Return of the Prequel Hatred Poll... (Better...!!)

[Alejandro]

I actually find TPM most enjoyable. I think Lucas put a lot more effort into the script than he did with the other two and was a little surprised when it bombed.

I know what you meant. it bombed with the critics and most part of the fans.

But TPM is the most enjoyable of the three prequels movie to me. Better visual effects, better designs of ships (Naboo starfighter looks awesome) and characters (Sebulba, Watto, battle droids for example).
Also we have a cool villain (Darth maul) and pod race.

 

[The Boss]

Qui-gon is my favorite Jedi! I like TPM a lot.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Again, surface level. But, it lacks the character compulsion from knowing the character and the intent. His ideological ambiguity does not contribute to investment in the conflict.

I'm still unclear why you insist that the Count Dooku fights are lacking because we don't understand the intent of the character and yet cite Darth Maul as a good example. Darth Maul, at least as portrayed in The Phantom Menace, had practically zero character development. He was just a menacing badass. The only insight we get to his motivations (in fact, just about his only line, period) is "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge." Huh? Revenge for what? Count Dooku at least conveys a lot through the subtext of Christopher Lee's performance.

I actually find TPM most enjoyable. I think Lucas put a lot more effort into the script than he did with the other two and was a little surprised when it bombed.

"Bombed" is hardly an accurate or appropriate term in this case. In fact, financially, The Phantom Menace was the 2nd most successful of the 6 Lucas films. I think Lucas was surprised by how thoroughly the film was savaged by fans & critics, but that's very different from "bombing."

Still better than the new ones at least. Especially TLJ. That movie committed the greatest crime of being boring.

Agreed. While there's a lot that I like about The Last Jedi, I think it has the worst pacing and is the only one in the entire series that doesn't see improvement upon repeat viewings. In fact, I think it kinda gets worse.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm still unclear why you insist that the Count Dooku fights are lacking because we don't understand the intent of the character and yet cite Darth Maul as a good example. Darth Maul, at least as portrayed in The Phantom Menace, had practically zero character development. He was just a menacing badass. The only insight we get to his motivations (in fact, just about his only line, period) is "At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have revenge." Huh? Revenge for what? Count Dooku at least conveys a lot through the subtext of Christopher Lee's performance.

What subtext are you specifically referring too? I agree that Maul did not have character development, but he was the "black hat" of the film, the bad wizard against the good. Did we need to know more? Sure, especially the whole revenge thing. But, why Dooku is fighting against the Jedi is left ambiguous as best.

Now, I highly encourage anyone to read the ROTS novel for better insight in to Dooku, one of the great values of the book. However, as presented on screen? Dooku turned on the Republic? He was once a Jedi who was thought to not be able to assassinate anyone, yet is demonstrated to be exactly that. He attempts to persuade Obi-Wan out of sentiment for Qui-Gon only to attempt to kill him several times.

Maul was a menacing badass. Dooku an aloof one. You decide which you prefer.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

I like both of them, Darth Maul and Count Dooku. And Count Dooku's ambiguity does not at all diminish my enjoyment for how stylishly his duel with Anakin Skywalker is presented in Attack of the Clones.

 

[fireproof78]

I like both of them, Darth Maul and Count Dooku. And Count Dooku's ambiguity does not at all diminish my enjoyment for how stylishly his duel with Anakin Skywalker is presented in Attack of the Clones.

I don't disagree but has nothing to do with his character's ambiguity or portrayal or lack of motivation.

It's a nothing part saved largely by Lee's performance.

 

[LJones41]

Maul was a menacing badass. Dooku an aloof one. You decide which you prefer.

Dooku. He's more believable as Palpatine's leader of the Separatists. Maul was nothing more than an enforcer to me, who looked "cool".

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I'm a little lost here. What exactly is ambiguous about Dooku?

He's a fallen Jedi, former pupil and Padawan of Yoda who at some point left the Jedi Order and joined the Sith. Until replaced by Darth Vader, Darth (Lord) Tyranus, aka Count Dooku, was the sole apprentice of Darth Sidious under the Rule of Two. We know all of this with reasonable clarity by the end of AOTC, when Dooku reports to Sidious and is revealed to be Tyranus, the person Jango Fett claimed to have recruited him as the clone trooper prototype.

Granted, we don't know why Dooku left the Jedi Order, but we know what Tyranus is as well as we know what Sidious is. Don't we?

 

[fireproof78]

His motivation is what is ambiguous to me. I understand all of the events as listed but I don't know the why. All we know is he is manipulating the Republic and the conflict. To what end? How is he served by this?

Say what you want about Maul (and many will) but I at least understood that he wanted to destroy the Jedi. Surface level perhaps, but I understood it.

With Dooku I pretty much had to study all about him via books in order to have a better grasp.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Whatever objective the Sith had regarding the fate of the Jedi, whether it was some level of revenge or to destroy them all, utterly and forever, as a Sith and apprentice of Sidious, Tyranus sought that same objective, same as Maul.

 

[fireproof78]

Whatever objective the Sith had regarding the fate of the Jedi, whether it was some level of revenge or to destroy them all, utterly and forever, as a Sith and apprentice of Sidious, Tyranus sought that same objective, same as Maul.

That was never my impression of Tyranus. He wanted to overthrow the Republic but for what purpose is unclear. His motivation is muddled, at best.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

That was never my impression of Tyranus. He wanted to overthrow the Republic but for what purpose is unclear. His motivation is muddled, at best.

He was a good liar, but the idea that he wasn't fully aware that he was acting in his capacity as Separatist leader as one cog in an overarching Sith plan is ludicrous. Tyranus seemed fully aware that one of his jobs was to extract the Death Star plans from the Geonosians before their planet got trashed. I do agree that it is a weakness of the PT, especially AOTC but also the beginning of ROTS, not to show us more of the picture, including what sort of endgame Dooku imagined was coming. Clearly, Sidious' betrayal caught Dooku off guard.

I think a more glaring weakness in the story, though, is Sifo-Dyas. He's basically only name-dropped. Obi-Wan's heard of him (we haven't). He's the one who placed the order for the clone army, so he's involved or been caught up in the Sith machinations somehow. The look on Yoda's face tell us there's something dark in his history, but there is zero elaboration on it. TIE-IN MONEY FLOW, ACTIVATE!

 

[fireproof78]

He was a good liar, but the idea that he wasn't fully aware that he was acting in his capacity as Separatist leader as one cog in an overarching Sith plan is ludicrous. Tyranus seemed fully aware that one of his jobs was to extract the Death Star plans from the Geonosians before their planet got trashed. I do agree that it is a weakness of the PT, especially AOTC but also the beginning of ROTS, not to show us more of the picture, including what sort of endgame Dooku imagined was coming. Clearly, Sidious' betrayal caught Dooku off guard.

This is why I love the ROTS novel so much. It delves in to Dooku's perspective so much more, including the fact that he is a speciest, a human supremacist, and seeks to use the Clone Wars to strip the major alien powers of their wealth and tech (such as the Death Star-rewatch that scene with that in mind and catch some sinister undertones). Dooku planned on leading an Army of the Sith, Force users to enforce the Empire of Man's will.

Dooku is far and away the more interesting character than Maul but you have to hunt for it.

 

[USS Firefly]

This is why I love the ROTS novel so much.

Me too, i think it's one of the best starwars novel

 

[Ithekro]

The opening chapters of ROTS novel are really good. It gives so much context, not only to the civilians idea of how the war is going, but how much the people believe in the Jedi (especially the children). Than it gives us a good view of the Kenobi-Skywalker dynamic/friendship. And finally it gives us a very good view of Dooku's views, motives, and probably the best description of a lightsaber duel in print. That's the lightsaber duel I wanted to see. Even when the point of view switches to Anakin, it still works.

 

[fireproof78]

probably the best description of a lightsaber duel in print.

Not to snip but this point cannot be overstated. I want to see that duel come to life so badly because of all the dynamics going on. I have reread that duel multiple times just because I think it is so well done.

 

[USS Firefly]

Not to snip but this point cannot be overstated. I want to see that duel come to life so badly because of all the dynamics going on. I have reread that duel multiple times just because I think it is so well done.

Me too and the fight between Sidious and the Jedi masters