Retroactive justification for Riker's friction towards Jellico?

[suarezguy]

Lots of folks here can't seem to see past their affection for these characters to recognize that Riker was terribly written after "The Best of Both Worlds." This is just one instance of that awful writing. Everyone knew and acknowledged it, even Frakes. The only way to save the character was to let him leave the ship and have Frakes appear in occasional episodes while directing or kill him off in season four and replace him with Thomas Riker.

Don't think it's at all awful writing to have a character decide he doesn't need to be captain right now, prefers continuing as second in command to continue being with his current crew.

This is exactly why I dislike the crew so much in this episode. Jellico was right, he just wasn't nice. If the crew cannot or does not want to see that then maybe they're not that great.

They were a bit openly resentful but Riker was the only one who was outright defiant/insubordinate, the rest still worked their best with/for him.

 

[Ragitsu]

I've never had issues with the fact that he made the crew work extra-hard, sometimes a captain's got to do that.

If Geordi was any indication, the crew - a reminder: the crew of the flagship of The Federation - was not averse to applying elbow grease.

LAFORGE: Yeah, well, I don't mind making changes and I don't mind hard work

It was how Jellico went about arranging the crew that caused unnecessary difficulty; the man made suboptimal choices...which is probably why he was the Captain of The Cairo.

 

[flandry84]

Well Jellico did bring along and display his granddaughters(?) paintings so maybe he had intentions to make his temporary transfer more permanent.
Forcing Riker out might have been the ultimate goal.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

They were a bit openly resentful but Riker was the only one who was outright defiant/insubordinate, the rest still worked their best with/for him.

Only after several days of Jellico disrespecting and dismissing him at every turn, while he was dangerously overworking the Engineering Department, and possibly other sections as well.

The first time Riker was actually defiant/insubordinate was when he insisted that Starfleet acknowledge that Picard was officially acknowledged by Starfleet and even then only the manner of his objectives were out of line, not the point itself.

 

[Oddish]

Jellico did bring along and display his granddaughters(?) paintings so maybe he had intentions to make his temporary transfer more permanent.

It was his son, actually. And I think that more likely, he left his family on the Cairo because he believed that he was taking Enterprise into battle. Maybe his son gave him the drawing as he was leaving.

It's never stated, but it would have made sense for all children and support staff on Enterprise to go to the Cairo as well. No reason to endanger innocents.

Forcing Riker out might have been the ultimate goal.

If it was, it would have been for his own good. Riker gets his stalled career jump-started, and Data gets the red uniform and commander pips he deserves.

The first time Riker was actually defiant/insubordinate was when he insisted that Starfleet acknowledge that Picard was officially acknowledged by Starfleet and even then only the manner of his objectives were out of line, not the point itself.

I believe that Jellico was right. Acknowledging Picard wasn't his call or Riker's; it was either Necheyev's or Starfleet Command's. And he should have reminded Riker of that. But wrong or not, if Riker believed Jellico staying silent was a mistake, it was his duty to point it out.

 

[fireproof78]

Don't think it's at all awful writing to have a character decide he doesn't need to be captain right now, prefers continuing as second in command to continue being with his current crew.

I mean...sort of? Riker's whole goal and reason to be, and even part of his back and forth with Troi during her engagement, was that he wanted to be a starship captain, more than anything else.

Now, obviously individuals can change, and determine they'd rather stay at a certain level, but the point is this is an established driving force in Riker's life and then it's dropped. It's going to stand out.

 

[flandry84]

Yeah,I haven’t seen those episodes in ages.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I believe that Jellico was right. Acknowledging Picard wasn't his call or Riker's; it was either Necheyev's or Starfleet Command's. And he should have reminded Riker of that. But wrong or not, if Riker believed Jellico staying silent was a mistake, it was his duty to point it out.

Which is why while Jellico was arguably right to ignore Riker's "demand" and I'd even go for a formal reprimand for his insubordinate way of presenting his opinion, relieving him of duty was inappropriate and over-the-top, particularly given that Jellico should have been violating enough guidelines and regulations to warrant that for himself if he didn't have Necheyev's full support.

 

[Oddish]

Which is why while Jellico was arguably right to ignore Riker's "demand" and I'd even go for a formal reprimand for his insubordinate way of presenting his opinion, relieving him of duty was inappropriate and over-the-top, particularly given that Jellico should have been violating enough guidelines and regulations to warrant that for himself if he didn't have Necheyev's full support.

He may have relieved him so that he wouldn't have to reprimand him, which would make the matter public. He recognized that he couldn't work with Riker, and decided to sub in someone he could work with (Data).

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

He may have relieved him so that he wouldn't have to reprimand him, which would make the matter public.

You do realise the next thing that happens after "being relieved from duty" for a senior officer like Riker who is in the bad books of a flag officer (Necheyev) unless it's reversed* is being dismissed from the service right or forced into retirement, right? That's very public and final.

OTOH, Riker already has a documented history of questioning his commanding officers, so another similar reprimand isn't going to make that much of a difference to his prospects or make all that many waves in public.

*Which happened with main characters on several occasions.

 

[Ragitsu]

It does not hurt that he was correct more often than not (e.g., unnamed Captain DeSoto incident, "Lonely Among Us" and "Allegiance").

 

[Oddish]

And Jellico might have a reputation among the Admiralty. As in, "he's abrasive and difficult to work with, but when there's fighting to be done he has no equal". It's easy to see why he wound up promoted to Admiral when the Federation was at war.

 

[Mojochi]

Jellico was more or less right about the mission, about what needed to done... it's just the how it should have been done that he fell down on.

That's the issue. No one there, Including the audience, can actually say that his "how" it should be done wasn't also "what" needed to be done, given the time sensitive conditions & precarious variables. That's WHY there's a chain of command. They don't always get the luxury of getting to know why. They should know that without having to be handheld about it. Hell, the Lower Decks junior officers do a better job figuring out that very thing in their episode. STFU about it Sam Lavelle... You don't always get to know. So he did, unlike Riker, who kept pushing, & undermining authority, & Troi egging him on about it, until it went too far.

Your comparison to Picard in the finale isn't entirely relevant IMHO, because even though they didn't know him, & were as of yet unsure of his ways, he DID know them, intimately. He knew the right things to say, to sway them. Jellico doesn't know any of those people, or WTF they'd personally respond to.

I instead compare it to the Sheliak situation, where Picard has to just ask the impossible, and they just have to deal with it, without some grand oration. It works there, because Picard's in charge & Riker isn't a key player, & the people being put upon already have a trusting relationship with Picard.

 

[Oddish]

That's the issue. No one there, Including the audience, can actually say that his "how" it should be done wasn't also "what" needed to be done, given the time sensitive conditions & precarious variables.

Even a lower decker understands that if affection head says an action will cause serious personnel problems, you don't do it. Especially on the eve of battle, when the crew has to be running on all cylinders.

So he did, unlike Riker, who kept pushing, & undermining authority, & Troi egging him on about it, until it went too far.

Riker was wrong about acknowledging Picard. That doesn't change his duty to point out what he saw as a mistake on Jellico's part. Especially because Jellico had already made a significant misjudgement previously.

Jellico doesn't know any of those people, or WTF they'd personally respond to.

Which is the problem, isn't it? He doesn't know the crew, and he refuses to heed the advice provided by Riker, who does.

 

[Takeru]

... and he refuses to heed the advice provided by Riker, ...

That's his prerogative as the CO and not a problem. It's the crews job to run the ship as Jellico wants not the other way around.
He knew the details of the mission, the others did not so their job was to STFU and do what they were told. Riker was an embarrassment and should have been kicked out of starfleet, the only thing that saved him was Jonathan Frakes status as a series regular.

 

[Set Harth]

Affection head???

 

[Mojochi]

Which is the problem, isn't it? He doesn't know the crew, and he refuses to heed the advice provided by Riker, who does.

Riker IS one of those people he doesn't have a standing relationship with though. The mission is priority. Rank & authority is the structure upon which they must rely. The top doesn't have to yield to subordinates, over matters of perspective & personality. It's the opposite, for the mission's sake.

I also wouldn't agree Jellico had made any "significant misjudgment previously". Everything, by my recollection, was set in motion the way he likely intended, including preliminary orders that serve both the mission & to gauge what kind of interaction the crew will pose.

 

[Oddish]

That's his prerogative as the CO and not a problem. It's the crews job to run the ship as Jellico wants not the other way around.

There were hundreds of people on the Enterprise. And if the cobbled together MESS that Delta Shift undoubtedly was had been on duty when combat began, they might have been blasted to ions. So yeah, I think Jellico should have listened to Riker and his section heads, who knew more about the Enterprise than he did.

 

[DonIago]

There were hundreds of people on the Enterprise. And if the cobbled together MESS that Delta Shift undoubtedly was had been on duty when combat began, they might have been blasted to ions. So yeah, I think Jellico should have listened to Riker and his section heads, who knew more about the Enterprise than he did.

And yet, I don't believe the episode presents any evidence at all that the changeover to a four-shift rotation had any adverse impacts.

Which rather suggests that it went well enough in the end.

If TPTB wanted us to feel that Our Heroes were right to complain about that as much as they did, they should have shown things going amiss because of it.

 

[Paul Weaver]

He knew the details of the mission, the others did not

A critical failure. Jellico needlessly withheld information about the mission - putting the mission at risk should Jellico have been incapacitated.