That is obviously not what Tuvok meant.
Revisiting the Breen
- Thread starter Nerroth
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That is obviously not what Tuvok meant.
Unless they are but don't look like it...
Venom Geek Media has a interesting theory about Breen Ship design and how it could be very modular.
They writers/producers might have not known about that mention in Voyager or just messed up, like a bunch of other stuff in the show, but you could just say it's like a combination of organic and with a metal shell or something. Hey, just the like Cylon ships in the new BSG. Before Season 7 I just envisioned them as like the Vorlon ships in B5.
Nobody suggested Tuvok doesn't know what he talks about, don't try to twist it. He doesn't say Breen ships were organic, he says, again
, "[The Breen] use organic-based vessels." It only requires some basic reading comprehension (!) to deduce that his brief, vague statement doesn't necessarily include the entirety of their fleets, nor does he explain what "organic-based" means. The thing is that your your narrow fan fic interpretation is objectively wrong, and now you also believe to know what exactly the writers wanted, sure, what's next? Not how it works, buddy.
If some in-universe character told us, "Starfleet uses black vessels like this one",
they would be right. Does Starfleet exclusively use "Batmobile"-like spacecraft now? With your logic they do.
that is not obvious at all. Some fans took the idea from that to mean it was a living ship, or some kind of biomass, or Thomas the Tank engine. It could be some advanced carbon based material, it could be biological, hell it could be made out of wood.
Nobody suggested Tuvok doesn't know what he talks about, don't try to twist it. He doesn't say Breen ships were organic, he says, again
Not how it works, buddy.
If some in-universe character told us, "Starfleet uses black vessels like this one",
they would be right. Does Starfleet exclusively use "Batmobile"-like spacecraft now? With your logic they do.
First of all, can the attitude. We're disagreeing with each other, but I'm acting in a civil manner in this discussion. You are acting like a ten year old. It's getting tiresome.
Second, the very fact that Tuvok made the distinction about organic vessels as opposed to ships made out of metal and plastic means that the writer's intent was that all Breen vessels have this distinction. As I mentioned before, and you decided to ignore, is that if the writer meant to say that only some Breen ships are organic, that's what he would have had Tuvok say. To the audience, there's no difference between saying 'organic-based' and 'organic.' The audience knows that Tuvok is talking about ships that are alive, and that the Breen use them exclusively.
As for what we eventually saw in DS9, it's obvious that the producers completely forgot this completely forgettable line from a completely different show.
As I mentioned above, if Breen ships were made out of carbon like Starfleet vessels are, there would have been no point in him making the distinction that they are organic. I'm not interested in what 'some fans' think. I am going by what I saw on screen. At this point I feel like you are now being obtuse just for the sake of being obtuse.
I'm not, though I can see why you would think that. If the writers had wanted to say bio-ship or something cool like that, they would have. It would have sounded better. But they left every detail of the Breen as vague as possible. Since they generally describe starships as being made out of some magic metal like tritanium, maybe having a carbon based hull is an oddity in the future. No idea.
IIRC it was made more clear that the 8472 ships were actually biological in origin.
I seriously doubt that the writer of that VOY episode really had any idea about the lasting effect it would have when the alien race in question (and their ships) was actually shown on screen years later. The producers and writers of DS9 certainly didn't know or care about it. Their goal wasn't to give the Breen any kind of development; their goal was to have the Breen be a plot device to enlarge the Dominion's forces in the Alpha Quadrant.
And you bring up a good point about Species 8472 and their ships. Tuvok's line of dialogue about the Breen ships was made as a direct comparison to Species 8472's bioships. So obviously he meant organic in that sense, not just something made out of carbon or wood.
At a certain point in time the Breen became Star Trek's "mystery box" alien race. They would be named dropped whenever appropriate to something mysterious happened (i.e. organic ships, disruptor weapons in Generations, the Romulan phrase about never turning your back on a Breen).
All we have is mystery box aliens. So, there ships could be organic, but maybe not all ships. The Breen pretty much means "it's weird."
All we have is mystery box aliens. So, there ships could be organic, but maybe not all ships. The Breen pretty much means "it's weird."
The ships we saw on screen did not look organic. Tuvok's statement was an absolute, not a rumor or an intent to be misinformation. So something got changed between his statement and the Breen ships showing up on screen.
What changed was just the Breen being mysterious. It's meaningless fluff with Tuvok's statement being as accurate as the plot needed it to be.
what would that look like?
Considering Tuvok was comparing Breen ships to Species 8472 bioships, I would think that Breen ships would have the same characteristics. As in, they look more organic and alive than a ship made out of metal would.
That is true. An 87 Ford Taurus was a living thing made from an exotic arrangement of multi and unicellular organisms whereas an 84 Ford Escort was made of metal and plastic.
Maybe not all Breen ships have organic components. An early draft of "The Changing Face of Evil" would have established that the Breen ships that hit Earth had highly efficient cloaks, which is why they managed to penetrate so far into Fed space without being detected. Those lines were cut from the aired version and we never saw any of the Dominion-allied Breen ships cloak, but they might still possess the ability.
* shrugs *
* shrugs *
Okay, here's where you're being intentionally obtuse again. You know exactly what I mean, yet feel the need to go on these pointless nonsequitors in some futile attempt to be clever. If this is the kind of discussion I'm going to expect from you, I'm not going to waste my time responding to you further.
I was making fun of your posts, not you, it's hardly uncivilised. Wanna know what some ten-year-olds tend to do? They like parroting others:
Put your stones away, you are living in a glass house.
You think it's getting tiresome, I am already tired of your nonsense.
I didn't ignore anything, your entire "argument" is essentially still "because I say so, because I speak for the writers", and again, no, you can't just decide what Tuvok's remark should have been in order to have a different meaning.
You think an organic(-based) vessel has to be 100 % organic which is just another piece of fanon. We know that elements of a starship can be organic as well. Voyagers gel packs and the organic hulls of several 32nd century Starfleet vessels come to my mind, even though I wouldn't call those two in particular organic, one gets the point.
Oh, you are speaking for the audience too, got it, got it. Shouldn't have asked what would be next, my bad.
I am part of the audience, and I see a difference like everyone else who is slightly familiar with the term "base". A base, in terms of a physical contruction, is the lowest support, probably the foundation of a ship in this case. As I said, this may relate to the inner hull, or the frame-work etc. In any case, it would be just a part of a vessel.
As far as I am concerned, it doesn't matter whether they forgot it, the point is there is no contradiction between the description in VOY and what we see in DS9.
Guess there is nothing more to say, we are going round in cricles, and I can't reason with you on this topic. That's it.
Maybe not all Breen ships have organic components. An early draft of "The Changing Face of Evil" would have established that the Breen ships that hit Earth had highly efficient cloaks, which is why they managed to penetrate so far into Fed space without being detected. Those lines were cut from the aired version and we never saw any of the Dominion-allied Breen ships cloak, but they might still possess the ability.
* shrugs *
They should have kept those lines.
Then feel free to put me on your ignore list, newbie. But I'm pretty certain that the way you're going, you're not going to be around here much longer. But that's not up to me.
To both of you:
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