At first I was going to say I wouldn't even know where to begin to fix NEM. But swapping Shinzon with Sela is a great place to start and it would have transformed that screenplay.
I honestly don't have any significant problems with GEN or FC.
Revising the TNG films?
- Thread starter dswynne1
- Start date
I honestly don't have any significant problems with GEN or FC.
Generations would have been so much better if they'd had just found a way to transport Kirk into picards time instead of the nexus and not killed him. Or not used the TOS cast at all.
I've never had a problem with Shinzon, or the clone storyline. I do feel that Tom Hardy was wrong for the role. A different actor who had a closer physical resemblance to Steward would have helped, and lose the Shinzon being bald thing.
Make the relationship betwween Shinzon and the Romulan military more of a balance, instead of Shinzon being in a superior position.
And while retaining B4, make him more "normal" in terms of intelligence.
Make the relationship betwween Shinzon and the Romulan military more of a balance, instead of Shinzon being in a superior position.
And while retaining B4, make him more "normal" in terms of intelligence.
Ha, it's funny that is your suggestion, because honestly the stuff with the TOS crew and Kirk (even Kirk's death) are what I like most about that movie. I was fine with the Nexus and Kirk's death. I like that Guinan had a connection to it, and only would've liked her to have a more central role in the film.
I did enjoy the enterprise b stuff, but once it was pointed out to me that scotty and chekhovs lines were written for other members it sticks out like a sore thumb. It's the nexus I have a problem with. It was just too messy a plot point. I do like generations though. It's the only film I've ever seen four times at the cinema. It's a much better film than insurrection.
Oh it's so much better than Insurrection. Insurrection is absolutely the most forgettable of the Trek films, and in a way that's worse to me than being a bad film. Like, Insurrection is a better film than FF or NEM, but god, I can't think about Insurrection without boring myself. At least FF and NEM have some distinction. FF in particular I consider a beautiful failure.
The thing is, I can watch insurrection and reasonably enjoy it on it's own terms, but I remember when I saw it for the first time and I found myself just waiting for some spectacle and excitement, and it just... never came, it was all so small scale and bland. The cast are reasonably on form but that's about it. The special effects are pretty shoddy too. Generations for all it's faults was so much more cinematic and remains to this day a visually spectacular film compared to a film that was two steps on in the series, which is unforgivable.
I watched GEN a couple months ago and I was amazed at how well the Enterprise-D saucer crash holds up. Still looks good, and the scene is thrilling.
As I read my post here, it occurs to me that I may have gone a bit farther than "tweaking"... So apologies if I violated the original concept. Feel free to disregard my post.
---
Generations:
I think this movie suffers from too much going on. I'd want to see it focused on two main threads: the journeys of Picard and Soran. I would get rid of the entire Enterprise-B and Nexus nonsense and have Captain Kirk introduced as a hologram -- in a way similar to how Diane Carey handled it in her novel Ship of the Line. I'd like to see some time devoted to Soran's backround and pain, and how he came to be interested in time travel... and instead of blowing up stars, he's trying to find it way to the Guardian of Forever. That device, in addition to being Soran's ticket back "home", can provide equal temptation to Picard after Robert and Rene's deaths (which should have been featured as well -- perhaps as the opening teaser), and it even provides the need for Picard to consult with Kirk.
First Contact:
I would do away with time travel entirely -- that having been the theme in Generations already (albeit indirectly) -- and tell a simple force of nature story. The Borg are coming, they're unstoppable, and our heroes are doing their best to survive. Let there be destruction and desperation and a skin-of-your-teeth kind of eventual resolution that doesn't involve shiny new white torpedoes or Action Hero Picard™ screaming in a tuxedo.
Insurrection:
I'd remove the campy nonsense. Data going mad, singing in shuttlecraft, jokes about firm breasts... This could have been a wonderfully serious story in the same vein as Who Watches the Watchers. Interesting, dramatic, thought-provoking. But lampooning the protagonists just gets drags the whole story down. So my big change is: keep the plot, change the style.
Nemesis:
I echo the sentiments of others here who suggested that using Tamalok or Sela would have been better than Shinzon. Either one would have had personal reasons to target Picard particularly (which even sets up the B4 plot more neatly -- not that I love B4, but if you have to keep it, you might as well have it make sense). I can imagine Praetor Tamalok appearing on screen saying "Remember that time I promised to display the Enterprise's broken hull in the center of the capital? Well... A promise is a promise..."
---
Generations:
I think this movie suffers from too much going on. I'd want to see it focused on two main threads: the journeys of Picard and Soran. I would get rid of the entire Enterprise-B and Nexus nonsense and have Captain Kirk introduced as a hologram -- in a way similar to how Diane Carey handled it in her novel Ship of the Line. I'd like to see some time devoted to Soran's backround and pain, and how he came to be interested in time travel... and instead of blowing up stars, he's trying to find it way to the Guardian of Forever. That device, in addition to being Soran's ticket back "home", can provide equal temptation to Picard after Robert and Rene's deaths (which should have been featured as well -- perhaps as the opening teaser), and it even provides the need for Picard to consult with Kirk.
First Contact:
I would do away with time travel entirely -- that having been the theme in Generations already (albeit indirectly) -- and tell a simple force of nature story. The Borg are coming, they're unstoppable, and our heroes are doing their best to survive. Let there be destruction and desperation and a skin-of-your-teeth kind of eventual resolution that doesn't involve shiny new white torpedoes or Action Hero Picard™ screaming in a tuxedo.
Insurrection:
I'd remove the campy nonsense. Data going mad, singing in shuttlecraft, jokes about firm breasts... This could have been a wonderfully serious story in the same vein as Who Watches the Watchers. Interesting, dramatic, thought-provoking. But lampooning the protagonists just gets drags the whole story down. So my big change is: keep the plot, change the style.
Nemesis:
I echo the sentiments of others here who suggested that using Tamalok or Sela would have been better than Shinzon. Either one would have had personal reasons to target Picard particularly (which even sets up the B4 plot more neatly -- not that I love B4, but if you have to keep it, you might as well have it make sense). I can imagine Praetor Tamalok appearing on screen saying "Remember that time I promised to display the Enterprise's broken hull in the center of the capital? Well... A promise is a promise..."
It remains a brilliant scene. Fantastic use of practical effects.
Some fans, myself included, feel that it's the "spectacle and excitement" that basically screw up the Star Trek movies.
As far as my opinion, the battle between the Enterprise E and the three Sona starships (in Insurrection) could have been completely removed and the movie's plot ine wouldn't have been affected. The Enterprise leaves orbit and we don't see it again until the collector is fired upon. Don't even have the Sona chase it.
In ST09, after Nero refuses rescue (good of Kirk to offer), just have the Enterprise leave, why fire on a ship being consumed by the red matter? They still could of had the difficult departure.
After Shinzon knocks the Enterprise out of warp, the Enterprise almost immediately damages the Scimitar and the long dragged out battle is avoided.
Look at the battle at the beginning of FC, it could have been much longer than it was, but Picard figured out the Borg cube's sweet spot relatively quickly and the movie could then advance without a protracted battle scene getting in the way.
The slow and frightening hunt for the Borg in FC was more for my taste, the crew were obviously scared shitless of the Borg.
And while we're changing things, how much would it have hurt FC for Cochrane not to have been a drunk?
Nemesis is a not entirely satisfactory combination of TWOK and TBOBW. There's a bit of franchise fatigue at play by remanufacturing the iconic stuff that they did before. The Thalaron vessel is like a borg ship; an invincible ship with earth in its sights that becomes vulnerable as the plot demands and Shinzon and the Remans vaguely look like Locutus and the Borg drones. And a bit like Kahn with Kirk, Shinzon's motivations or his purpose outside of his neurotic vendetta against Picard aren't great. And we get the set piece battle in the nebula/rift following which Spock/Data dies. That said I'm glad the matter was resolved in Romulan space rather than (a conveniently lightly defended) earth's orbit. I'm inclined to be more forgiving of this film for resisting the temptation to do that.
But I'm not opposed to Shinzon as a concept. I did accept him on sight as a kind of "Mad King" one might see in earth's history that might still be a factor in Romulan politics should peculiar circumstances prevail. A caligulan aberration shorn of reason and rationality and the kind of nutter who is usually quickly deposed. In fact, I saw it as a tip of the hat to Roman politics. Picard getting thrown and being discomforted by his thoroughly evil "twin" makes Picard ask some deeply fundamental questions about himself. Shinzon in his turn, both requires Picard alive so that he may live but must kill him to become a man in his own right. So I kind of liked that touch.
I liked Hardy's portrayal for the first part of the film. But the kind of volte face from the dinner were a genuinely inquisitive Shinzon tries to make sense of Picard to a kind of one dimensional cold blooded type driven towards nihilistic destruction seemed a bit underwhelming. The scene in the ready room is I suppose inevitable given the dynamic there but the whole Star Wars "I know there's some good in you somewhere, Shinzon" hobcobblers is still a bit hokey. So the promise in the Picard-Shinzon match up kind of fizzles out for me. But I was happy enough with the film, taken as a TNG film.
But I'm not opposed to Shinzon as a concept. I did accept him on sight as a kind of "Mad King" one might see in earth's history that might still be a factor in Romulan politics should peculiar circumstances prevail. A caligulan aberration shorn of reason and rationality and the kind of nutter who is usually quickly deposed. In fact, I saw it as a tip of the hat to Roman politics. Picard getting thrown and being discomforted by his thoroughly evil "twin" makes Picard ask some deeply fundamental questions about himself. Shinzon in his turn, both requires Picard alive so that he may live but must kill him to become a man in his own right. So I kind of liked that touch.
I liked Hardy's portrayal for the first part of the film. But the kind of volte face from the dinner were a genuinely inquisitive Shinzon tries to make sense of Picard to a kind of one dimensional cold blooded type driven towards nihilistic destruction seemed a bit underwhelming. The scene in the ready room is I suppose inevitable given the dynamic there but the whole Star Wars "I know there's some good in you somewhere, Shinzon" hobcobblers is still a bit hokey. So the promise in the Picard-Shinzon match up kind of fizzles out for me. But I was happy enough with the film, taken as a TNG film.
Last edited:
I respectfully disagree, Star Trek is a sci-fi adventure franchise, and I'm of the opinion that it needs a bit of spectacle, especially for it's big screen outings, some of the battles you mention are among my favourite scenes in the movie franchise. Of course trek works best on TV where it came from, but the movies need a bit of eye candy to differentiate them and justify their place on the big screen. As long as the rest of the film has the requisite trek elements to it then it's all gravy as far as I'm concerned.
Glenn Corbett died in 1993 at the age of 59 from lung cancer. STFC was filmed in 1996. James Cromwell was 56 when he played the part of Cochrane. Google is your friend.
He made a pretty good G'Kar too.
I would sack Generations and have All Good Things... be Star Trek VII.
I'd leave First Contact alone.
Instead of Insurrection, I would have done a Dominion War story using the TNG characters. I understand why the TNG characters never popped up in DS9 during the war, but the Enterprise-E was the flagship, so I'm sure she had some battles in the Dominion War.
Instead of Nemesis, I would have done a Q movie. It seemed fitting to have that character in included in TNG's final chapter. "The trial of mankind... concludes..."
I'd leave First Contact alone.
Instead of Insurrection, I would have done a Dominion War story using the TNG characters. I understand why the TNG characters never popped up in DS9 during the war, but the Enterprise-E was the flagship, so I'm sure she had some battles in the Dominion War.
Instead of Nemesis, I would have done a Q movie. It seemed fitting to have that character in included in TNG's final chapter. "The trial of mankind... concludes..."
Agree with everything here bar Nemesis - Q would have been in your 'All good things' movie, so I would have still gone with a Romulan story for Nemesis. You're right though, an All Good Things movie would have been an epic movie, it was an epic episode after all, and the Dominion War (at least as a backdrop to the story) would have been so much more preferable to the dreadful Insurrection. What a missed opportunity the TNG films were.
All of them are imperfect. Instead of listing everything, I'll just bring up a few for each:
Generations:
STFC:
Generations:
- The Nexus needed to be ditched, it created too many plot contradictions
- Kirk's death is ok, lots of movies end the way Generations did, but I preferred the Beyond ending scene if it was going to wind up in fisticuffs, instead of the wild west planet.
- Ditch the Data emotion chip plot.
STFC:
- The Earth scenes were the weakest part of the movie.
- I liked Cochrane as a character idea but he was possibly a little too overplayed as loser. They make up for this eventually.
- Needed more of a budget
- The battle scene with the Borg cube was mostly disappointing
- While not a bad movie overall, this just needed bigger stakes while the Dominion War was going on. More urgency. More scale.
- B4 and no mention of Lore??
- The Romulans flip flopped so much in this movie I almost had whiplash.
- The middle of the movie was badly paced.
- Picard's clone? Just make Shinzon a Reman.
Yeah, after I wrote that I realized it would mean a double dose of Q - which technically wouldn't be a bad thing, but not plausible. It would have been poetic to have Q be in the final film, but I'd rather just have All Good Things... be Star Trek VII.
Similar threads
