• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Revisiting the Golden VGR Relaunch + Full Circle

Well what about the plot point of Baines apparently uploading his mind to a holographic matrix and faking his death?

I'm happy to see any and all plot points from Trek books followed up on in later books. :)

Well, almost all. I'm sure even I can think of a couple that should be buried in the yard and quietly forgotten...:lol:

But, sure, I'd by happy to see HoloBaines again.
 
Who says that holographic/AI rights aren't an issue of "actual substance?" Equal rights are always important to fight for, no matter how small the group.
 
I find the holographic rights issue to be really fascinating.
It's a slippery slope and a real messy moral issue. At what point do you recognize AI sentience? Even if it's rare, that rare sentient AI deserves to have rights or it puts a lie to the values and morals of the Federation.
I'd be afraid to use holograms in their world once this issue came out for fear of doing harm to a sentient being - but I also could easily imagine getting addicted to the holodeck, where you can have the perfect life and relationships that seem all but impossible in real life. Of course, life in the Federation is a lot better than real life already, but still. How tempting it would be to just program up the perfect life, the perfect lover/partner, friends and family, when real life and real relationships are such a struggle. I already prefer to escape into fiction as much as possible already with the more limited options of books and tv.
And I agree with Christopher, that equal rights shouldn't be a number game. The right wing has tried to use that logic with reporting vastly low statistics for numbers of gay people, as if equality and fairness were a numbers game.
Even if it was just one sentient hologram, he deserves his rights based on that number. The possibility of more sentient holograms should cause for serious changes in how the Federation handles holograms, to make sure that they can identify when a hologram goes sentient and to protect their rights, so you don't have sentient AIs being tortured or prostituted out for entertainment. Most holograms of course would never reach sentience, but where do you draw the line?
 
I find the holographic rights issue to be really fascinating.
It's a slippery slope and a real messy moral issue. At what point do you recognize AI sentience?

Society is beginning to debate the same question now with regards to animal intelligence. We're learning that many animals are more intelligent and self-aware than we've suspected, and there are movements underway to get certain species recognized as nonhuman persons with the right to be free from captivity and experimentation. The first such effort succeeded just last month with a captive orangutan in Argentina.

So we're moving toward establishing a gradation between "human" and "animal/thing" -- an intermediate category for entities that aren't entitled to full membership in society and voting and property rights and such, but are entitled to basic habeas corpus rights (i.e. freedom from being owned or held in captivity) and protection from mistreatment or killing. In other words, something like the status of human children. In cases where there's any uncertainty at all, it would probably be best to default to putting an entity in that category, rather than defaulting to the "okay to own, mistreat, or kill" category until proven otherwise.


I'd be afraid to use holograms in their world once this issue came out for fear of doing harm to a sentient being... The possibility of more sentient holograms should cause for serious changes in how the Federation handles holograms, to make sure that they can identify when a hologram goes sentient and to protect their rights, so you don't have sentient AIs being tortured or prostituted out for entertainment. Most holograms of course would never reach sentience, but where do you draw the line?

The thing is, I'm not sure that's really a risk. I doubt a holographic character being "tortured" would really feel pain, since it's really just a computer program animating a forcefield construct to mimic the behavior and reactions of a corporeal being. From its perspective, that would just be roleplaying. It would be possible to cause it to suffer by doing something to damage or disrupt its program on a software level, or by tormenting it psychologically (see "Latent Image"), but it probably wouldn't experience any real suffering if you, say, stabbed its holographic "body" with a knife or set it on fire. Even if it mimicked the appearance and behavior of a person in great pain, that would just be a perfomance, a shadow-puppet show.

Same with prostitution -- whatever is done to a hologram's "body" is just an illusion. It probably wouldn't experience the physical sensation the same way we do, even if it projected the illusion of doing so. After all, its body is just a hollow shell of forcefields, with no hormones or blood flow or anything going on inside. There's no way the experience could be the same.

Anyway, I'm not sure prostitution would be all that exploitative in the future. I hear that even today, the job of pimp is starting to die out as more and more sex workers become their own managers, using the Internet to find clients. If that's true, it means there's a trend toward less exploitation in the industry, more free choice. And of course in the Federation's moneyless economy, there's no incentive to go into sex work except by choice.
 
The thing is, I'm not sure that's really a risk. I doubt a holographic character being "tortured" would really feel pain, since it's really just a computer program animating a forcefield construct to mimic the behavior and reactions of a corporeal being. From its perspective, that would just be roleplaying. It would be possible to cause it to suffer by doing something to damage or disrupt its program on a software level, or by tormenting it psychologically (see "Latent Image"), but it probably wouldn't experience any real suffering if you, say, stabbed its holographic "body" with a knife or set it on fire. Even if it mimicked the appearance and behavior of a person in great pain, that would just be a perfomance, a shadow-puppet show.

What about in "Future's End, when Henry Starling modified the Doctor's program to allow him to feel pain? That looked like torture to me.
 
What about in "Future's End, when Henry Starling modified the Doctor's program to allow him to feel pain? That looked like torture to me.

Yes, but as you said, he had to specially modify the program to make it happen. And it's not like the pain the Doctor experienced was the result of injury to his flesh, because he doesn't have any flesh. It was a purely cognitive analog induced directly in his neural network. My point is that if you're playing a game on a holodeck and you shoot or stab a holographic character, they won't feel that as pain the same way that a living being would, because their bodies are nothing but illusions. You can't accidentally inflict suffering on a sapient hologram by creating the appearance of pain in the forcefield puppet of a body that it controls. After all, we've seen that the EMH can make his own body intangible and immune to harm if he has full control over himself. If you want to inflict suffering in an AI, you have to do it deliberately and in a way that targets the AI's mind directly.
 
I'm about halfway through Homecoming and I find it pretty weird (the Libby thing) and boring. I'm wondering if I should just stop and skip ahead to Full Circle.
 
I'm about halfway through Homecoming and I find it pretty weird (the Libby thing) and boring. I'm wondering if I should just stop and skip ahead to Full Circle.

Full Circle is great and it fills you in on what you've missed...but for some reason, I still like Golden's books. They aren't nearly as good as Kirsten's Voyager stories, but as she's so far ahead of so many writers (including Christie Golden), that it's nearly impossible for the early books to live up to what came after. Maybe just MB'ing the rest of the Golden books and heading right into Full Circle isn't such a bad idea..
 
Good idea! But I am going to read The Farther Shore as well. Homecoming finally got exciting so I will want to continue.
 
(Spoilers) Actually I rather liked Spirit Walk Book 1; to me seeing how a new captain (a character who I liked anyway) takes over Voyager was interesting (I enjoy Trek human interest stories more ie what characters are personally doing vs. a whole bunch of space battles, although those have their place in Trek of course). But even now I still haven't been able to read too much of Spirit Walk 2 (altho probably should try again); right away at the start of the book was bloodshed, and the whole premise to me was "torturous" (literally and figuratively), so, although I liked Homecoming 1 & 2 ok,(well the parts concerning the Voyager characters, old and new, the "villainess" backstory, not so much) I wasn't so fond with about 1/3 of Spirit Walk. (Of course JMO.)
 
Last edited:
Chakotay is not one of my favourite characters, so reading two entire books based around him is not interesting to me. Thanks though:)
 
Chakotay is not one of my favourite characters, so reading two entire books based around him is not interesting to me. Thanks though:)

Well of course one should read what is your interest, lol, though I was also trying to express that I was frustrated w/ not caring for Spirit Walk 2 after I rather enjoyed Spirit Walk 1 (the tone difference between the two books was to me fairly strange) but guess that's how it goes when posting an opinion!http://www.trekbbs.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=10594477
 
With Chakotay, during the TV series he always tended to get the short end of the stick, and I found that by the end of the series we really didn't know that much more about Chakotay than we did at the start, compared to the other characters. "Spirit Walk" while it's not the best duology, did try to build up Chakotay's character. But the SW books are not the first Voyager-R books to focus Chakotay. Throughout the other VOY-R books, Chakotay really gets bumped up to the star position.
 
Kirsten makes Chakotay into the character we always wanted him to be. She does more for him in her first two stories (Full Circle & Unworthy) than was done for him in the entire seven year run on TV. It's my belief that if Janeway had remained dead, then the Voyager books would've still had a great lead character to center around :techman:
 
Well in the next Beyer book from the blurb it seems that Chakotay has quite a big role to play in the proceedings and should continue to get his due. Well why not, it's a 400 page book, there should be room enough for all present Voyager characters to shine. IMO maybe just less time spent on a certain other-ship made-for fiction character who to me is rather-off putting and sometimes gets too much attention. And this with Janeway thankfully being back where she belongs, in Voyager novels, lol. P.S. even w/ out KJ in the 2 books she didn't appear Chakotay was still not the big boss, and I don't know if Starfleet would ever make him so in the first place. But I'd say him being now Voyager's captain gives him enough standing to be quite important (well IMO he was anyway).
 
Chakotay is not one of my favourite characters, so reading two entire books based around him is not interesting to me. Thanks though:)

Well of course one should read what is your interest, lol, though I was also trying to express that I was frustrated w/ not caring for Spirit Walk 2 after I rather enjoyed Spirit Walk 1 (the tone difference between the two books was to me fairly strange) but guess that's how it goes when posting an opinion!http://www.trekbbs.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=10594477

I've never thought of reading Spirit Walk as a way of getting to know Chakotay better. It's not that I don't like him, I just find him boring. Maybe I will give it a try. I just really want to get to the relaunch books. It's weird. Five months ago I didn't want to read them at all but after finishing the series in November, I miss the crew. It's not often when a show ends that there is a continuation.
 
Last edited:
Well I'm not saying of course one has to read the Spirit Walk books, like I said for me I couldn't even read most of the 2nd one. But some Voyager fans might find them interesting, it's really up to the person.
 
Spirit Walk had the potential to be the book that made Chakotay. It certainly made me like and care for Chakotay more than Voyager (save a few episodes. "Splintered" is what he should have been him the whole show.) But the duology is... weak.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top