Requiem for Methuselah & The Way of Eden

[2takesfrakes]

I don't by any stretch claim to be particularly well read, and I've seen probably far fewer films than most, but I can't recall seeing this sobering aspect of immortality touched on all that much. Just thinking about it, as you say...outliving every woman he ever loved, every person he's known, period...outlasting every building he's ever been in. Even the geography he's known has changed, no doubt. This man has outlived civilizations and languages! That's pretty deep to chew on...

And he's Manly enough to wear tights and glitter, too!

 

[Commishsleer]

Oh, I'm pretty sure Kirk was faking the anger when goading Flint to fight, just as much as he was faking all his infatuations (except perhaps Miramanee, but that wasn't really Kirk). After all, that'd be the culmination of what he was systematically doing: forcing a superior being into stupid old fisticuffs and killing his lovebot, thereby toppling him from his pedestal and making him see the reason of giving Kirk his rhyetalyn.

As for McCoy's speech, I think he's completely off base there (and Spock knows it well). Kirk isn't weeping over the android, whom he doesn't even mention in his self-pitying rant. He's weeping over Flint, the man he was forced to ruin. It's just that McCoy is way too heteronormative to recognize a man's self-reflective agony over another man's fate.

Timo Saloniemi

I'm pretty sure Kirk wasn't faking his anger. He thought he was defending the woman he loved. Improbable as it was to fall in love in so short a time, weirder things have happened in Star Trek.
If he was so manipulative he would have just given up Rayna to Flint.

Kirk in the end is upset for himself as he thinks he will never achieve true happiness and guilt for being a part of destroying Rayna (who in some ways didn't really exist- not quite a sentient being). I think he just feels compassion for Flint in some ways a kindred spirit.

Kirk didn't even ruin Flint. If the Enterprise hadn't visited Flint's fate would have been the same. Except he would have had one extra Rayna to play around with.

Spock isn't moved to end Kirk's misery over ruining Flint's experiment. Spock tried to hide Rayna's nature from Kirk - to spare his feelings about her. Then Kirk surprised us all by having feelings for her despite the fact that she was an android.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Ah, Timo, now you're really back!

Oh, I'm pretty sure Kirk was faking the anger when goading Flint to fight, just as much as he was faking all his infatuations (except perhaps Miramanee, but that wasn't really Kirk). After all, that'd be the culmination of what he was systematically doing: forcing a superior being into stupid old fisticuffs and killing his lovebot, thereby toppling him from his pedestal and making him see the reason of giving Kirk his rhyetalyn.

I admire the hoops you jump through in order to justify Kirk's actions during a badly written, out of character series of events. But, honestly, they are was just a badly written, out of character series of events.

As for McCoy's speech, I think he's completely off base there (and Spock knows it well). Kirk isn't weeping over the android, whom he doesn't even mention in his self-pitying rant. He's weeping over Flint, the man he was forced to ruin. It's just that McCoy is way too heteronormative to recognize a man's self-reflective agony over another man's fate.

So what you're saying is, Kirk couldn't bear to deal with the fact he ruined ONE man and that what the writer had McCoy say was totally incorrect and that Spock just let it slide and not even clue in the audience? If the writing were that subtle, this episode would be a lot better. But nope, sorry, it's all very cut and dried:

Kirk met Rayna. Kirk fell madly in love with Rayna. Kirk and Flint had a jealousy fueled fight over her. Unable to choose between two men she learned to love, Rayna popped a circuit and "died." Kirk, having (again) caused the death of some(one/thing) he loved is crushed and wishes he could forget. McCoy tells Spock that the Vulcan can't understand the wonderfulness of love and the pain associated with it. Spock demonstrates his understanding by showing compassion and erasing said pain from his friend's mind while he sleeps.

That's it. Star Trek wasn't the kind of series to have super-deeply hidden messages or stories open to interpretation. And it certainly isn't an example of "what the writer wrote wasn't really the case." It is exactly as it seems: a badly written, out of character series of events.

 

[ToddPence]

This episode is considerably enhanced by the magnificent performances of Daly and Sorel. It's one of those instances where guest stars make the episode better than the script. Daly projects an aura of world-weariness that really makes you believe he HAS lived for four millenia.

 

[gottacook]

Daly projects an aura of world-weariness that really makes you believe he HAS lived for four millenia.

Yes!

"I… am Brahms."

"…inhaled a brief fragrance… then age, death - the taste of dust…"

(No wonder Tyne Daly is great too, and always has been.)

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Realistically, Kirk is being irresponsible to get some drinks, play pool, and go dancing while his crew upstairs is about to die. There is no defending him. But I make no apologies for loving "Requiem." As with "The Lights of Zetar," it is the episode's superficial qualities that work best for me.

- For my taste, Rayna is gorgeous and cultivated. I fall for her as fast as Kirk does. They say you never forget your first fembot, but honestly I can't recall if I saw "Requiem" first or The Twilight Zone's "The Lonely" with Jean Marsh as Alicia. It doesn't matter; I love them both.

- Great use of music, especially the medley of love themes that plays over Kirk's scene with Rayna in the lab. Faux-Brahms waltz also a plus for me.

- Fun use of the 3-foot Enterprise model. I love it despite the sci-fi credibility issue it raises. I view the model as maybe a holographic projection, while Flint has the real ship suspended in a transporter pattern buffer or something. So it's still way out, but not inconceivable.

Overall it's not great art, but for an hour of TV I'll take it.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

I don't by any stretch claim to be particularly well read, and I've seen probably far fewer films than most, but I can't recall seeing this sobering aspect of immortality touched on all that much. Just thinking about it, as you say...outliving every woman he ever loved, every person he's known, period...outlasting every building he's ever been in. Even the geography he's known has changed, no doubt. This man has outlived civilizations and languages! That's pretty deep to chew on...

You might enjoy The Vampire Chronicles novels by Anne Rice, starting with Interview with the Vampire (1976). Before you roll your eyes, these books are for adults and do not belong to the starry-eyed teen-romance vampire genre, which eventually followed in Rice's massive literary wake.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

You might enjoy The Vampire Chronicles novels by Anne Rice, starting with Interview with the Vampire (1976). Before you roll your eyes, these books are for adults and do not belong to the starry-eyed teen-romance vampire genre, which eventually followed in Rice's massive literary wake.

Thanks, Zap...I'll definitely keep that in mind!

I didn't want to create the impression that I'm an illiterate lummox , but for me it's difficult to start a book or movie without knowing what I'm in for. If a movie doesn't grab me in ten minutes or so, I don't usually keep going. It's not really fair to judge that way...but I hate to invest time into something which I'll end up not liking.

Also, I find I'm not really a science-fiction fan. I like Star Trek for some reason (always have), but it never translated into pursuing other stories and ideas. I've come to realize, though, that many ideas which intrigue me aren't very often discussed in other things I read, so I've probably short-changed myself. I hope it's not too late to change!!

I've thought about this more since recently-to have something to read in bed-I've dug up my old Dan Dare books. On the one hand dated sci-fi...but on the other, intriguing ideas well and enthusiastically presented. Not to mention it's a bit more gripping than the dictionary I normally peruse!

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Oh, I'm pretty sure Kirk was faking the anger when goading Flint to fight, just as much as he was faking all his infatuations (except perhaps Miramanee, but that wasn't really Kirk). After all, that'd be the culmination of what he was systematically doing: forcing a superior being into stupid old fisticuffs and killing his lovebot, thereby toppling him from his pedestal and making him see the reason of giving Kirk his rhyetalyn.

As for McCoy's speech, I think he's completely off base there (and Spock knows it well). Kirk isn't weeping over the android, whom he doesn't even mention in his self-pitying rant. He's weeping over Flint, the man he was forced to ruin. It's just that McCoy is way too heteronormative to recognize a man's self-reflective agony over another man's fate.

Timo Saloniemi

Sorry, what? Just because he doesn't mention Rayna in his few lines before falling asleep at his desk, he's really thinking primarily about Flint? He does mention Flint's loneliness and his own, neither of which would be so cast into the foreground if not for Rayna and her demise. He's feeling sorry for himself most of all - in particular, that his own loneliness led him to be taken in, caught off guard, risking his ship and crew as a result. He himself is the "flower dying in the desert," as Rayna says (repeating Flint's earlier description of loneliness). What he wants to forget is the Jim Kirk he'd become for those few hours on the planet. I don't think his feelings for Flint enter into it at all. Flint is no longer even human in some ways because of how his own history has changed him - outliving every woman he ever loved, for example.

Okay, fellows, I'm going to solve the disagreement right here and now: Kirk is thinking of neither Rayna or Flint, and I can prove it...

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

He does mention Flint's loneliness and his own, neither of which would be so cast into the foreground if not for Rayna and her demise. He's feeling sorry for himself most of all - in particular, that his own loneliness led him to be taken in, caught off guard, risking his ship and crew as a result. He himself is the "flower dying in the desert," as Rayna says (repeating Flint's earlier description of loneliness). What he wants to forget is the Jim Kirk he'd become for those few hours on the planet. I don't think his feelings for Flint enter into it at all. Flint is no longer even human in some ways because of how his own history has changed him - outliving every woman he ever loved, for example.

Well said--and McCoy's speech to Spock was both accurate to the Kirk epilogue, and the doctor's genuine, heartfelt feeling for Spock's separation from the price of romantic feelings for a woman. It was certainly not anguish over Flint, beyond a one-off in passing.

Even as Kirk buried his face right before him, Spock could not understand the loss of Rayna (more than in a "humans are hurt by this kind of thing" way) until McCoy had to so eloquently spell it out for him---with Spock as the contrast to illustrate what a risk of the heart is.

The McCoy scene was easily his best of season three (even beyond the drama surrounding his assumed mortality in "For the World id Hollow, and I Have Touched the Sky"), and nearing the end of TOS, a solid example of the evolution of the Spock/McCoy relationship.

One can criticize the episode as much as he desires, but the McCoy speech makes the episode memorable.

.....and seeing that beautiful 3-foot Enterprise again....