Replicator Bulk Matter?

[Timo]

Realistically, given what we know of the Federation's technical abilities, they would never really need gold pressed latinum.

And, as far as we can tell, they don't use it, or any other physical currency. Except when doing this "glass beads for injuns" thing.

(However, while they use something they call "credits" for dealing with primitive cultures, they also perform transactions that involve a "price" within the UFP - Janeway specifically once bought an item from a Vulcan at a higher price than what it would have cost a civilian human. If they use abstract money within the UFP, they could just as well use physical coinage - both are fundamentally based on trust, and replication won't affect that much.)

Since replicators convert energy into matter, it would stand to reason that it is easier to replicate everyday stuff such as food, water, clothing, even spare parts.

But you could probably get a runabout only 98% right and she'd still go to warp just fine. Get a sandwich 99.723% right and you may end up giving an entire planet an instant yet gruesome death.

Certainly there are factors that make some things more difficult to replicate than others. But they are probably well beyond our understanding, as things as simple as mere complexity don't seem to correlate with the observed difficulty.

Now, replicating anti-matter for example would likely not be too practical without dedicated facilities on board.

OTOH, it's a thing that would probably justify having said facilities aboard, even if the price was an arm and a leg from each crew member.

But while shortages of energy are sometimes discussed, replication is never the answer. Then again, getting more antimatter is never the answer, either! Not even in "Deadlock" where antimatter is specifically nailed down as the sole source for the energy. Probably the most practical way around these problems then indeed fails to involve replication, but does involve other fairly complex techniques that trump simple topping up of antimatter tanks. The E-D often recovers from a mysterious near-total energy loss by the end of the episode, with nary a comment (say, "The Last Outpost" or "Night Terrors"). It's not a case of the evil aliens giving back what they took - there's some sort of an onboard recovery method involved that never gets a good description.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It has been consistently said on-screen that replicators convert energy into matter.
There is no 'bulk matter' needed to generate something.

Actually, starting with Encounter at Farpoint, replicators are more often compared to transporters, simply REARRANGING matter into new forms. They are implied as using the same process as the space vessel/lifeform, which does this trick with its own physical structure in realtime.

However, replicators also seem to have the ability to convert matter into energy

Absolutely false. The only component on the ship that can do that is the warp core, and it does that by the anihilation of matter and antimatter.

Given that fact, it's equally true that energy CANNOT be converted into matter by a reciprocal process; replicators would have to produce an equal part of antimatter for every object they replicate.

Moreover, we know starships use fusion reactors as their secondary power source and we also know that battery cells and backup power kick in when main power fails. If replicators COULD convert energy into matter, they would be several thousand times more efficient than the fusion reactors that run the impulse engines; you could power your entire starship indefinitely just by continually pouring dirt into a replicator slot.

The "convert energy into matter" business is just an artifact of imprecise language (sort of like how "global warming" doesn't cease to exist just because it's cold outside).

 

[T'Girl]

It has been consistently said on-screen that replicators convert energy into matter.

Did you have a specific quote from an episode in mind?

... and it makes sense that they would be converting pure energy into matter.

What form of energy do you see being used, electricity, heat, stored chemicals?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The E-D often recovers from a mysterious near-total energy loss by the end of the episode, with nary a comment (say, "The Last Outpost" or "Night Terrors"). It's not a case of the evil aliens giving back what they took - there's some sort of an onboard recovery method involved that never gets a good description.

In The Last Outpost it was implied that the energy drain from the T'kon planet actually STARTED off small but grew in intensity over time just by virtue of the planet's power-draining systems gaining more energy. If they had encountered the planet while it was at full power, it would have sucked them dry in seconds instead of in hours.

It isn't so a matter of TAKING energy so much as diverting it away from the ship faster than the ship can actually produce it. It isn't a practical means of collecting energy, of course, but it's probably very effective as an anti-starship weapon.

 

[Go-Captain]

Although, the Ferengi did place some value on gold early on in the TNG...

...Perhaps they were in the mistaken belief that it was being used for holding latinum?

This applies to "The Last Outpost" and the Ferengi interest in the glittering Federation items. For "The Price", the Ferengi no doubt pretended to consider gold valuable because it would be valuable to their primitive customer!

I believe it can be reinterpreted to mean the original Ferengi were actually commenting on the primitive nature of the Starfleet officers. As in, Starfleet is so primitive they still place value in gold, as indicated by the officers decorating themselves in it. In contrast, a wealthy Ferengi will decorate themselves in solid latinum and latinum plated objects. This is despite the reality, unknown to the Ferengi, that Starfleet personnel don't place value in the gold, they just like the appearance or old symbolic aspect.

However, "Who Mourns for Morn" specifically says gold pressed latinum is specifically liquid latinum inside solid gold. That's supported by the emptied pressed bars being hollow. So, it probably is something to do with gold being nonreactive.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

^ Actually I'm pretty sure that latnium is chemically amalgamated with gold somehow in a way that is relatively easy to extract; it wasn't so much that the bars were "hollow" as such, just that they disintegrated into dust when Quark banged them together too hard (they would have made a more ringy "clink" sound if they'd been infused with latinum).

Mourn spits a couple of drops of latinum into a glass and Quark remarks that "that must be a hundred bricks worth!" So latinum in concentrated form is actually EXTREMELY valuable. The reason it's pressed in gold is probably for verification purposes: a small amount of latinum alloys with a comparatively large amount of gold in such a way that a tricorder will be able to easily analyze a brick to determine its real latinum content. Harder for people to rip you off with "fake" bars of gold-pressed latinum that way.

 

[Deks]

It has been consistently said on-screen that replicators convert energy into matter.

Did you have a specific quote from an episode in mind?

Too many episodes from TNG and VOY to accurately extract, but here are some references:

Star Trek Voyager: 'Heroes and Demons'.
JANEWAY: We have to consider it a possibility. After all, the holodecks are basically an outgrowth of transporter technology, changing energy into matter and back again every time a programme is run.

ST TNG: 'Ship in a Bottle'
DATA: Perhaps we should consider the transporter system. It uses many of the same principles as the holodeck. Both, for example, are capable of converting energy into matter.

ST TNG: 'The Child'
LAFORGE: Right. See, these modules will keep the specimens alive, but it's this large containment area that's going to keep us alive. Now, I have to go and replicate this five hundred and twelve times, which means I'll have to divert power from the warp engines to the replicators for a while.

ST TNG: 'Night Terrors'
RIKER: Couldn't we replicate the elements that Tyken used?
DATA: No, sir. We no longer have the power to reproduce complex elements in the replicator. We must find a way to generate a violent energy release without using conventional means.

Furthermore, replicators were described as an outgrowth of transporter technology as well.
They all seem to operate on the same base principles.

Not once do I recall the instance of any character mentioning 'bulk matter' as a need for replicators to work.
Only energy.
Indeed, Picard went on to say they discovered that energy and matter are interchangeable.
And Voyager kept having energy issues in the early seasons which necessitated replicator rations.

In the episode 'The Cloud' Janeway mentioned something about 'rationing replicator energy'.

ST DS9: 'Visionary'
ODO: So, then I began thinking about the replicator.
SISKO: Ah. They realigned the matter-energy conversion matrix.

ST VOY: 'Night'
TORRES: The residual anti-matter is then processed in the transkinetic chamber, where it's broken down on the subatomic level.
EMCK: What about the theta radiation?
TORRES: Oh, it's absorbed by a series of radiometric converters. We recycle the energy, use it to power everything from life support to replicators.


It simply doesn't make sense that next to fusion and antimatter power generation, they would need 'bulk matter' for replicating objects.
Replicators certainly seem to have the ability to manipulating a structure of matter itself, so you could use raw matter for recycling (which is turned into energy).

... and it makes sense that they would be converting pure energy into matter.

What form of energy do you see being used, electricity, heat, stored chemicals?[/QUOTE]

Plasma most likely.
We have seen that the Warp core provides main/primary energy (or plasma in this instance) which is distributed via the EPS grid to ship systems (replicators included).

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Furthermore, replicators were described as an outgrowth of transporter technology as well.
They all seem to operate on the same base principles.

Yes, again and again we are told replicators are based on transporter technology. That necessarily implies they can't LITERALLY convert raw energy directly into matter, primarily because transporters can't actually do this. The best reference for this is in "Encounter at Farpoint":

RIKER: I didn't believe these simulations could be this real.
DATA: Much of it is real, sir. If the transporters can convert our bodies to an energy beam, then back to the original pattern again...
RIKER: Yes, of course. And these rocks and vegetation have much simpler patterns.
DATA: Correct, sir.

Suffice it to say that the "energy" replicators use to construct objects isn't stored AS energy. It's in a VERY temporary state, much like the energy in a transport buffer, but it is that "energy" that is being channeled to a particular replicator terminal the moment it is asked to make something for that person. That energy, when not in use, is stored in the form of bulk matter waiting to be broken down and reassembled in its new form.

They never specify what the bulk matter is because nobody really KNOWS exactly what it is, and they probably don't WANT to know and go out of their way not to think about it. That is to say, most of the bulk matter is the reconstituted matter of the ship's garbage, old clothes, broken tools, soiled linens, sewage, dirty diapers, used condoms and and the tears of whatever duty officer pulled replicator maintenance duty this month.

Indeed, Picard went on to say they discovered that energy and matter are interchangeable.

But they're not interchangeable. They're EQUIVALENT. The fact remains that a small amount of matter is equivalent to a very large amount of energy, so much so that it is always -- repeat, ALWAYS -- easier to store energy AS matter. This is precisely the reason why cars are powered by fuel (energy stored in the form of chemical bounds) instead of, say, tightly wound springs or flywheels. It's also the reason why your laptop batter stories energy in the form of electric potential in a dialectric cell instead of a capacitor bank that bottles up electromagnetic charges.

In Star Trek, it is the reason why starships are powered by matter-antimatter reactors regulated by dilithium crystals and not, for example, by giant replicator slots. It's also the reason why replicators consume more energy -- in fact, ALOT more energy -- than would be equivalent to the actual product they are replicating: because the energy content of the bulk matter they're reconstituting cannot actually be applied to anything useful (ship's power, weapon systems, shields, etc), and is really just an intermediate step before final object assembly.

One should also consider that less advanced starships -- Mirandas and Constellations and probably even Excelsiors -- are probably still using the old-style replicators that have been familiar to Starfleet since Kirk's time: the product is manufactured in a central location and then transferred to the food slot on a conveyor system. The more modern system probably streamlines this by putting separating the assembly from disassembly machinery: somewhere in the bowels of the Enterprise-D is a machine that can quickly dematerialize 47 kilograms of semi-solid garbage/sewage and distribute the resulting "energy" to food slots all over the ship to meet 47 simultaneous dinner orders.

It simply doesn't make sense that next to fusion and antimatter power generation, they would need 'bulk matter' for replicating objects.

Actually that makes the MOST sense of all. Fusion power alone wouldn't actually produce enough energy to produce any solid object; only a miniscule amount of the mass in a fusion reaction is converted to energy.

The math is pretty simple: 1 gram of normal matter is equivalent to about 180,000 Gigajoules of pure energy. A 180GW fusion reactor would therefore have to run at maximum capacity for 17 minutes to produce the energy equivalent of a Tylenol PM. This, assuming that the fusion reactor is 100% efficient; in the real world it's closer to 60%, which means a fusion-powered replicator could produce the equivalent of a penny about every two or three hours. That is, unless your replicator is a transporter-based system that takes 2kg of waste material and re-fashions it into 1.6kg of edible material. THEN your power consumption depends on how much energy it takes to run a relatively small transporter system. That's still quite a lot, but it's noehwere near 180 million gigawatts per kilogram.

What about the warp core? Consider this is matter-energy equivalence: if your warp core is 100% efficient (it isn't) then your replicators could produce EXACTLY as much solid material as the warp core consumes fuel per second. So if your warp core burns 1kg of mater and 1kg of antimatter per second, your replicators can replicate about 2kg of material during the second time... and while that replicator is operating, THE ENTIRE SHIP completely looses power. But the warp core isn't that efficient; it's closer to 80%, ridiculously high for a realistic design, but that still means that it's produces about 300 terawatts for a kilogram of matter and antimatter combined. At that output, if any THREE people on the ship decide to use the replicators at the same time, their foodslots would draw the total output of the warp core just to fill their dinner orders. And all of this ignores the fact that the replicator system ITSELF, being based on transporter tech, consumes a huge amount of energy that isn't part of the finished product. Moreover, with that kind of power consumption, a single food replicator would consume more power per second than a themonuclear warhead. If your food slot operates at 99.9% efficiency -- a thermodynamic impossibility -- the resulting waste heat would incinerate half the ship.

All of this means that even if it was POSSIBLE to convert pure energy directly into matter -- and even in Star Trek, it isn't -- it would STILL be more practical to simply re-pattern their waste products and not have to put such huge loads on their power systems just to feed the crew. Matter-energy equivalence works out mathematically in such a way that you can ALWAYS store a larger amount of matter than you can store energy, and matter, unlike energy, doesn't experience entropy losses, which means you can basically store it FOREVER.

 

[Go-Captain]

Too many episodes from TNG and VOY to accurately extract, but here are some references:

Star Trek Voyager: 'Heroes and Demons'.
JANEWAY: We have to consider it a possibility. After all, the holodecks are basically an outgrowth of transporter technology, changing energy into matter and back again every time a programme is run.

ST TNG: 'Ship in a Bottle'
DATA: Perhaps we should consider the transporter system. It uses many of the same principles as the holodeck. Both, for example, are capable of converting energy into matter.

ST TNG: 'The Child'
LAFORGE: Right. See, these modules will keep the specimens alive, but it's this large containment area that's going to keep us alive. Now, I have to go and replicate this five hundred and twelve times, which means I'll have to divert power from the warp engines to the replicators for a while.

ST TNG: 'Night Terrors'
RIKER: Couldn't we replicate the elements that Tyken used?
DATA: No, sir. We no longer have the power to reproduce complex elements in the replicator. We must find a way to generate a violent energy release without using conventional means.

Furthermore, replicators were described as an outgrowth of transporter technology as well.
They all seem to operate on the same base principles.

Not once do I recall the instance of any character mentioning 'bulk matter' as a need for replicators to work.
Only energy.
Indeed, Picard went on to say they discovered that energy and matter are interchangeable.
And Voyager kept having energy issues in the early seasons which necessitated replicator rations.

In the episode 'The Cloud' Janeway mentioned something about 'rationing replicator energy'.

ST DS9: 'Visionary'
ODO: So, then I began thinking about the replicator.
SISKO: Ah. They realigned the matter-energy conversion matrix.

ST VOY: 'Night'
TORRES: The residual anti-matter is then processed in the transkinetic chamber, where it's broken down on the subatomic level.
EMCK: What about the theta radiation?
TORRES: Oh, it's absorbed by a series of radiometric converters. We recycle the energy, use it to power everything from life support to replicators.


It simply doesn't make sense that next to fusion and antimatter power generation, they would need 'bulk matter' for replicating objects.
Replicators certainly seem to have the ability to manipulating a structure of matter itself, so you could use raw matter for recycling (which is turned into energy).

... and it makes sense that they would be converting pure energy into matter.

What form of energy do you see being used, electricity, heat, stored chemicals?

Plasma most likely.
We have seen that the Warp core provides main/primary energy (or plasma in this instance) which is distributed via the EPS grid to ship systems (replicators included).

Plasma needs to be converted to something else to do useful work. Plasma is influenced by magnetic fields so a power tap might harness its kinetic energy by way of a magnetic field, or if it is hot it might be harvested using thermocouples, or inward facing solar panels, or Stirling engines, or if it is fusing then it might be emitting a particle I cannot recall (maybe neutrons) and capture it in lithium (or dilithium in Trek's case) which will get hot so the heat can be tapped. Then again, dilithium might convert heat and neutrons straight to electricity.


Thank you for this post, I find it definitive. Despite the limitations I listed earlier, the above definitely means replicators are building atoms from scratch on the subatomic level, even though they can make errors in placement on the atomic level when making chemicals.

The most significant instance you quoted is as follows.

ST TNG: 'Night Terrors'
RIKER: Couldn't we replicate the elements that Tyken used?
DATA: No, sir. We no longer have the power to reproduce complex elements in the replicator. We must find a way to generate a violent energy release without using conventional means.

Power equals subatomic complexity.

Also, the transporter associations to the replicator fits nicely with the episodes where people reversed their ages, were healed, or were rebuilt from computer storage.

I also have something you might find useful. Four years ago I wrote the Big Book of Scanning, and I found a version I posted elsewhere a year ago. It cites quotes related to sensors from TNG with annotation.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mchYZCW-1gICerSpqrwi-scGMjZx275agvsFLwS3Kqk/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Timo]

I'd elevate as the most significant instance the wording in this one:

ST TNG: 'Ship in a Bottle'
DATA: Perhaps we should consider the transporter system. It uses many of the same principles as the holodeck. Both, for example, are capable of converting energy into matter.

Emphasis on the choice of words that suggests the conversion doesn't always happen, and indeed may happen relatively rarely. Several of the other quotes confirm that energy indeed can become matter outright, but nothing necessitates this being the most common mode of operation for either of the devices.

However, replicators also seem to have the ability to convert matter into energy

Absolutely false. The only component on the ship that can do that is the warp core, and it does that by the anihilation of matter and antimatter.

I don't think there's any dialogue anywhere to confirm this sort of a limitation. For all we know, every tricorder has that as a built-in function, and there may well be dozens of different techniques and physical phenomena that enable the feat. After all, Trek is full of compact machinery capable of amazing things that seem to call for a lot of power - annihilation-based powerpacks might well be quite commonplace.

Given that fact, it's equally true that energy CANNOT be converted into matter by a reciprocal process; replicators would have to produce an equal part of antimatter for every object they replicate.

There's no law of nature that would dictate this. Certain conservation laws might need to be met, but that can be done law by law, dumping the various "anti-properties" in separate dustbins. But Trek offers no good basis for the continuing validity of conservation laws as such.

One should also consider that less advanced starships -- Mirandas and Constellations and probably even Excelsiors -- are probably still using the old-style replicators that have been familiar to Starfleet since Kirk's time: the product is manufactured in a central location and then transferred to the food slot on a conveyor system.

Ripping out such a space-hogging conveyor system might be a priority in keeping those ships up to date...

The jury is still out on what Kirk's ship really had, though. On-the-spot manufacturing of foods might have been the norm, even when we know of the existence of a separate conventional galley.

All of this means that even if it was POSSIBLE to convert pure energy directly into matter -- and even in Star Trek, it isn't -- it would STILL be more practical to simply re-pattern their waste products and not have to put such huge loads on their power systems just to feed the crew.

For all we know, those huge loads are nevertheless involved in feeding the crew - simply because they are utterly puny in comparison with all the other loads involved in starship operations. Or planetside existence, for that matter.

The people of the future are not poor. Arguing that they cannot afford to each waste daily what today is the annual total of global energy production isn't easy when so much "high energy" stuff is occurring in the adventures. A better line of argument in support of "cheats" in place of raw E=mcc is that weapons of mass destruction still appear to be rare - if replicators really worked on E=mcc, any kid would find it temptingly easy to blow up continents...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

I'm reminded of the "total conversion drive" encountered in The Doomsday Machine, which was presumably some sort of oddity in terms of its absolute efficiency.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

However, replicators also seem to have the ability to convert matter into energy

Absolutely false. The only component on the ship that can do that is the warp core, and it does that by the anihilation of matter and antimatter.

I don't think there's any dialogue anywhere to confirm this sort of a limitation. For all we know, every tricorder has that as a built-in function, and there may well be dozens of different techniques and physical phenomena that enable the feat. After all, Trek is full of compact machinery capable of amazing things that seem to call for a lot of power - annihilation-based powerpacks might well be quite commonplace.

Strictly speaking, ALL power sources convert a (small) amount of matter into energy. Gasoline basically does this when it burns, the breaking of chemical bonds representing the release of particles at high speed that loose a little bit of their mass in subsequent collisions (matter into energy). I'm also pretty sure that some Trek technologies -- krelide power cells and blitrium in particular -- are actually highly efficient means of storing and reacting miniscule amounts of antimatter in a controlled fashion, which explains their ridiculously high power density; picture a chunk of dilithium with half a miligram of antimatter trapped inside it, then wrap that piece with a layer of palladium hydride, add a radiometric converter, and you have a slow-bleed antimatter battery.

No, I'm talking about a device that takes a quantity of incoming matter and converts the entire quantity -- or at least the majority of it -- into energy. This is what the Doomsday Machine essentially was: a giant flying energy converter equipped with a force beam. Shove a bunch of crap into the opening and it converts that crap into energy, using it as fuel.

All of this means that even if it was POSSIBLE to convert pure energy directly into matter -- and even in Star Trek, it isn't -- it would STILL be more practical to simply re-pattern their waste products and not have to put such huge loads on their power systems just to feed the crew.

For all we know, those huge loads are nevertheless involved in feeding the crew - simply because they are utterly puny in comparison with all the other loads involved in starship operations.

But they're NOT puny compared to other operations, which is actually my point. There's no other system on the ship that would actually require a direct one-to-one conversion of energy into matter. Phaser banks don't, shields don't, sensors don't, even their impulse engines don't. Even warp drive -- which is directly powered by the reverse reaction -- doesn't convert the energy from the warp core into matter, but produces a huge energy field with highly advantageous effects.

A total conversion replicator would be the MOST energy-intensive component of any starship anywhere. Even IF it were possible to fit starships with such devices, a pattern-conversion replicator would be able to do the exact same job in the same amount of time for less than a fraction of the power consumption.

The people of the future are not poor.

Correction: the people of EARTH are not poor.

The people of Bajor, on the other hand, were reduced to a state of global poverty and degradation by the Cardassian occupation and strip-mining of their world. Starfleet gave the Bajorans two CFI replicators in order to help them rebuild. I don't see Bajor having the infrastructure in place to be able to waste millions of terrawatts a day on a highly impractical replicator system -- or two, for that matter -- especially given the condition of Deep Space Nine after the pullout.

Much more importantly: Deep Space Nine is NOT equipped with a matter-antimatter powerplant. The station is powered by one honking big fusion reactor. While that reactor clearly rivals the warp cores of some small starships (certainly exceeds the outputs of Danube-class runabout cores) it has nowhere near enough output to be able to operate a total-conversion replicator system; just ONE such device would draw more energy than DS9 is capable of generating.

A better line of argument in support of "cheats" in place of raw E=mcc is that weapons of mass destruction still appear to be rare - if replicators really worked on E=mcc, any kid would find it temptingly easy to blow up continents...

See again my observations about bilitrium and krelide power cells. Both of these things have shown tat they can be deliberately overloaded -- in the latter case, with the addition of an antimatter converter -- turning both devices into very large bombs.

Dialog suggests a phaser set to overload will produce an explosive reaction equivalent to something like a suitcase nuke. Tahna Loss' bilitrium bomb, likewise, is probably equivalent to two or three photon torpedoes on its own.

But these are weapons technologies and tightly regulated, so it makes sense that turning them into bombs would be hard to do unless you have access to them and really know what you're doing. Replicators, on the other hand, are everywhere, and everyone has access to them, and we've seen no indication that they are overly difficult to tamper with. The fact that terrorists never attempt to convert replicators into weapons of mass destruction does indeed give us an indicator of its inherent limitations.

I'm reminded of the "total conversion drive" encountered in The Doomsday Machine, which was presumably some sort of oddity in terms of its absolute efficiency.

Exactly.

 

[Timo]

No, I'm talking about a device that takes a quantity of incoming matter and converts the entire quantity -- or at least the majority of it -- into energy. This is what the Doomsday Machine essentially was: a giant flying energy converter equipped with a force beam. Shove a bunch of crap into the opening and it converts that crap into energy, using it as fuel.

Yup. Doesn't mean every tricorder wouldn't have the same thing in the battery compartment.

But they're NOT puny compared to other operations, which is actually my point.

We can always arbitrarily decide that they are. After all, a main power consumption mode is FTL flight, which is unreal and cannot be quantified - but our heroes do think it's a big deal, and one of the first things they will lose to a "power shortage".

OTOH, we never hear of a starship being in a danger of running out of warp power, i.e. fuel, until VOY "Demon"... So we can argue that there's a lot of power being burned in daily operations, and the heroes simply don't care.

As for the power consumption needs of phasers and, consequently, shields, there's no way of telling. Total conversion might pale in comparison with the energies used in combat - because the more, the merrier: combat aims to hurt and there'd be little point in pulling the punches. Plus, one of the major features of the trademark Trek death ray is its ability to make the victim disappear totally.

I don't see Bajor having the infrastructure in place to be able to waste millions of terrawatts a day on a highly impractical replicator system

Bajorans, like everybody else, operate warp-driven FTL spacecraft. Just land one of those if you for some mysterious reason are unable to construct a comparable power source without the ship around it.

Much more importantly: Deep Space Nine is NOT equipped with a matter-antimatter powerplant.

It stands in readiness to fire thousands of antimatter-tipped torpedoes, and regularly operates warp-driven spacecraft of its own. If the big fusion reactor can't handle the station's multiple replicators, then the X that handles these other assets can take over and run the replicators on the total-conversion mode.

The fact that terrorists never attempt to convert replicators into weapons of mass destruction does indeed give us an indicator of its inherent limitations.

...Or then of its much greater potential for destruction, warranting greater precautions than in the case of other power sources such as sarium krellide cells.

I'm not really personally of the opinion that the replicators wouldn't "cheat" in most cases. It's just that the case can be made either way - and the ability to whip up stuff out of thin energy is heavily supported by dialogue and events, at least in certain situations where we have fewer variables than usual.

I'm reminded of the "total conversion drive" encountered in The Doomsday Machine, which was presumably some sort of oddity in terms of its absolute efficiency.

Or then Spock just noted that the opponent of this week isn't hobbled by "its power is simple impulse" or other such nonsense, but is an adversary on par with the Enterprise even before its much superior size is taken into account.

That Spock can't identify the specific model of TC system is just him boasting in the classic Vulcan fashion: "I cannot provide this insignificant little detail and will now make a big issue out of it, so that you appreciate my superior competence all the more".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

No, I'm talking about a device that takes a quantity of incoming matter and converts the entire quantity -- or at least the majority of it -- into energy. This is what the Doomsday Machine essentially was: a giant flying energy converter equipped with a force beam. Shove a bunch of crap into the opening and it converts that crap into energy, using it as fuel.

Yup. Doesn't mean every tricorder wouldn't have the same thing in the battery compartment.

That's kind of EXACTLY what that means, but whatever.

But they're NOT puny compared to other operations, which is actually my point.

We can always arbitrarily decide that they are.

Yeah, we can always make up whatever mindless bullshit we want for no reason whatsoever. That's not really what we're talking about here.

Bajorans, like everybody else, operate warp-driven FTL spacecraft.

DO they? Because as far as I can tell, none of their ships were actually warp-capable, especially in the immediate aftermath of the occupation. Their attack fighters and impulse fliers certainly weren't. Some of their transport craft may have been, but it's unclear whether or not the Bajoran government actually owns those craft or merely chartered them from someone else.

It stands in readiness to fire thousands of antimatter-tipped torpedoes, and regularly operates warp-driven spacecraft of its own. If the big fusion reactor can't handle the station's multiple replicators, then the X that handles these other assets can take over and run the replicators on the total-conversion mode.

Because shoving photon torpedoes into an energy converter and detonating them is a really efficient way of replicating a ham sandwich.

Might be fun to watch, though.

I'm not really personally of the opinion that the replicators wouldn't "cheat" in most cases. It's just that the case can be made either way

Sure, just like a case can be made that Donald Trump is actually a lab mouse wearing a large mechanical suit.

But we're talking about PLAUSIBLE cases, not "Let's play devil's advocate by throwing out fifty nonsensical scenarios just as an intellectual exercise" cases.

I'm reminded of the "total conversion drive" encountered in The Doomsday Machine, which was presumably some sort of oddity in terms of its absolute efficiency.

Or then Spock just noted that the opponent of this week isn't hobbled by "its power is simple impulse" or other such nonsense, but is an adversary on par with the Enterprise even before its much superior size is taken into account.

More than on-par, MUCH more.

Starships are fueled by matter-antimatter reactions. This isn't arbitrary, there's a REASON for this: matter-with-antimatter is the ONLY known reaction -- even in the Trek universe -- that can convert 100% of both reactants into energy.

That Starfleet still uses antimatter for its main powerplants -- along with its inherent hazards and boom potential -- means they DO NOT have the technology to construct a total-conversion drive. If they did, they wouldn't bother to use antimatter; they could fuel their ships with LITERALLY ANYTHING.

 

[Deks]

Crazy_Eddie

Small problem with your rationalization:
Humans in the late 24th century use nanites in medicine, they have FTL capability powered by matter-antimatter reaction, have subspace sensors that can scan over 100 Ly's away (in Voyager's case of Astrometric sensors, 2500 Ly's away - and can even distinguish DNA from huge distances with high level of precision), transporters, holodecks, phasers that have a range of 300 000 km and photon torpedoes that provide at least 64 megatons of explosions (which are also capable of FTL).

You are trying to rationalize that just because something seems 'impractical' from today's science and technology, that it would also be impractical for them.

How many technologies in Trek defy current scientific explanations again?
So what's the big deal in stretching your imagination to at least acknowledge the mere possibility that replicators could be converting energy into matter without needing bulk matter?
Replicators evidently also have the ability to manipulate matter to change it from one form into another, but they seem to simply 'recycle' the raw matter first (convert it into energy), which is then stored for later use, or used to replicate something they want.

Also, matter with antimatter doesn't appear to be the 'only' known reaction in Trek universe that can convert 100% of both reactants into energy.
The Romulans don't even seem to use M-AM reactors. They use artificial singularity to power their ships.

SF may have simply stuck to M-AM because they were able to improve its efficiency and energy outputs.
And as we have noticed, faster forms of propulsion don't necessarily need more powerful energy cores to run (seeing how Both the Enterprise-D and Voyager were able to use several forms of faster than Warp speeds without changing their primary energy source - the Warp core - which in most cases required some modifications to accommodate the different propulsion technology).

Plus, they have energy converters which changes it's structure so that ships can use it as another energy source - such as Theta radiation (Torres plainly explained it in episode 'Night' to the Malon freighter captain).

The Warp core may be the primary energy source, but we've seen that Federation ships CAN indeed fuel their ships with almost anything else.
It depends on the circumstances really.
Their technology seems highly adaptive to accommodate a variety of situations and outcomes (hence the versatility of the equipment) - it's not surprising when you consider that the Federation uses collective scientific and technical knowledge of 150 different species who share and work together.

Nothing in any episode indicates presence of bulk matter for replicator use.
Picard clearly stated that according to THEIR understanding, energy and matter are interchangeable - he mentioned this clearly to Moriarty in one of the episodes.
Every single time when there was a problem with replicating something on-screen, ENERGY was used as a primary reason, or that the replicators have been programmed NOT to replicate specific substances for health and security reasons - bulk matter was never mentioned, nor inferred at any point.
'Bulk-matter' is simply speaking a fan extrapolation who thought that converting energy into matter is a waste of time.

Newsflash: these people are way beyond us (or they are supposed to be).
If you want to use a real world analogy, then this might be appropriate: 'Technical efficiency allows us to do more by using less'.
In Trek, we have seen in Trek that SF made numerous improvements to their ships and managed to even replace a Warp core on the Enterprise-D which was apparently much more powerful but the same size.

In Season 7 of Voyager, episode 'Void', the crew got the technology which tripled their replicator efficiency (according to Neelix, they were able to feed 500 people a day at the time using 50% less power than before).

So, they might have found a way to bend the laws of physics to the point where replicating matter may not be as energy costly as it would be for us.
As they continue to improve on efficiency, they might be able to lower the energy requirements of replication (energy to matter conversion) while expending LESS energy in the process.

Buckminster Fuller himself spoke about 'ephemeralization' which is the ability of technological advancement to do "more and more with less and less until eventually you can do everything with nothing".

We can already do this in real life.
Maybe not in case of lowering energy requirements for the purpose of replication, but we can certainly lower our footprint on the planet by orders of magnitude without lowering our population (actually, we can easily even increase it and STILL provide more than enough for everyone), and we can also repair the environment and provide for everyone using FAR LESS land area (our current issues are that we aren't doing things from a technical efficiency point of view, even though we had this ability for well over 40 years now in terms of better energy generation and food production for example, both of which do not pollute the environment and are far more efficient compared to currently used methods which are profit based - Trek doesn't have this problem - but its also a long thing to explain so I'll just stop here).

 

[Go-Captain]

Emphasis on the choice of words that suggests the conversion doesn't always happen, and indeed may happen relatively rarely. Several of the other quotes confirm that energy indeed can become matter outright, but nothing necessitates this being the most common mode of operation for either of the devices.

For a long time I thought the statements of energy to matter, matter to energy with transporters was purely hyperbole, but it does seem to be a sometimes thing. For a long time, transporters seemed more like they were wrapping people in a subspace bubble and shooting the bubble to places. But, it definitely can edit matter, and even created a second Riker, which absolutely fits best with having created a new Riker from additional energy.

I don't think there's any dialogue anywhere to confirm this sort of a limitation. For all we know, every tricorder has that as a built-in function, and there may well be dozens of different techniques and physical phenomena that enable the feat. After all, Trek is full of compact machinery capable of amazing things that seem to call for a lot of power - annihilation-based powerpacks might well be quite commonplace.

There's no law of nature that would dictate this. Certain conservation laws might need to be met, but that can be done law by law, dumping the various "anti-properties" in separate dustbins. But Trek offers no good basis for the continuing validity of conservation laws as such.

I think we may be left with replicators being able to extract energy from disassembled of matter, given "Year of Hell," but it must be less efficient than the natural annihilation of matter-antimatter in the presence of dilithium.

The jury is still out on what Kirk's ship really had, though. On-the-spot manufacturing of foods might have been the norm, even when we know of the existence of a separate conventional galley.

Considering the physical simplicity of TOS food, I think it stands to reason it was manufactured on the spot in each slot. It simply arrives too quickly, and the expected difficulty in sight to sight transport seems to preclude the idea the food is beaming around the ship.

Considering the simplicity of the food, it makes sense we would see a kitchen at some point making superior food. Where it makes less sense is in TNG since the replicators should be fully capable of handling any remotely conventional food.

Each slot making its own food also fits well enough with the protein resequencer in Enterprise which could create nutritional liquid, and possibly boots from fecal matter.

The people of the future are not poor. Arguing that they cannot afford to each waste daily what today is the annual total of global energy production isn't easy when so much "high energy" stuff is occurring in the adventures.

A better line of argument in support of "cheats" in place of raw E=mcc is that weapons of mass destruction still appear to be rare - if replicators really worked on E=mcc, any kid would find it temptingly easy to blow up continents...

Timo Saloniemi

Every starship, and every torpedo is a weapon of mass destruction on a level which could only be compared to the combined might of every nuclear arsenal on Earth, as a high but still appallingly low figure, or a fully working Tsar Bomba, as a low end.

 

[Timo]

Yeah, we can always make up whatever mindless bullshit we want for no reason whatsoever. That's not really what we're talking about here.

Well, that's the only thing we ever do here. There's no other approach to speaking about "warp drive", after all. And to pretend otherwise is just dishonest.

DO they? Because as far as I can tell, none of their ships were actually warp-capable, especially in the immediate aftermath of the occupation

The very first regular ep, "Past Prologue", featured Tahna Los flying a warp-capable ship from another star system. And literally all of the types ever seen in Bajoran hands were explicitly shown operating across interstellar distances, including the impulse and sub-impulse winged craft and the type that in "Ensign Ro" was said to lack the ability to do FTL! (And the lightsail, although that's a different matter.) So we're back to the twofold reality of Trek:

1) Everybody and their idiot cousin has FTL capabilities - they are nothing special, once discovered or otherwise acquired.
2) Yet such capabilities necessarily are fantastic, unreal, utterly beyond our comprehension, and arguably involving immense power consumption.

it's unclear whether or not the Bajoran government actually owns those craft

It's not as if "the Bajoran government" ever went much beyond a joke anyway. This shouldn't stop Bajor from having replicators run by starship-standard powerplants.

Starships are fueled by matter-antimatter reactions. This isn't arbitrary, there's a REASON for this: matter-with-antimatter is the ONLY known reaction -- even in the Trek universe -- that can convert 100% of both reactants into energy.

We cannot argue Trek wouldn't have something better, not until a character says so. And in fact Trek antimatter does better than that, whenever we get quantitative data (an ounce rips out an atmosphere etc.).

That Starfleet still uses antimatter for its main powerplants -- along with its inherent hazards and boom potential -- means they DO NOT have the technology to construct a total-conversion drive.

Actually, it means just the opposite, by the very definition. They just choose to totally convert deuterium, for whatever reason. Why wouldn't they? Banana peels, BTTF style, are really difficult to come by in interstellar space.

I think we may be left with replicators being able to extract energy from disassembled of matter, given "Year of Hell," but it must be less efficient than the natural annihilation of matter-antimatter in the presence of dilithium.

Or at the very least less practical. All sorts of unfathomable obstacles might arise when one closely combines replicators and warp drives... Drawing a power conduit between one and the other is apparently fine, but hooking them directly to each other via a "cable" capable of taking warp energies might bring to play the sort of interference that makes transporters unreliable in presence of forcefields, etc.

Considering the physical simplicity of TOS food, I think it stands to reason it was manufactured on the spot in each slot.

There's contrasting evidence on that - the heroes ate colored cubes, but they also ate a lot of celery. The texture on the latter looked fine to me, so why didn't they print the red cubes in the shape of radishes or ribs? Seems like a deliberate culinary choice...

...Especially since the colored cubes were something offered to the 114 VIPs aboard in "Journey to Babel", too. Probably just a 23rd century favorite.

Where it makes less sense is in TNG since the replicators should be fully capable of handling any remotely conventional food.

And there it indeed seems that it's relatively difficult to find a real kitchen in that timeframe and environment. Otherwise, our cooking enthusiasts, Sisko and Riker, wouldn't be quite that excited when getting the chance to do some simple cooking.

Oh, and there's an issue with our dialogue evidence that might warrant one final comment:

Every single time when there was a problem with replicating something on-screen, ENERGY was used as a primary reason

Actually, the writers prefer the word "power" for some reason. Which is rather convenient for us, because "power" is much less definite: in addition to "energy-per-time", it can simply mean "ability", in various ways. Perhaps the issue is "computing power" or "power to resolve the subatomic detail"? If such a statement is not explicitly coupled with another that says that more oomph from the powerplant would solve the crisis (and this seldom happens, even though eps like "Night Terrors" heavily imply it), then we don't have to assume that it's an issue of wattage. Although of course we still can.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Crazy_Eddie

Small problem with your rationalization:
Humans in the late 24th century...

... are not all that there is in the galaxy, and are not even the typical example of what is possible technologically. The Federation is not depicted as being a great deal more or less advanced than competing races. But more importantly, the wealthy planets of the Federation are NOT typical of the standard of living enjoyed by colonists or under-developed worlds like Bajor or beseiged war-torn worlds like Cardassia. Nor does this reflect the state of affairs in the Klingon or Romulan Empires, on Ferenginar and its territories, in the worlds that are still vulnerable to Breen piracy, and the various alien-of-the-week species that have a similar tech level but none of the wealth of the Federation.

Starfleet supposedly has a lot of the things you mentioned, but Starfleet is a cutting-edge exploration service with a budget that would make you shit your pants. The average city government today doesn't have its own ICBM silos, doesn't have steam-powered catapults to launch tactical fighters, doesn't have nuclear-tipped cruise missiles, doesn't have a satellite uplink to global tactical battle network, doesn't have advanced military grade GPS systems or advanced military-grade electronic warfare equipment. In short, MOST of the shit you find on an aircraft carrier, you will NOT find in a major city.

On the other hand, it is entirely possible to divert the steam flow output of a thermonuclear reactor to the galley of said aircraft carrier in order to cook a steak. Moreover, it is possible to build highly compact nuclear fission devices that can generate enough heat in a short period of time to provide adequate cooking temperatures. In short, the technology exists TODAY to use a thermonuclear reactor core as a heating element for cooking food. Or, failing that, simple radioisotope heating elements get hot all on their own. These are, in fact, technological possibilities that have existed for countries like the United Staes since at least the mid 1970s.

So why aren't more restaurants using plutonium-powered hibachis these days?

You are trying to rationalize that just because something seems 'impractical' from today's science and technology

No, I'm saying it's impractical from STAR TREK's science and technology. In the same way that "cooking a steak" is no more a practical use for a nuclear reactor than it is for a matter-energy converter. If Starfleet had that kind of technology the term "warp core breach" would simply refer to the hole in the main replicator where the crew shovels their garbage every evening.

So what's the big deal in stretching your imagination to at least acknowledge the mere possibility that replicators could be converting energy into matter without needing bulk matter?

Because that is
a) A stupid and dangerous solution to a relatively simple problem and
b) Totally inconsistent with either Star Trek's depiction of the science OR Star Trek's depiction of its own technology.

The Warp core may be the primary energy source, but we've seen that Federation ships CAN indeed fuel their ships with almost anything else.

Yes, in the same way that a naval gas turbine can run on a variety of fuels from JP-8, to ordinary diesel or in some cases even simple gasoline.

But that's not what you're suggesting, is it? You're painting a picture of a 20th century nation that has discovered the secret of nuclear fission and is capable of building highly compact fission reactors; they then continue to power their ships with a combination of diesel engines and sails, and use the nuclear reactors to cook their dinners.

That, for some reason, makes sense to you. I, on the other hand, recognize that the most practical use for such a device is to power the entire ship. A vessel so equipped would have no need for a warp core, antimatter (with its inherent containment issues), or dilithium crystals. Forget "theta radiation" or any Voyager technobabble, you could fuel a starship with a pile of sand.

But starships don't work that way. They're fueled by deuterium (for some reason) and antimatter, two very SPECIFIC reactants, one of which is amazingly hazardous in even tiny amounts, and the other of which is incredibly rare in the universe.

Nothing in any episode indicates presence of bulk matter for replicator use.

Nothing in any episode indicates the presence of toilets, but we still infer their presence due to the existence of assholes.

And we infer the existence of bulk matter for three very simple reasons:
1) The TNG tech manual says they do
2) Nothing directly CONTRADICTS this reference and
3) Warp cores exist

Replicators, being an outgrowth of transporter technology, "beam" an object of equal mass from storage to the end user in a new, pre-arranged form. That's the way they work (1) it's the way the show treats them despite the confusing dialog (2) and it's the reason why starships don't use replicators as a power source for their engines (3).

And even the dialog mostly backs this up:

JANEWAY: That watch represents a meal, a hypospray, or a pair of boots. It could mean the difference between life and death one day.

Notice what's absent from that list: a phaser blast, a couple minutes of shield power, an extra warp factor, an emergency forcefield. IOW: recycle that watch and replicate something useful.

Why can't the SHIP use the "energy" that went into that watch? For that matter, why can't the ship use the "energy" of all the random crap lying at Janeway's feet right now? Why isn't she scooping up the broken bits of ceiling panels and recycling THEM too?

Because the SHIP can't use the material the replicators use to make things. The CREW certainly can (if the replicators are still working) but Voyager is fueled by matter and antimatter, not by pocket watches.

Newsflash: these people are way beyond us

Unless their technology is based on refined handwavium and distilled Tobasco brand unicorn blood, we should still expect it to work in a consistent way.

So if you want me to believe Starfleet has the technology to convert solid matter directly into energy, you now have to come up with a logically consistent reason why the replicator in ENGINEERING is being used to manufacture a cup of hot chocolate instead of safely and efficiently converting the ship's thousands of liters of slush hydrogen into useful energy for the warp drive.

As they continue to improve on efficiency, they might be able to lower the energy requirements of replication (energy to matter conversion) while expending LESS energy in the process.

Except this is Star Trek, not Harry Potter. You can't exceed 100% efficiency; thermodynamically speaking, you can't even REACH 100% efficiency. A conversion device will ALWAYS expend more energy than the converted object is actually worth.

In the case of real transporter-based replicators, the expended energy is the amount of power it takes to dismantle bulk matter, rearrange it and re-materialize it in the replicator slot. This process is DEFINITELY highly energy intensive to such a degree that Voyager had to rashion replicator use and shut them down entirely in time of combat (Enterprise-D did the same thing in "Yesterday's Enterprise").

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Actually, it means just the opposite, by the very definition.

No it doesn't. It means the most efficient way to burn fuel is through particle-antiparticle annihilation. That's not actually the "conversion to energy" since the product of annihilation is still, in fact, a set of subatomic particles (muons, gamma photons, and the neutrinos signatures that starships are known to emit at warp drive). The energy yield FROM that reaction is carried away by those particles in the form of "warp plasma" (except, again, those pesky neutrinos, which can't be contained by anything but 24th century technology can still detect).

Put simply: warp cores don't convert matter into energy. They convert deuterium and antideuterium into a highly charged (and probably highly radioactive) warp plasma.

They just choose to totally convert deuterium, for whatever reason. Why wouldn't they? Banana peels, BTTF style, are really difficult to come by in interstellar space.

But monatomic hydrogen, which makes up 99% of the interstellar medium, isn't.

The only reason they would use deuterium is because they need the extra mass of the neutrons, which may or may not actually annihilate in that reaction and would wind up absorbing most of the energy of proton-antipriton annihilation. They might even absorb the gamma rays from said reaction and decay into positive and negative quarks. A highly energetic quark-gluon plasma is EXACTLY the kind of funky exotic matter you would need if you wanted to build a working warp drive.

There's contrasting evidence on that - the heroes ate colored cubes, but they also ate a lot of celery. The texture on the latter looked fine to me, so why didn't they print the red cubes in the shape of radishes or ribs? Seems like a deliberate culinary choice...

...Especially since the colored cubes were something offered to the 114 VIPs aboard in "Journey to Babel", too. Probably just a 23rd century favorite.

Probably just candied yams.