Rewatched TMP last night

[Greg Cox]

That makes me an old bag with almost 37. Let's face it, I am an old bag .

Which means you were only two when LOGAN'S RUN came out.

I saw it in high school--on its original release.

It was the first PG movie I got to see in the theater, begged the folks to go see it (I was about to turn eight).

Before it started, I can remember my dad telling me, "You cry and we are leaving...". No tears, however, I think they were a little "oops" when Jenny Agutter stripped naked.

Thankfully, I was old enough to go to the movies by myself at that point. (I think my first PG movie was Count Yorga, Vampire, which gave me nightmares afterwards.)

I wonder how many of our parents dropped us off at the theater, having no idea how racy that LOGAN was . . ..

 

[gottacook]

Having seen Logan's Run in the theater in 1976 and a few times since, I can tell you that whatever impact it had was quickly and completely dissipated by the arrival of Star Wars less than a year later. And having been a fan of the novel, I hated what they did to it. The whole Carousel business was such a cheat - you don't provide the rules in an opening crawl ("...must die at 30 unless reborn via Carousel") and then violate them by having the whole thing be a ruse. I was aware of the network TV series but never bothered to look at it.

Audio stores at the time (at least ones that carried high-end equipment) sold the Bang & Olufsen turntable with tangential-tracking tone arm, just like the one seen mounted to the wall in the Farrah Fawcett laser-surgery parlor scene. A good special effect, of its type.

 

[Greg Cox]

Having seen Logan's Run in the theater in 1976 and a few times since, I can tell you that whatever impact it had was quickly and completely dissipated by the arrival of Star Wars less than a year later. And having been a fan of the novel, I hated what they did to it. The whole Carousel business was such a cheat - you don't provide the rules in an opening crawl ("...must die at 30 unless reborn via Carousel") and then violate them by having the whole thing be a ruse. I was aware of the network TV series but never bothered to look at it.
.

LOGAN'S RUN enjoyed a moment in the spotlight between the end of the PLANET OF THE APES series and the rise of the Lucas/Spielberg sci-fi blockbusters. And I'm old enough to remember when LOGAN costumes were still fashionable at sci-fi conventions.

In a way, it's the missing link between grim seventies dystopias like SOYLENT GREEN, THE OMEGA MAN, SILENT RUNNING, etc., and the more colorful, optimistic, space opera adventures of STAR WARS and its offspring.

It's also arguably right before sex dropped out of sci-fi movies in favor of a more "family-friendly" approach.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

you don't provide the rules in an opening crawl ("...must die at 30 unless reborn via Carousel") and then violate them by having the whole thing be a ruse.

That never bothered me at all. Actually, I thought it was appropriate, given that the main character starts off believing that and the narrative is about Logan as he changes his beliefs.

 

[drt]

I was aware of the network TV series but never bothered to look at it.

From what I remember, I liked the TV show. Saw it as a kid, and when one of the UHF channels ran it when I was in college - so I haven't seen it in 25 years (I actually bought the DVDs at Target a year or so ago, but haven't got around to rewatching them). It was even further afield from the original movie - the Sandman guns were more like phasers and often used on "stun", which was probably a 70s TV non-violence thing. I never saw the pilot, and I can't recall exactly why Logan was "running" - but I think that was changed up as well. I actually recall it kind of being like the prime-time version of ArkII, a lot of driving around in post-apocalyptic Southern California and meeting/helping random people.

Heh, now I feel like trying to watch it tonight.

 

[arch101]

[/QUOTE]
Before it started, I can remember my dad telling me, "You cry and we are leaving...". No tears, however, I think they were a little "oops" when Jenny Agutter stripped naked.[/QUOTE]

The DVD commentary is hilarious. Agutter drops her dress, and York loudly exclaims "OOOhhhh, Jenny!"

 

[Greg Cox]

I was aware of the network TV series but never bothered to look at it.

From what I remember, I liked the TV show. Saw it as a kid, and when one of the UHF channels ran it when I was in college - so I haven't seen it in 25 years (I actually bought the DVDs at Target a year or so ago, but haven't got around to rewatching them). It was even further afield from the original movie - the Sandman guns were more like phasers and often used on "stun", which was probably a 70s TV non-violence thing. I never saw the pilot, and I can't recall exactly why Logan was "running" - but I think that was changed up as well. I actually recall it kind of being like the prime-time version of ArkII, a lot of driving around in post-apocalyptic Southern California and meeting/helping random people.

Heh, now I feel like trying to watch it tonight.

The show was okay, as I recall, but nothing to write home about. The basic premise was the same: Logan and Jessica were on the run from Francis while searching for Sanctuary.

The only major change was that Logan and Jessica had an android sidekick named REM.

 

[Pauln6]

Good call on lowering the renewal age in nuLR to 18, Greg. I think that could really work.

Agree. Twenty-one was in the novel, but eighteen is better for a nuLR film.

Imagine some pretty young seventeen-year-old encountering a wrinkled old man for the first time. It would be even more of a shock than in the first movie!

If it's 21 in the novel then that's fair enough but it's debatable if it would be workable as a model for a society and 18 is even more impractical. You'd have to have a very fertile population to maintain a stable population with such a narrow breeding window. Look at how China's population stabilised with a one-child policy and that's with people living to be 100.

The re-make of the Andromeda Strain with a younger cast did NOT make it better.

 

[Greg Cox]

Agree. Twenty-one was in the novel, but eighteen is better for a nuLR film.

Imagine some pretty young seventeen-year-old encountering a wrinkled old man for the first time. It would be even more of a shock than in the first movie!

If it's 21 in the novel then that's fair enough but it's debatable if it would be workable as a model for a society and 18 is even more impractical. You'd have to have a very fertile population to maintain a stable population with such a narrow breeding window. Look at how China's population stabilised with a one-child policy and that's with people living to be 100.

I assume that the babies in LOGAN'S RUN were test-tube babies gestated in mechanical wombs or whatever. We're told that marriage and families don't exist anymore, and nobody seems to be pregnant or raising children. Nobody knows who their parents are either.

And if you only had 21 years to live, would you really want to waste nine months pregnant? Especially if you're never going to have any sort of relationship with the baby?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I got the impression in the film that fertilized embryos were extracted from women who became pregnant at an orgy or other romantic encounter and then the embryos were grown in artificial wombs. That explains how there was a possibility that Logan was looking at the seed mother of Logan-6, among the group of girls he and Francis saw from afar at Carousel. I'd suspect that the computer further eliminated embryos it deemed less fit than others, or otherwise randomly kept the population in balance.

 

[Greg Cox]

I got the impression in the film that fertilized embryos were extracted from women who became pregnant at an orgy or other romantic encounter and then the embryos were grown in artificial wombs. That explains how there was a possibility that Logan was looking at the seed mother of Logan-6, among the group of girls he and Francis saw from afar at Carousel. I'd suspect that the computer further eliminated embryos it deemed less fit than others, or otherwise randomly kept the population in balance.

It's been a few years since I last saw the movie. I remember Jessica visiting the creche where the babies were kept, but I can't remember if they explained how they were conceived.

And what was the story with the feral children in the deserted part of the city?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Logan is at the nursery at the beginning looking at his son. We don't ever see Jessica in the nursery.

The cubs do seem fairly anomalous. You'd think that discipline would be stricter. Maybe the idea was that the City was starting to break down, at least somewhat?

They had a nutrient problem in the City—apparently—because Box said that the fish stopped coming, and Old Man said that the fish died in DC. (eta: But apparently, Box wasn't feeding anything into the City anyway, see my next post below.) That sounds kinda bad actually, and, frankly, it's one of the dropped balls in the film. Obviously, if the ecosystem is dying outside, the City people are likely going to be incapable of making it.* It's not the same sort of message as, say, the environment having healed itself and it being safe to come out of the City.

Anyway, I thought there had to be some imperative for the Computer to decide that the missing runners were worth tracking down. If the leakage of biomatter reached a certain threshold, coupled with no more biomatter being taken into the City (eta: or actually none at all, since Box was only storing everything), then that would be a problem worth solving. I have no idea what the balances would look like, but I imagine that if the City biosphere were stressed and in danger, as the premise would seem to indicate, the Computer might not be able to afford energy to do some tasks it would normally do under ideal conditions. Perhaps the feral cubs were a symptom of that.

edited to add: * - Or, after all the food that Box stored is gone, their descendants won't be able to survive.

I had forgotten that Box just stored everything. But now that I've been reminded of that, I remember wondering years ago whether the idea with the disappearance of the fish (that both Box and Old Man remarked on) was that Box had somehow stored all sea life. Or maybe there were other Boxes and Cities around Earth. It's an interesting prospect, but again it's a dropped ball in the film, and if that was the idea it wouldn't be a very happy ending; very Soylent Green like, actually, since the oceans died in that film or partially so (whether it was total ocean death I don't recall).

 

[eyeresist]

All this talk of Logan's Run reminds me of THX-1138, a similar story but a much better movie. If only the non-"enhanced" version was available.

 

[drt]

If the leakage of biomatter reached a certain threshold, coupled with no more biomatter being taken into the City, then that would be a problem worth solving.

Box was feeding the Runners back into the City in the place of the fish, but it could be the Computer was unaware of that, also I'd assume more fish were taken in than could be replaced by Runners. However, preservation of human biomatter didn't seem to be a concern since it seemed that the bodies of Carousel were disintegrated (although what happens to them after the sparking is unclear), plus they disintegrate terminated runners. Might have been that the loss of Runners just reached a critical number (1000) and that triggered the computer to investigate.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

If the leakage of biomatter reached a certain threshold, coupled with no more biomatter being taken into the City, then that would be a problem worth solving.

Box was feeding the Runners back into the City in the place of the fish, but it could be the Computer was unaware of that, also I'd assume more fish were taken in than could be replaced by Runners. However, preservation of human biomatter didn't seem to be a concern since it seemed that the bodies of Carousel were disintegrated (although what happens to them after the sparking is unclear), plus they disintegrate terminated runners. Might have been that the loss of Runners just reached a critical number (1000) and that triggered the computer to investigate.

No, I'm pretty sure Box just stored the runners. We could, after all, see their frozen bodies.

In fact, on just checking what Box said, I made an error. He stored everything a froze, including all the fish and plankton. He never fed anything he froze into the City ecosystem at all. So, he's like a giant icebox (get it?) with lots of food ready to be used.

With the City ecosystem closed, eventually the loss of runner biomatter would irreparably damage the ecosystem. Even if it hadn't reached that point yet, it was something that needed to be stopped.

By the way, the TV show had the Carousel victims disintegrated. In the movie, they blew up. I recall reading at the time, most likely in a Starlog, that the change to disintegration for the TV show was to make the premise seem less violent. Explosion would change the chemical composition, but of course it would still preserve the elements.

 

[Warped9]

Getting back on topic...

Last night--partly motivated by this thread--I rewatched TMP which I haven't done for quite awhile. I watched the DE version and it's interesting how you can see something familiar a bit differently over the years and even notice things you don't recall noticing before.

Firstly I think the DE really deserves a proper transfer to BluRay and that includes updating (remaking) the new f/x sequences. For me the DE fixes a lot of things I had issue with TMP all the way back to 1979 and with the SLV as well. In my opinion the DE is the film we should have gotten in 1979 even while acknowledging some of the remaining missteps that cannot be corrected with editing and finished visual elements. You simply can't go back and add more story along with film new live-action scenes--not unless you can perfectly recreate the sight and sound of the original cast in their younger days and cgi isn't that advanced yet.

TMP has been panned a lot since 1979 influenced (I think) a great deal by changing perceptions due to forty years of evolving SF on the big screen and in television. Yes, some of those criticisms existed even in 1979, but some others strike me as more recent.

I think it took nerve to film the existing story. The success of Star Wars was fresh in the public's mind and expectations were already changing. If TMP had come out before Star Wars then it might have been received somewhat more favourably, but as it happened I think a lot of folks could have been projecting their view of Star Wars into their expectations for TMP before it was released. But just as "The Cage" bucked expectations for SF on television TMP resisted the temptation to play follow-the-leader to Star Wars. And Robert Wise as director was also a statement for the aspirations Roddenberry and company had for TMP--it was meant to be more than just run-and-jump.

It became trendy for a time to refer to TMP as "Where Nomad Has Gone Before," but I don't think that's quite fair. Nomad sought its Creator because of damaged and flawed programming. Vger sought its Creator to achieve greater understanding. If they shared a similarity it's in that they couldn't conceive of life existing beyond their own narrowly defined perceptions. On this point, though, I think there is a flaw to each of Nomad's and Vger's supposed intellect, particularly Vger's. In amassing supposedly so much knowledge Vger should have already known that organic biological life was common throughout the universe. To not recognize that then Vger (and the machine planet from where it originated) would have had to exist in complete isolation or they deliberately chose to define "true life" in their own narrow terms.

Anyways while rewatching TMP I'm struck by how much more nuance there is to it than I generally recall. Overall I find the performances much better than I recall. I also had very little issue with the pacing overall. While there remain moments I think could still be snipped overall I think it works quite well. I say this based greatly on seeing how Robert Wise was crafting a science fiction film as opposed to just hashing out a Star Trek flick. And it's possible that that's where some of the dissonance comes from. TMP could have been told with completely original characters and setting and still work. But because it's told with already familiar characters and setting we can feel something is missing.

Yet this is where part of the nuance and smarts kicks in. The characters don't immediately behave as we expect because they're not supposed to. They've been apart and out of sync for an extended period. Setting aside Gene Roddenberry's novelization (because if it's not onscreen then it can be argued to not really count) we're not told (in the film) why Kirk isn't still commanding a starship barely three years after the end of the 5-year mission (seen in TOS). What happened to put him in the position he holds at the beginning of the film? What happened to convince Spock he really needed to purge himself of his human side? McCoy's change in status could simply be because without Kirk and Spock a career in Starfleet no longer held any appeal for him.

There's also a moment in the film where Christine Chapel remarks that Ilia once told her she wore a particular decorative headband. Really? And when did she have time to tell Chapel that? Or is it possible that Chapel already knew Ilia from sometime before current events? (In real world terms it's possible this line of Chapel's was leftover from when the story was to be filmed for Phase II).

In some loose respects TMP could be interpreted as something of an origin story as everyone is brought back together, but there's also a good measure of subtext going on that is never explained (and doesn't need to be) that the audience is left to interpret themselves. In that sense it's definitely not an origin story but yet another chapter in an ongoing story that began throughout TOS.

KirK could be criticized for his bull-headedness during the early goings of the story, but eventually we see that Kirk's instincts are still on target--Decker was not the man to lead the mission. He simply didn't have what it took to know when to push and when to hold. He was overly cautious and too inexperienced (and in that regard I think he had no business commanding a deep space starship). This lacking in hand with his eagerness to merge with Vger is another bit of subtext harkening to Roddenberry's references to a "new humanity" in TMP's novelization. Again not being onscreen it doesn't really count, but Decker's behaviour is onscreen and we're left to individually interpret it. Decker simply didn't have Kirk's calibre of instincts. Maybe Decker could have developed those instincts through years of experience, but Kirk knew there simply wasn't time for that. The time was now and Decker was ill-suited for the job at hand.

The real nerve of TMP (and this would be revisted in TFF) goes beyond asking the questions, "Why am I here?" and "Is this all I am?" The real nerve is daring to state that we all create God(s) in our own image. It's right there for everyone to see and some of what we see isn't at all flattering.

Vger has a very narrow definition of what deserves to be accepted as "true life" and it unthinkingly destroys and excludes anything that doesn't fit its definition. This is exactly how religious fundamentalists (of all kinds) behave with those they see as not in accord with their own narrow perceptions. They will denigrate, discredit and even seek to destroy anyone and anything outside their viewpoint. This element of TMP alone makes it easily as relevant today as in anytime in history.

Was this a conscious element of the script and Wise's direction or just a byproduct of other things being said in the film? Who knows(?), but it hardly matters because it's right there hand-in-hand with the assertion of each of us creating God(s) in our own image and our own defining of the meaning for our existence.

TMP is an ambitious film that succeeds more than it falters. Where it falters is in lacking a bit more character interplay and dramatic tension. But if you compare it to 2001 (which a lot of people do) TMP has a lot more warmth and character to it due to our familiarity with the characters and the cast's performances. In that regard it surpasses 2001. With a little more character to it (and perhaps a dash more humour) TMP could have been more like Interstellar which I think struck a really good balance of thought, spectacle and character.

In terms of visual presentation--or more specifically concept and design--I find TMP a bit of hit-and-miss. Ideally I still would like to have seen a bit more connective tissue with TOS in some of the designs, particularly the costuming. And with the costuming I wish they had forgone the one-piece style uniforms and injected a bit more colour to the rest. The quite muted blue-grey and beige lends the film a sense of sterility. More colour in the uniforms, even somewhat muted, would have conveyed more warmth. As for the design of the uniforms overall I would ideally have liked something a bit different, but I also applaud the aspiration to depict something futuristic and a bit unfamiliar. In terms of set design I think some of them, particularly the bridge, could have used just a bit more splash of colour simply to give the film a bit more warmth. One criticism I have is with the corridors we saw. They might not be representative of all the corridors aboard the ship, but as is they made the interior feel more cramped than that of the TOS Enterprise. In the desire to seem more realistic they forgot the fact that the ship is supposed to be a comfortable place for the crew for missions of years duration. Cramped looking interiors don't strike me as something to have when you're going to be sealed in a can for years on end. Note that TNG went back to more spacious interiors for the 1701D.

So all things considered I rate TMP as a qualified success. It achieves most of what it sets out to do, but could have been better with another deft rewrite. Contrast this with TFF which I see as something of a noble failure--a film with its heart in the right place, but poorly executed.

 

[gottacook]

It achieves most of what it sets out to do, but could have been better with another deft rewrite.

I have no quarrel with this, but I do wonder whether anyone here has knowledge of the reasons for the change in writing credit. The very early magazine ad headlined "A 23rd Century Odyssey Now" (http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2rcx6hg&s=3; copyright date 1978), which I saw at the time, has a screenplay credit shared by Roddenberry and Livingston, with no separate story credit. Of course, the final film credits Livingston with the screenplay, Foster the story, and Roddenberry zip (other than his producer credit). Was there a WGA arbitration that produced this result?

 

[Vger23]

It's also possible that TMP suffered retroactively by comparison to WRATH OF KHAN. When TMP debuted, there were no other Trek films to compare it to, so sympathetic reviewers compared it to 2001.

(I also believe that there's a fair amount of CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THIRD KIND in the movie's DNA, but that tends to be overlooked as people forget what a big hit CLOSE ENCOUNTERS was at the time.)

(I may have said this before, but...)
The late 70s really saw a big change in the way movies were made, chiefly in terms of pace. TMP is extremely slow in comparison with TWOK, but also in comparison with other fantasy adventures of the time, such as Raiders of the Lost Ark, Aliens and the Star Wars movies. I see it as really the last gasp of the big screen epics of the 50s and 60s: the Bible movies, the David Lean films, etc.

Close Encounters has been mentioned a lot as a point of comparison, but that film differs from TMP in some important ways:

1. Even though it's not action-packed, the directing style is much slicker than Wise's, full of little moments of crisis and suspense, and the staging is much less static.
2. The big light show at the end is an emotional pay-off to the journey of the film, whereas TMP's lacks dramatic content (it's ten minutes of one emotion), and is only a stop-off midway to the end (I'd compare it with the journey upriver in Heart of Darkness in that way).
3. Although we can talk about the emotional experiences of the characters in TMP, these things are really observed at arms length, brusque dialog in sterile corridors, whereas TWOK makes a point of getting us emotionally close to the characters from the beginning: Chekov's unexpected discovery of an old enemy, followed by helplessness and torture. Kirk traumatised and lost on his birthday, with his friends gathered round to comfort him. Scott's nephew joining him in the engine room (though they really needed a different actor).
TWOK takes place within an emotional, social world, whereas TMP takes place in a vacuum. This is part of the reason it's compared to Kubrick's 2001, but that movie was designed to be a philosophical, mystical experience in the vein of Olaf Stapledon, whereas TMP is at heart a Space Patrol adventure, which requires easier identification with the heroes than I think TMP allows us.

I'd say part of the problem is that TMP is a TV episode writ large, and in TV series of that time there was no expectation of character development. The heroes would face a problem, solve it, and finish up basically the way they started. It was TWOK which established a precedent for Trek movies being based in the emotional journey of the characters.

I don't agree with this at all. The arc that Kirk and Spock go through as characters is excellent in TMP. It is certainly more and different than we had ever seen on the Original Series.

 

[Warped9]

It was TWOK which established a precedent for Trek movies being based in the emotional journey of the characters.

I don't agree with this at all. The arc that Kirk and Spock go through as characters is excellent in TMP. It is certainly more and different than we had ever seen on the Original Series.

True. TMP is a film that does work if you pay attention as opposed to having to be hit over the head to notice what's going on. TMP benefits from repeated viewings...albeit not necessarily back-to-back.

TWOK is a more action oriented story, but in the process it jettisons a lot of intelligence replaced by huge plot holes and nonsensical choices. TWOK, like the successive films, doesn't really benefit from repeated viewings to show us much we missed the first time around. It also hasn't aged that well along with the rest of the film franchise. And a case can be made that TWOK is just as much a television scale story as TMP. The idea behind TWOK: the cost of revenge? Hmm, seems I saw that before...in "The Doomsday Machine" and "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield."


Yes, film was evolving in the '70s and '80s (as it has always been evolving), but that isn't always for the better.

 

[Warped9]

Another thing I like about TMP was its ending. There was the sense that our heroes had returned where they belong and we were set to enjoy new adventures on the final frontier.

But, alas, Harve Bennet and Nicholas Meyer nixed all that to tear it all down and gives us the characters practically ready for retirement. The kind of adventures we had known would never come again until TNG. And, of course, that was with a completely different cast of characters.