Revisiting Star Trek TOS/TAS...

[CorporalCaptain]

general consensus is probably 90-10% against you.

Sorry, you're going to have to defend those numbers. If you can't, that's just your perception.

I don't have access to the 3 or 4 polls I've seen, so maybe we should start a new one in the general forum.

Add to this perception that the many of those who worked on the episode preferred the new FX and you really are pretty alone out there in the wilderness.

RAMA

Says you. Polls here aren't scientific, by which is meant "accurate." Make your poll. It will prove nothing.

Besides, whether I am alone in thinking of TOS-R The Doomsday Machine precisely as "an abomination" has no bearing on how many TOS fans prefer the remastered version or the original, which is the real issue.

I do know that if you keep insisting and hammering at something you usually don't persuade others, but rather you start pissing them off.

Right. Thanks. Tact carries currency, especially as does respect for contrary views.

 

[Tallguy]

The bar for Doomsday is so high I'm not sure anyone can really improve it. That is, everyone thinks there can be FX that are better than the originals (most think that it should be pretty easy), but everyone has such a different opinion of what those would look like. Stick with the original DM? Make it look more like Spinrad's original concept? Keep the Constellation's AMT proportions? Make her look more like the 11 footer? Choices choices choices.

Because of this the orignals still hold up really well. They tell the story.

The hangar deck is a pretty good example of this. I've come to the realization that I don't CARE what will fit in the Enterprise. I LIKE the dimensions of the original miniature set. Some people think making it more "real" is an improvement. I don't.

 

[Tallguy]

The bar for Doomsday is so high I'm not sure anyone can really improve it.

I'm re-watching Darren Doc's DM. I may have to take that back.

 

[Forbin]

For the most part, I found no fault with DM's new effects, except that stupid X-Wing-like strafing run down the length of the planet killer. I thought that looked, well, stupid.

 

[Warped9]

“The Apple” **

A seemingly idyllic planet attacks the landing party and tries to destroy the ship.

Up until now Star Trek has been doing pretty well, but here they finally stumble. On the face of it this episode isn't badly done. The performances are mostly there. Scotty is back in character and his previous professional self. And we get a treat in seeing Yeoman Martha Landon kick some native ass in hand-to-hand.

But this episode has quite a few elements that will serve as cliches to caricature TOS: the ship threatened by a planetary machine, Scotty trying to fix it, a native population that Kirk has to destabilize by destroying the machine to save his ship. Additionally the story is set on a soundstage that made me think they borrowed the set from Gilligan's Island. Too bad they couldn't have shot on-location to lend the story more visual appeal. It's very much a paint-by-number type story with a few decent moments thrown in, but nothing special.

For me there's a big unaddressed question here: who orchestrated this whole scenario? Obviously the natives didn't do it. But this is totally overlooked in the episode. Watching this so recently I'm reminded of the first season Stargate: SG-1 episode "Brief Candle" where they find a primitive culture who cannot leave the environs of their village and live only 100 days. SG-1 learns that the natives are swarming with nanotech in their system and that they're likely the descendants of an experiment orchestrated by some ancient Ga'ould posing as yet another god. All this becomes evident when Jack O'Neill becomes infected by the local nanotech and the others search for a cure. In the end SG-1 effectively destroys the natives stone "god" so O'Neill and all the natives can be free to live normally. No Prime Directive here, but it's essentially the same as TOS' "The Apple." But what it does illustrate is that a little thoughtful rewriting can go a long way.

While Stargate's "Brief Candle" is nothing awesome I do think it's better than TOS' "The Apple."

 

[BillJ]

“The Apple” **

A seemingly idyllic planet attacks the landing party and tries to destroy the ship.

Seems about right.

 

[Tallguy]

I'm not a HUGE fan of The Apple, but you rated it lower that Catspaw? Wow.

But this episode has quite a few elements that will serve as cliches to caricature TOS: the ship threatened by a planetary machine, Scotty trying to fix it, a native population that Kirk has to destabilize by destroying the machine to save his ship.

Much of that description also fits Who Mourns.

I can't describe this episode as "forgettable" (I distinctly being a little freaked out by the first red-shit death when I was seven) but it's not one I love to go back to. Although the Spock v. McCoy ending is worth the price of admission.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Everyone seems to forget about this tidbit in the teaser...

KIRK: Well, the last scout ship reported some pretty strange sensor readings. Starfleet wants it investigated and the inhabitants contacted. We do what we're told.

No Prime Directive issue, since he was ordered by Starfleet to contact the natives. If they'd stumbled across the planet on their own, it'd be a different story.

 

[Warped9]

“Mirror, Mirror” *****

Kirk and the landing party find themselves materialized in an alternate universe.

After a serious case of stubbed toe in "The Apple" Star Trek really bats it out of the park with this outing. Pretty much everything is note perfect and we have a compelling situation for our heroes to escape.

I like how Sulu and Uhura are given some fun stuff to do here. The Mirror Universe Spock is cool. But Shatner really steals it here as he shows Kirk really is a quick study and swiftly learns to navigate the situation he finds himself in here. His counterpart is evidently a clever schemer in the Mirror Universe, but our Kirk beats him in intelligence as he baffles everyone around him. This episode really highlights why we admire and really like Captain Kirk---he's da man.

This is so good that it's a shame they couldn't afford to make a few extra set and costume changes. Kirk, Spock and Uhura get most of the attention costume wise while everyone else makes do with what can be scrounged together. It also would have been nice if the 11ft. filming miniature could have been dressed up just a bit differently (but not permanently) to illustrate that it wasn't our beloved Enterprise.

DS9 will later revisit the Mirror Universe in three subsequent episodes, but they never came close to matching the calibre of this one.

 

[GNDN]

I have to wonder, how established was the television conceit of the "evil twin with a beard/goatee" before this episode?

"Mirror, Mirror" is truly great in that it not only set's up this wonderful alternate universe, but also populates it with fully realized, complex characters. Especially Spock, who is forced to apply his reasoning and logic to the circumstances, and not be a mere pirate.

 

[Hambone]

It also would have been nice if the 11ft. filming miniature could have been dressed up just a bit differently (but not permanently) to illustrate that it wasn't our beloved Enterprise.

I thought the MU Enterprise was the 3-foot filming model (with spikes on the nacelle tips, the "high" bridge, large deflector dish).

 

[Gepard]

That's not the 3-footer, that's the 11-footer in it's "The Cage/Where No Man Has Gone Before" configuration. As I recall, it's all stock footage from before the production team modified it into the one we know and love.

 

[Tallguy]

That's not the 3-footer, that's the 11-footer in it's "The Cage/Where No Man Has Gone Before" configuration. As I recall, it's all stock footage from before the production team modified it into the one we know and love.

Well the 11 footer in it's WNHGB form showed up a LOT (it closed out most shows), so it is also the one we all know and love.

It's also (if I recall) the only time they showed her with the reversed decals that they planned on using because they only finished her right side.

 

[Forbin]

Barbara Luna. *sigh*

 

[RAMA]

For the most part, I found no fault with DM's new effects, except that stupid X-Wing-like strafing run down the length of the planet killer. I thought that looked, well, stupid.

I just looked at the FX reel clips..I see no SW style strafing run. I see a starship that is avoiding a weapons port by attacking the length of the ship, but in no way, other than possibly one rocking motion that it makes atmosphere style maneuvers.

RAMA

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I saw an X-Wing style strafing run, too. And that was for the most part the abomination.

Then, again, when I think of such a thing, I am thinking of Star Wars (1977) unremastered.

 

[Tallguy]

For the most part, I found no fault with DM's new effects, except that stupid X-Wing-like strafing run down the length of the planet killer. I thought that looked, well, stupid.

I just looked at the FX reel clips..I see no SW style strafing run. I see a starship that is avoiding a weapons port by attacking the length of the ship, but in no way, other than possibly one rocking motion that it makes atmosphere style maneuvers.

RAMA

I see the shot you're talking about. If you want to see Star Wars, you can see Star Wars. It's close combat with a visual sense of speed. I'd have done it much the same way. I might have even done it with the Enterprise larger in frame and CLOSE to the DM. (Hey, why didn't the two Fed ships just get in close on the tail and STAY there?)

But given Decker's intent to not be "too far away" I thought the shot made sense. I'd have done it much the same way. I might have even done it with the Enterprise larger in frame and CLOSER to the DM. (How often do you get to see a starship speeding over the "ground"?)

(Hey, why didn't the two Fed ships just get in close on the tail and STAY there?)

I just re-watched both D. Doc's DM and the TOS-R and they're both actually pretty good. I think Doc's looks a lot more cinematic while at the same time looking more TOS.

 

[RAMA]

“The Apple” **

A seemingly idyllic planet attacks the landing party and tries to destroy the ship.

Up until now Star Trek has been doing pretty well, but here they finally stumble. On the face of it this episode isn't badly done. The performances are mostly there. Scotty is back in character and his previous professional self. And we get a treat in seeing Yeoman Martha Landon kick some native ass in hand-to-hand.

But this episode has quite a few elements that will serve as cliches to caricature TOS: the ship threatened by a planetary machine, Scotty trying to fix it, a native population that Kirk has to destabilize by destroying the machine to save his ship. Additionally the story is set on a soundstage that made me think they borrowed the set from Gilligan's Island. Too bad they couldn't have shot on-location to lend the story more visual appeal. It's very much a paint-by-number type story with a few decent moments thrown in, but nothing special.

For me there's a big unaddressed question here: who orchestrated this whole scenario? Obviously the natives didn't do it. But this is totally overlooked in the episode. Watching this so recently I'm reminded of the first season Stargate: SG-1 episode "Brief Candle" where they find a primitive culture who cannot leave the environs of their village and live only 100 days. SG-1 learns that the natives are swarming with nanotech in their system and that they're likely the descendants of an experiment orchestrated by some ancient Ga'ould posing as yet another god. All this becomes evident when Jack O'Neill becomes infected by the local nanotech and the others search for a cure. In the end SG-1 effectively destroys the natives stone "god" so O'Neill and all the natives can be free to live normally. No Prime Directive here, but it's essentially the same as TOS' "The Apple." But what it does illustrate is that a little thoughtful rewriting can go a long way.

While Stargate's "Brief Candle" is nothing awesome I do think it's better than TOS' "The Apple."

One of the most egregious PD tales. Kirk basically ignores it and literally plays God, completely transforming a pre-warp civilization that basically worked for everyone and reached homeostasis. Would I or most ST fans like this type of world? Well no, but it's not our choice to make. Kirk again fights a god and a machine, never once taking into account the machine is a product of intelligent, targeted engineering, and it got pretty tedious by this point. *1/2

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

Everyone seems to forget about this tidbit in the teaser...

KIRK: Well, the last scout ship reported some pretty strange sensor readings. Starfleet wants it investigated and the inhabitants contacted. We do what we're told.

No Prime Directive issue, since he was ordered by Starfleet to contact the natives. If they'd stumbled across the planet on their own, it'd be a different story.

Um Ok, so Starfleet broke the Prime Directive. Does it make a difference if the captain of an Aegis cruiser makes the call or President Bush, Oliver North, Dick Cheney? They can all be complicit.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

“Mirror, Mirror” *****

Kirk and the landing party find themselves materialized in an alternate universe.

After a serious case of stubbed toe in "The Apple" Star Trek really bats it out of the park with this outing. Pretty much everything is note perfect and we have a compelling situation for our heroes to escape.

I like how Sulu and Uhura are given some fun stuff to do here. The Mirror Universe Spock is cool. But Shatner really steals it here as he shows Kirk really is a quick study and swiftly learns to navigate the situation he finds himself in here. His counterpart is evidently a clever schemer in the Mirror Universe, but our Kirk beats him in intelligence as he baffles everyone around him. This episode really highlights why we admire and really like Captain Kirk---he's da man.

This is so good that it's a shame they couldn't afford to make a few extra set and costume changes. Kirk, Spock and Uhura get most of the attention costume wise while everyone else makes do with what can be scrounged together. It also would have been nice if the 11ft. filming miniature could have been dressed up just a bit differently (but not permanently) to illustrate that it wasn't our beloved Enterprise.

DS9 will later revisit the Mirror Universe in three subsequent episodes, but they never came close to matching the calibre of this one.

The one thing that makes this rise above the well-performed "pirate" ship stye antics is the philosophical underpinnings of the latter half and specifically the end of the episode. There was one good DS9 follow up to this (followed by several far lesser entries) and one good ENT 2-parter, but they all focused on the surface issues...none followed up on the issues raised by Spock. That's why no other Mirror Universe ep will likely ever be as good as the original. *****

RAMA