props, cost saving measures noticeable in nearly every scene, the beginning of the "senile" cast plotline that would be hammered home for the rest of the TOS era.

The sheer imcompetance of not only the Enterprise crew but the Reliant crew as well, suspention of disbelief is stretched a little more now looking back on it than some of the others.

I agree the Reliant is one of the better ships designed in the movies. The engineering section seems to have been thought out first, then the varuous Enterprise portions worked into that new housing, is probably the opposite of how the kitbashing went on in the later part of the franchise.

The new addition being one of the largest parts of the ship and stands out throughout the movie, with the use of particular camera angles to emphasise her difference.

And it's one of the few times a smaller ship than the Enterprise has been so effectively intimidating, seeing Reliant creeping up on the Enterprise gives some genuine chills.

The score drops in quality when they try to overuse it for certain sequences, an old fashioned attempt at a jump scare once or twice. The rest, is quite good to great depending on the scene.

That's the problem with repeat-views: the flaws of a movie become more magnified with each new viewing.
And we become accustomed to the way films are made and presented today; by comparison TWOK is really slow and its story is much simpler than, say, STID.
But it's still a good film, when you take into account that it is over 30 years old.

 

[Kemaiku]

Oh I still like it, and will still watch it. And I would still put it above the next three films in the series.

 

[beamMe]

Oh I still like it, and will still watch it. And I would still put it above the next three films in the series.

Oh, definitely. Although TVH is a close call.

 

[Tomalak]

Any one of these instances (and there are more) could be excused on its own, but when they start to pile up they undermine the whole story as a whole.

I find it interesting that for you, nitpicking the plot undermines the whole film. I've read through your posts, and apart from lip-service to "character moments", you barely even address what the film is actually about.

Every time I see it, I'm rewarded by the themes, which are beautifully woven throughout the film. It's about middle-age. It's about Kirk questioning his usefulness and relevance in the universe. He begins the film in a state of abject depression - he hates his job, he spends the evenings alone in his dark apartment, surrounded by antiques, with a bottle close by.

By the end of the film, he's rejuvenated. He says he feels young, he has gained a son, and found a sense of purpose. The terrible cost was not just the death of his best friend, but also hundreds of other lives between the Enterprise, Reliant, Khan's people, and the Regula One staff. The sequel takes him on an even darker course, as we see that rejuvenation was only fleeting. With David and Carol gone, he's again alone, lapsed into even deeper depression, and then proceeds to sacrifice everything to get his friend back - his ship, his son; yet more lives - only then does he genuinely seem to regain that old Kirk swagger, which is frankly horrifying.

Death has always been an integral part of Kirk's character right back to the TV show. His whole life has been one death or mass-killing after another, from Kodos, to the Farragut, Gary Mitchell, Miramanee, countless Red Shirts, his brother, his son and Edith Keeler. Depression has been a constant companion too - he had bouts in 'Balance of Terror', 'Obsession' and also TMP, and later TUC has he contemplates retirement. Indeed, it's an integral part of the character right back to the original series bible for Robert April: "A colorfully complex personality, he is capable of action and decision that can verge on the heroic – and at the same time lives a continual battle with self-doubt and the loneliness of command."

I agree with you that it's one of Shatner's best performances, but it's also one of the best explorations of Kirk's character. There's that dichotomy between needing danger and action to feel vital and thrive, and the trauma those events provoke. But way back in 'The Enemy Within', we know he'd just waste away with the easy, simple life. It's the almost psychopathic conflict at the heart of the character, which no one really has the guts to put to him, save General Chang. And Kirk proves ultimately that he can overcome that side of himself.

The film cleverly uses Saavik and David to question and scrutinise Kirk, and often he's found wanting. Carol is a brilliant creation - she only has a small role in the film, and her screen time with Shatner is miniscule, but Bibi Besch is instantly believable as someone Kirk could be intoxicated by, but never stay with for the long term.

Sure, people like this film because it's got some cool battles, it's got a scenery-chewing villain, and huge cult-camp cachet. The "Khaaaaaaaaaaaan" effect. We can all pick at certain aspects of plot logic or narrative. But it stands the test of time because at its heart it's about the characters - the same characters that had appealed in the original show. Perhaps it doesn't work for you, but it connects with me on an emotional level far more than TMP manages.

[To go off on a tangent, I think the problem with STID was not that it copied too much from TWOK (it really doesn't, except for the ill-judged homage death scene), but that it failed to give the characters a good narrative. Kirk and Spock essentially regresses to the start of the previous film, having apparently learnt nothing.]

 

[BillJ]

Very good analysis of the emotional side of The Wrath of Khan.

...but that it failed to give the characters a good narrative. Kirk and Spock essentially regresses to the start of the previous film, having apparently learnt nothing.]

I tend to think Kirk's regression is intentional as he got a starship command "by doing things his way". That can be very intoxicating for a young man. Spock, on the other hand, is in a very dark place at the beginning of Into Darkness.

By the end of the film, we have a Kirk that is learning to trust his people and a Spock that realizes that he wants to live and is beginning to understand friendship. YMMV.

 

[Karzak]

Any one of these instances (and there are more) could be excused on its own, but when they start to pile up they undermine the whole story as a whole.

I find it interesting that for you, nitpicking the plot undermines the whole film. I've read through your posts, and apart from lip-service to "character moments", you barely even address what the film is actually about.

Every time I see it, I'm rewarded by the themes, which are beautifully woven throughout the film. It's about middle-age. It's about Kirk questioning his usefulness and relevance in the universe. He begins the film in a state of abject depression - he hates his job, he spends the evenings alone in his dark apartment, surrounded by antiques, with a bottle close by.

By the end of the film, he's rejuvenated. He says he feels young, he has gained a son, and found a sense of purpose. The terrible cost was not just the death of his best friend, but also hundreds of other lives between the Enterprise, Reliant, Khan's people, and the Regula One staff. The sequel takes him on an even darker course, as we see that rejuvenation was only fleeting. With David and Carol gone, he's again alone, lapsed into even deeper depression, and then proceeds to sacrifice everything to get his friend back - his ship, his son; yet more lives - only then does he genuinely seem to regain that old Kirk swagger, which is frankly horrifying.

Death has always been an integral part of Kirk's character right back to the TV show. His whole life has been one death or mass-killing after another, from Kodos, to the Farragut, Gary Mitchell, Miramanee, countless Red Shirts, his brother, his son and Edith Keeler. Depression has been a constant companion too - he had bouts in 'Balance of Terror', 'Obsession' and also TMP, and later TUC has he contemplates retirement. Indeed, it's an integral part of the character right back to the original series bible for Robert April: "A colorfully complex personality, he is capable of action and decision that can verge on the heroic – and at the same time lives a continual battle with self-doubt and the loneliness of command."

I agree with you that it's one of Shatner's best performances, but it's also one of the best explorations of Kirk's character. There's that dichotomy between needing danger and action to feel vital and thrive, and the trauma those events provoke. But way back in 'The Enemy Within', we know he'd just waste away with the easy, simple life. It's the almost psychopathic conflict at the heart of the character, which no one really has the guts to put to him, save General Chang. And Kirk proves ultimately that he can overcome that side of himself.

The film cleverly uses Saavik and David to question and scrutinise Kirk, and often he's found wanting. Carol is a brilliant creation - she only has a small role in the film, and her screen time with Shatner is miniscule, but Bibi Besch is instantly believable as someone Kirk could be intoxicated by, but never stay with for the long term.

Sure, people like this film because it's got some cool battles, it's got a scenery-chewing villain, and huge cult-camp cachet. The "Khaaaaaaaaaaaan" effect. We can all pick at certain aspects of plot logic or narrative. But it stands the test of time because at its heart it's about the characters - the same characters that had appealed in the original show. Perhaps it doesn't work for you, but it connects with me on an emotional level far more than TMP manages.

[To go off on a tangent, I think the problem with STID was not that it copied too much from TWOK (it really doesn't, except for the ill-judged homage death scene), but that it failed to give the characters a good narrative. Kirk and Spock essentially regresses to the start of the previous film, having apparently learnt nothing.]

Quoting for truth. Brilliantly said, TOmalak!

 

[Pauln6]

Quoting for truth. Brilliantly said, TOmalak!

True dat. TWoK Kirk is flawed and we aren't expected to think that his flaws are fricking coooool. He's a much more relateable character and harking back to the themes from Balance of Terror, which is probably TOS at its finest, is an excellent comparison.

 

[fireproof78]

Quoting for truth. Brilliantly said, TOmalak!

True dat. TWoK Kirk is flawed and we aren't expected to think that his flaws are fricking coooool. He's a much more relateable character and harking back to the themes from Balance of Terror, which is probably TOS at its finest, is an excellent comparison.

I'm inclined to agree on this point. Kirk is a far more dynamic character in TWOK and goes through a lot of changes that are interesting, from a character point of view.

The rest of the film is mixed for me. I personally rate it higher on my Trek film list but that is due to the large amount of work that Meyer did i crafting the film, as well as some iconic scenes that are highly memorable. The theme of the film are

What I don't enjoy is the fact that Kirk is shown as being a bit out of his element, which I get is a story telling trope. But, its frustrating when we had that in TMP between him and Decker.

In contrast, I enjoyed Khan and his character but it became too one dimensional as the movie progressed. As much as I enjoy Montalban's performance, the overall character feels very limited by his revenge plot. In a way, almost like Indigo Montoya's reaction at the end of the film. Like, what motivates him past his revenge? And why does he just take Genesis? I know that Meyer pulled together about 8 drafts, so some holes are bound to pop up, but it just feels like the character's life after film was unrealized.

Finally, I am not a fa of body horror at all. The whole Ceti eel thing and its resolution unnerves me to the a point that I cannot enjoy that whole subplot. That and the plot depends on Terrel and Chekov submitting wholly to Khan as part of the process as well as the ability to completely take over the Reliant. Seriously, does no one question orders in Starfleet?

It is well put together, but has too many things to make it my favorite. However, I think that Meyer deserves a lot of credit in his accomplishment with this film.

The other logical problems are hit and miss. The whole "exploding planet" thing is random for random sake. Same thing with other bits.

 

[darkshadow0001]

The hollow redress in Into Darkness makes it clear that TWoK succeeds where it is easily possible to fail.

What does Star Trek Into Darkness have to do with this discussion?

Despite my criticisms of TWOK I do consider it rocket science compared to JJtrek. While TWOK has it share of logic flaws (and maybe then some) it's a much better crafted story to anything JJtrek has done. There isn't anywhere near the level of nonsensical elements that JJtrek is rife with.

It's also inescapable that JJ attempted to captilize on the popularity of TWOK and what many see as the best of the Trek films. STID really is a blatant ripoff of TWOK and it's widely acknowledged.

But to your point this discussion is primarily about TWOK

Well technically JJ's Trek wasn't supposed to be like the original Trek. That was the point, which I don't understand why people keep saying Into Darkness is a remake of TwOK. It's not, it's a completely different story which just happens to have similar characters.

 

[Warped9]

People keep saying it because it's patently obvious that JJ was trying to capitalize on TWOK's popularity. And he considered it sooo original to switch who gets killed and not waiting until the next film to bring them back. He even had to get the "Khaaaan!" bit in there even if it was screamed out by someone else.

It's all very well to say it's not the same story, but he reused so many pre-existing elements and merely rearranged them a bit that it's still unmistably a rip-off.

People can still enjoy the film if it works for them, but they needn't get miffed because someone else calls it what is.

 

[BillJ]

It's all very well to say it's not the same story, but he reused so many pre-existing elements and merely rearranged them a bit that it's still unmistably a rip-off.

And Star Trek fans should definitely know about ripping things off. Without Forbidden Planet, there'd be no Star Trek.

 

[Warped9]

A homage, tip-of-the-hat or being influenced by is not the same as a rip-off.

 

[Karzak]

People keep saying it because it's patently obvious that JJ was trying to capitalize on TWOK's popularity. And he considered it sooo original to switch who gets killed and not waiting until the next film to bring them back. He even had to get the "Khaaaan!" bit in there even if it was screamed out by someone else.

It's all very well to say it's not the same story, but he reused so many pre-existing elements and merely rearranged them a bit that it's still unmistably a rip-off.

People can still enjoy the film if it works for them, but they needn't get miffed because someone else calls it what is.

Likewise, just because you "calls it what is" does not omit you from being told others disagree with you.

A homage, tip-of-the-hat or being influenced by is not the same as a rip-off.

Into Darkness was as much of a tip-of-the-hat to and/or influenced by Wrath of Khan as TOS was to Forbidden Planet.

Then again, as Tomalak pointed out above with his excellent analysis of Wrath of Khan, you also don't really understand what that movie was about either, so I'm not sure why you are arguing about this.

 

[Warped9]

Oh, yeah. I don't agree with you so obviously I don't know what it's about.

You guys are fucking hilarious...as always.

All STID proves is that JJ and his writers affirmed themselves as the hacks they showed themselves to be in ST09.

And if you "fans" don't like reading that then too bad. Push the ignore button.