Rewatched TMP last night

[Pauln6]

Another thing I like about TMP was its ending. There was the sense that our heroes had returned where they belong and we were set to enjoy new adventures on the final frontier.

But, alas, Harve Bennet and Nicholas Meyer nixed all that to tear it all down and gives us the characters practically ready for retirement. The kind of adventures we had known would never come again until TNG. And, of course, that was with a completely different cast of characters.

The emotional resonance of TWoK is one of the things they did very well. I don't like to criticise that.

However, I do lament that they never really capitalised on the second 5-year mission. We had a lot of merchandise at the time but we've only had a few novels, and a few short-lived comic series. I think an animated series on TV would have been great fun. If they made one now I'd prefer it to be set during this era unlikely though that may be. Tweak the uniforms by all means but the ship looked great, the whole traditional crew was together, and we had plenty of alien crewmen to mix it up. I've done a couple of comic stories on youtube and they were great fun - I really must finish that story off!

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

It was even further afield from the original movie - the Sandman guns were more like phasers and often used on "stun", which was probably a 70s TV non-violence thing.

The Sandmen did use the gun for killing in the pilot. I think that was unavoidable, as a police unit running around stunning people is not too threatening.

I never saw the pilot, and I can't recall exactly why Logan was "running" - but I think that was changed up as well.

If memory serves, his TV motives were flimsy, other than just questioning the system. In the movie, the 30-year old life cut-off (or alleged renewal on Carousel) was sold via the life clocks in the palm. When the central computer accelerated Logan's to a 30-yr old (to support the ruse that he's a runner approaching Lastday), but did not promise to restore his years, or is silent on the question if anyone ever renewed, he decides to run.

The TV version removed the computer, replacing them with a hidden council of elders who maintain order, and promise Francis a spot on the council if he captures Logan & Jessica.

I actually recall it kind of being like the prime-time version of ArkII, a lot of driving around in post-apocalyptic Southern California and meeting/helping random people.

Heh, now I feel like trying to watch it tonight.

Ark II? You're not too far off. Just replace Rem with a talking chimpanzee named Adam....

 

[Galileo7]

It was even further afield from the original movie - the Sandman guns were more like phasers and often used on "stun", which was probably a 70s TV non-violence thing.

The Sandmen did use the gun for killing in the pilot. I think that was unavoidable, as a police unit running around stunning people is not too threatening.

I never saw the pilot, and I can't recall exactly why Logan was "running" - but I think that was changed up as well.

If memory serves, his TV motives were flimsy, other than just questioning the system. In the movie, the 30-year old life cut-off (or alleged renewal on Carousel) was sold via the life clocks in the palm. When the central computer accelerated Logan's to a 30-yr old (to support the ruse that he's a runner approaching Lastday), but did not promise to restore his years, or is silent on the question if anyone ever renewed, he decides to run.

The TV version removed the computer, replacing them with a hidden council of elders who maintain order, and promise Francis a spot on the council if he captures Logan & Jessica.

I actually recall it kind of being like the prime-time version of ArkII, a lot of driving around in post-apocalyptic Southern California and meeting/helping random people.

Heh, now I feel like trying to watch it tonight.

Ark II? You're not too far off. Just replace Rem with a talking chimpanzee named Adam....

Agree. Even Gene Roddenberry's tv pilots [Genesis II(1973) and Planet Earth(1974) traveled in the NASA/PAX Subshuttle and Strange New World(1975) traveled in the PAX Vesta Explorer] involved future vehicles transporting the characters post-apocalyptic Southern California and meeting/helping random people like the mentioned Ark II(1976-77) and Logan's Run(1977-78). In the Planet Of The Apes(1974-75) tv series the characters traveled the post-apocalyptic Southern California and meeting/helping random people too, but did not have any vehicle .

 

[eyeresist]

I don't agree with this at all. The arc that Kirk and Spock go through as characters is excellent in TMP. It is certainly more and different than we had ever seen on the Original Series.

I think the character arcs in TMP are to a significant extent imposed by the fans after the fact. Kirk is the captain of the Enterprise very soon into the movie, and Decker's removal by deus ex machina is only a formality. Spock's stiffness early on is argued to be a result of the Kolinar, but is just as easily explained as the writers explaining to new viewers what a Vulcan is in broad strokes. Just as in many TOS episodes, Spock would be hyperlogical in order to play up a later humorous or touching exception.

It became trendy for a time to refer to TMP as "Where Nomad Has Gone Before," but I don't think that's quite fair. Nomad sought its Creator because of damaged and flawed programming. Vger sought its Creator to achieve greater understanding.

But V'Ger did have flawed/damaged programming, in that it refused to recognise that the carbon units were its creator. And it didn't seek to unite with that creator to gain greater understanding, only to pass on its own knowledge and find "closure".

 

[BillJ]

But V'Ger did have flawed/damaged programming, in that it refused to recognise that the carbon units were its creator. And it didn't seek to unite with that creator to gain greater understanding, only to pass on its own knowledge and find "closure".

"Where Nomad Has Gone Before" is a perfectly acceptable moniker for TMP and I say that as someone that likes TMP.

Me and my wife were watching "The Changeling" one night and she asked if one of the movies used pretty much the same story. My reply was, of course, yes.

 

[Warped9]

I don't agree with this at all. The arc that Kirk and Spock go through as characters is excellent in TMP. It is certainly more and different than we had ever seen on the Original Series.

I think the character arcs in TMP are to a significant extent imposed by the fans after the fact. Kirk is the captain of the Enterprise very soon into the movie, and Decker's removal by deus ex machina is only a formality. Spock's stiffness early on is argued to be a result of the Kolinar, but is just as easily explained as the writers explaining to new viewers what a Vulcan is in broad strokes. Just as in many TOS episodes, Spock would be hyperlogical in order to play up a later humorous or touching exception.

It became trendy for a time to refer to TMP as "Where Nomad Has Gone Before," but I don't think that's quite fair. Nomad sought its Creator because of damaged and flawed programming. Vger sought its Creator to achieve greater understanding.

But V'Ger did have flawed/damaged programming, in that it refused to recognise that the carbon units were its creator. And it didn't seek to unite with that creator to gain greater understanding, only to pass on its own knowledge and find "closure".

Vger's "programming" was flawed from our perspective in much the same way we see the thinking of extreme religious fundamentalists as flawed. It wasn't flawed in the context of its own thinking. The distinction is that Vger eventually learned that what it originally accepted as absolute truth was in error when it became willing to look beyond its own perceptions. And it chose to evolve rather than steadfastly adhere to its previous conceptions.

Nomad couldn't accept its own falllibility so it destroyed itself rather than accept the truth.

 

[eyeresist]

V'Ger's programming was flawed due to its enhanced sentience. If it obeyed its original program it would have accepted the code signal, rather than insisting on joining with its creator. Also there was (presumably) nothing in its original program about reducing things to "data patterns" in a process that destroys the thing itself.

 

[Warped9]

But we don't know how much influence came from the machine planet where Voyager 6 ended up. Voyager 6 was a simple probe, but for some reason the machine planet gave the probe enhanced abilities that went beyond merely recording data to be transmitted to its origin point. It gave Voyager 6 the ability to record data in a completely unnecessary way that destroyed whatever it chose to record. The question is why.

Voyager 6 didn't get the idea that machines were the only true form of life out of nowhere. It most likely got that idea from the machine planet, a planet that evolved long after its own creators had ceased to exist. Either the machines had long since forgotten who created them or perhaps they had destroyed their creators in some conflict. Either way they took the idea that machines were the only true form of life. Since that time perhaps they continued to evolve in isolation or they destroyed any organic life they encountered in some form of xenophobic belief they had taken on since they had been first created.

Ages later they passed that on to Voyager 6 when they chose to equip it to return home with whatever data it acquired along the way. Voyager 6 became Vger as it amassed more data and knowledge during its return voyage or perhaps even when it was taken in by the machine planet and equipped to return home.

Voyager 6 was like an orphan child found by grownups with a particular mindset. The machines then taught this simple orphan what they believed to be true then sent it on its way equipped to facilitate its return to its origin point.

Vger was like a child taught by racist and xenophobic adults.


And something different happened when Vger encountered the Enterprise. Firstly (by luck) the Enterprise wasn't destroyed by Vger's first volley to digitize and record the ship. Secondly Kirk made sure they did nothing that could be remotely interpreted as hostile action. And Spock quickly realizing that Vger was trying to communicate enabled them to engage the beginning of a dialogue. This unusual set of events piqued Vger's curiosity and thus gave the Enterprise crew a chance to move forward towards a solution.

Something else happened. We could assume by its actions that Vger never before encountered anyone who piqued its curiosity enough to hold off digitizing them. So all machines and organic life alike were instantly digitized without further consideration. The fact that Kirk and company made an effort to actually communicate with Vger is what saved them.

 

[Maurice]

I wouldn't go that far. I think that the point is that V'ger was built by living machines and thus only thinks of things like it as "alive". Carbon units are so tiny and insignificant that it considers them the way we consider viruses. The cut line "we all create God in our own image" makes this rather clear. It's merely a case of "I am alive ergo things like me are alive".

As to the Enterprise surviving, I always assumed that V'ger attempted to communicate with everything it encountered and when it got (to it) dead-air in reply it just went, "nope, not intelligent life, time to pattern and store." It was Spock figuring out the incredibly high speed of the transmission and replying in kind that saved them.

 

[Warped9]

^^ That really isn't different than what I said. No one before the Enterprise had figured out how Vger was trying to communicate. That Spock figured it out so quickly saved their asses.

 

[arch101]

Great review, Warped9! I agree with most of it completely. It's great that some are still finding this film relevant.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

And Spock figured out how to reply, because he was in telepathic contact with V'ger, and had been, at least intermittently, at least since the Kolinahr graduation ceremony. We'll never know what might have happened had he not picked up on that, of course, but it's clear that Spock used the knowledge that he had acquired telepathically, that V'ger had been trying to make contact, to look for a signal that they hadn't detected yet.

This wasn't a case of Spock being smarter than everyone else, but rather of his having a special, if not unique, combination of a logical mind, human blood, and telepathic sensitivity.

 

[Therin of Andor]

... a screenplay credit shared by Roddenberry and Livingston, with no separate story credit. Of course, the final film credits Livingston with the screenplay, Foster the story, and Roddenberry zip (other than his producer credit). Was there a WGA arbitration that produced this result?

No. Roddenberry had given ADF a copy of his own "Robot's Return" script, designed to be a regular episode of "Planet Earth"/"Genesis II", and asked him to pull out a Trek story long enough to be a two-hour presentation. The result was the story outline for "In Thy Image" but ADF didn't wish to work on it further. (He'd already done ten "Star Trek Logs" adaptations of TAS episodes and a few uncredited Power Records ST scripts).

IIRC, Roddenberry knew that the eventual script (that became TMP) would probably not much resemble what ADF had come up with, but promised that, as a thank you, ADF could have a sole "story by" credit.

Due to "In Thy Image" being based upon "Robot's Return", GR would definitely have been within his rights to demand a portion of "story by..." credit if he'd desired, and if it went to arbitration. (There was an ADF interview that described this sequence of events.) Although, had it gone to arbitration, one would think that the co-writer of "The Changeling" (TOS), John Meredyth Lucas, was probably also owed some story credit.

 

[Maurice]

Harold Livingston didn't want to give Foster the assignment anyway, feeling they needed an experienced teleplay writer to do the script.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Harold Livingston didn't want to give Foster the assignment anyway, feeling they needed an experienced teleplay writer to do the script.

I'm confused. What job was Livingston already doing for the production? Was he already working on the whole of "Phase II"?

 

[Firebird]

Harold Livingston didn't want to give Foster the assignment anyway, feeling they needed an experienced teleplay writer to do the script.

I'm confused. What job was Livingston already doing for the production? Was he already working on the whole of "Phase II"?

I believe that he was the head writer, while Roddenberry was the equivalent of the modern-day showrunner.

 

[Jonathan1999]

Sorry, I missed Ensign Perez, spoken to by name (by Dr. McCoy) in a scene with mechanical Ilia. But he could have been anyone.

How did McCoy even know who Perez was? He'd just come out of retirement, had been on the ship a matter of hours, and knew a guy by name wearing goldfish bowl on his head.

 

[BillJ]

How did McCoy even know who Perez was? He'd just come out of retirement, had been on the ship a matter of hours, and knew a guy by name wearing goldfish bowl on his head.

For all we know, McCoy wrote Ensign Perez' recommendation letter to Starfleet Academy. It is only then that he realizes what a dumbass Perez is and why he sounds grouchy when answering his question about carbon units.

 

[Vger23]

How did McCoy even know who Perez was? He'd just come out of retirement, had been on the ship a matter of hours, and knew a guy by name wearing goldfish bowl on his head.

Easy- McCoy had to conduct a few physicals for late-assigned crew when he came aboard. Perez was one of them.

 

[Tallguy]

Never mind Perez. When did Chapel talk to Ilia about what she wore? And why does Chapel refer to it like it was a long time ago?

(I love TMP.)