Regarding TWOK's popularity

[Red Ranger]

It's become trendy these days for Star Trek fans to hate on things they love.

A trend I'm only too happy to buck! -- RR

 

[NCC74894A]

Khan was crazed and obsessed with revenge, which is why he doesn't make the smartest of decisions in the movie. I also think the film was better off without a Kruge-like battle between him and Kirk.

You know, in an earlier draft, they did want to have some kind of fight between Kirk and Khan. The original screenwriter, Jack B. Sowards, wanted to establish that Khan was some kind of "mystic," able to project himself into others minds, and that he and Kirk would have some kind of violent fight with barbed whips, but no matter how hard he beats him, Kirk doesn't break, so Khan stops off his mental attack. -- RR

'Kay.

I for one am glad they didn't feel the need to meet face-to-face. It avoided a scene contrived just for the event, and made it feel more real.

Not necessarily. They could easily have worked a Kirk-Khan fight into the climax with only minor adjustments to prior dialogue. In the actual film, Kirk offered to beam aboard the Reliant to shut down the Genesis device, until David said it can't be shut down once activated. Instead the writers could have allowed the device to be shut down and had Kirk try to do it, only to have Khan waiting for him aboard the Reliant. They brawl for awhile, and just when it seems Kirk's about to win, Khan manages to beam the device into space and sabotage the transporter controls (so Kirk can't just beam it back aboard to disarm it), so Spock still has to sacrifice himself at the end.

Considering the prior history between Khan and Kirk in "Space Seed", and Khan's grudge toward Kirk for leaving him on a doomed planet, I've always thought TWOK was missing a final mano-a-mano between them in the climax. It's still good enough for 3rd in my ranking of the pre-Abrams Trek films though, behind First Contact and Undiscovered Country. Indeed, if not for the Director's Edition of TMP there would have been a lot of distance between TWOK and my 4th-place movie (which would otherwise have been Nemesis).

 

[trevanian]

I always thought TWOK was the best with character development, growth and themes and whatever. Simply put, it had great emotional impact on people. Sure, there are plot holes large enough to fly the Enterprise-D through, but no other Star Trek film deals with life, death, growing old, tackling the impossible... human things, human conditions- quite as well as TWOK.

Screw impressive space battles. Screw the qualtiy of the soundtrack.

I want a movie with some goddamned heart.

That's why a ton of Star Trek fans will tell you TWOK is the best one.

And as a plus, TWOK had those impressive space battles (for an early 80s film) and a really good soundtrack (even though it's the hip-thing to dislike Horner's work)

Yeah, what's with all the hating on James Horner? TWOK has a great, energetic score, esp. the increasingly dramatic music as Reliant closes in on Enterprise. The one I didn't like was his work on Aliens -- that sounded like TWOK lite. -- RR

If you listen to WOLFEN, you'll also hear the same music, and in the Jack Ryan films you get to hear Horner's rip on some 2001 classical stuff. Listen to any of his 80s action films and you'll hear the exact same music over and over again.

TWOK is a good score, but it is insanely derivative, just like pretty much every Horner score. To me, it is kind of like if Stephen King had no talent, but just changed the names of characters in Richard Matheson stories, but King still raked in millions from doing it. Horner doesn't seem creative at all. Not then and not now.

 

[Basil]

And as a plus, TWOK had those impressive space battles (for an early 80s film) and a really good soundtrack (even though it's the hip-thing to dislike Horner's work)

Yeah, what's with all the hating on James Horner? TWOK has a great, energetic score, esp. the increasingly dramatic music as Reliant closes in on Enterprise. The one I didn't like was his work on Aliens -- that sounded like TWOK lite. -- RR

If you listen to WOLFEN, you'll also hear the same music, and in the Jack Ryan films you get to hear Horner's rip on some 2001 classical stuff. Listen to any of his 80s action films and you'll hear the exact same music over and over again.

TWOK is a good score, but it is insanely derivative, just like pretty much every Horner score. To me, it is kind of like if Stephen King had no talent, but just changed the names of characters in Richard Matheson stories, but King still raked in millions from doing it. Horner doesn't seem creative at all. Not then and not now.

Yes, but in fairness, Horner sounds distinctly and pleasantly like Horner and no one else -- the criticism of his scores reminds me of the criticism of John Wayne somehow being a poor actor despite doing what he did better than anyone else.

And they all steal from the "classics" in some way, as well as their own work. John Williams seems to have borrowed from everything from the wedding march to the funeral dirge for his "Star Wars" soundtracks, as well as Holst's "The Planets" for sections of the Indiana Jones movies. Listen to Goldsmith's "The Wind and the Lion" soundtrack, for instance, and you'll hear what sounds like the ancestor of the Klingon theme from TMP.

I've always thought King to be deriviative, basically retelling Dracula as Salem's Lot, Jaws/Old Yeller as Cujo, the Book of Revelation as The Stand, etc. He is obviously channeling Lovecraft with Castle Rock instead of Arkham, and a professor I knew once said one of King's stories was virtually a plagiarism of a Lovecraft story -- can't remember which . . . "The Colour Out of Space," maybe?

Anyway, I enjoy Horner's work. If he has a signature style that he employs frequently, that's fine with me so long as it works. He certainly beats Dennis McCarthy and Leonard Rosenman on most days.

 

[RoJoHen]

I will say that I don't understand all the hype surrounding this movie. I don't think it's bad at all, but if I were to rank the films, TWOK would probably be somewhere in the middle. Like some have said, I just find parts of it boring, and there are certain scenes that just completely take me out of it (Kirk yelling "Khaaaaaaaaaaan!" is probably one of the most laughable moments in any movie I've ever seen).

 

[Basil]

I will say that I don't understand all the hype surrounding this movie. I don't think it's bad at all, but if I were to rank the films, TWOK would probably be somewhere in the middle. Like some have said, I just find parts of it boring, and there are certain scenes that just completely take me out of it (Kirk yelling "Khaaaaaaaaaaan!" is probably one of the most laughable moments in any movie I've ever seen).

I remember the packed theater in 1982 going dead silent after Kirk's outburst of rage, which I think was the intended effect. (Years later, I wondered if it was also a feint to throw Khan off, since Kirk already was plotting his escape.)

I do recall chuckles at Kirk's "Klingon bastard" scene in Star Trek III, though, while I cringed. Not once, not twice, but thrice, each time punctuated with the unnecessary "Klingon" and Shatner's off-kilter delivery. Many fans like that moment, but I always found it campy and overwrought, as apparently did many in the crowded theater that day.

 

[Supervisor 194]

Kirk yelling "Khaaaan" is definitely a feint to throw Khan off--at that point he already has his escape plan worked out with Spock via coded language: the "hours seem like days" bit. So obviously Kirk is feigning outrage during that scene, and IMO it works.

I wonder if Shatner's reputation hadn't evolved as it has, if that scene would still be ridiculed by some as it is today?

 

[ST-One]

And as a plus, TWOK had those impressive space battles (for an early 80s film) and a really good soundtrack (even though it's the hip-thing to dislike Horner's work)

Yeah, what's with all the hating on James Horner? TWOK has a great, energetic score, esp. the increasingly dramatic music as Reliant closes in on Enterprise. The one I didn't like was his work on Aliens -- that sounded like TWOK lite. -- RR

If you listen to WOLFEN, you'll also hear the same music, and in the Jack Ryan films you get to hear Horner's rip on some 2001 classical stuff. Listen to any of his 80s action films and you'll hear the exact same music over and over again.

TWOK is a good score, but it is insanely derivative, just like pretty much every Horner score. To me, it is kind of like if Stephen King had no talent, but just changed the names of characters in Richard Matheson stories, but King still raked in millions from doing it. Horner doesn't seem creative at all. Not then and not now.

Horner writes very good music. Yes, he reuses a lot of his own stuff, but what great composer doesn't?
I mean have you listend to the stuff John Williams drools out these days? You could replace his action-music in 'Revenge of the Sith' with that from 'Minority Report' and no-one would notice it.

But if you compare Horner's music for TWOK, Titanic, The Perfect Storm and Troja you will instantly notice the same style but not the same music (of course my argument here could be shattered within seconds if someone brings up TSFS and Aliens... )

 

[RoJoHen]

I wonder if Shatner's reputation hadn't evolved as it has, if that scene would still be ridiculed by some as it is today?

Doubt it. It's not that screaming that's the problem. It's the retarded face he makes when he does it.

 

[trevanian]

Yeah, what's with all the hating on James Horner? TWOK has a great, energetic score, esp. the increasingly dramatic music as Reliant closes in on Enterprise. The one I didn't like was his work on Aliens -- that sounded like TWOK lite. -- RR

If you listen to WOLFEN, you'll also hear the same music, and in the Jack Ryan films you get to hear Horner's rip on some 2001 classical stuff. Listen to any of his 80s action films and you'll hear the exact same music over and over again.

TWOK is a good score, but it is insanely derivative, just like pretty much every Horner score. To me, it is kind of like if Stephen King had no talent, but just changed the names of characters in Richard Matheson stories, but King still raked in millions from doing it. Horner doesn't seem creative at all. Not then and not now.

Horner writes very good music. Yes, he reuses a lot of his own stuff, but what great composer doesn't?
I mean have you listend to the stuff John Williams drools out these days? You could replace his action-music in 'Revenge of the Sith' with that from 'Minority Report' and no-one would notice it.

But if you compare Horner's music for TWOK, Titanic, The Perfect Storm and Troja you will instantly notice the same style but not the same music (of course my argument here could be shattered within seconds if someone brings up TSFS and Aliens... )

If you listen to a batch of 70s Goldsmith and disaster-era Williams, then listen to any of Horner's first dozen scores, you'll hear the same minor melodies, the same arrangements ... then you hear different melodies with the same arrangments, or the same melodies again with the same arrangements, by which time folks think he is only quoting himself, not realizing he is quoting his steals again ... You could go to a music score board and get details, or you can listen for yourself. This isn't a case of Basil lifting from a few classics for some of CONAN, this is huge.

 

[RyanKCR]

Yeah, what's with all the hating on James Horner? TWOK has a great, energetic score, esp. the increasingly dramatic music as Reliant closes in on Enterprise. The one I didn't like was his work on Aliens -- that sounded like TWOK lite. -- RR

If you listen to WOLFEN, you'll also hear the same music, and in the Jack Ryan films you get to hear Horner's rip on some 2001 classical stuff. Listen to any of his 80s action films and you'll hear the exact same music over and over again.

TWOK is a good score, but it is insanely derivative, just like pretty much every Horner score. To me, it is kind of like if Stephen King had no talent, but just changed the names of characters in Richard Matheson stories, but King still raked in millions from doing it. Horner doesn't seem creative at all. Not then and not now.

Horner writes very good music. Yes, he reuses a lot of his own stuff, but what great composer doesn't?
I mean have you listend to the stuff John Williams drools out these days? You could replace his action-music in 'Revenge of the Sith' with that from 'Minority Report' and no-one would notice it.

But if you compare Horner's music for TWOK, Titanic, The Perfect Storm and Troja you will instantly notice the same style but not the same music (of course my argument here could be shattered within seconds if someone brings up TSFS and Aliens... )

I have to say I love Horner's music, but if you listen to the music during Surprise attack when Spock is giving the initial damage report it is the same as a part in Cocoon and part of Shad's pursit in Battle Beyond the Stars (the movie he did that won him the ST II scoring job.)

 

[NCC-1701-B]

I dont think it is the best one, but its not the worst. I have seen it more than the others, probably because when i look through the films to watch one, it just pops out. I would enjoy the other films as much really, but i dont want to watch them as much. apart from first contact, because i love the Borg!!

 

[MyCylon]

I enjoy TWOK and definitely think it's one of the better Trek movies. But I never really understood why it's as popular as it is.

Personally, I far prefer TUC, which is easily my favorite Trek movie. I simply feel it has a much more interesting, more engaging and layered story that's also substantially more relevant to the Trek universe.

 

[Praetor]

TUC was my favorite for a while, but I always drift back to TWOK. I think it's interesting how it seems to have become trendy to bash both lately.

 

[RyuRoots]

I wonder if Shatner's reputation hadn't evolved as it has, if that scene would still be ridiculed by some as it is today?

Doubt it. It's not that screaming that's the problem. It's the retarded face he makes when he does it.

And the fact that they do it twice. I was snickering after the first one, but doing it again just...whoo.

I will say that after watching The Motion Picture recently, TWOK isn't lowest on the list anymore tho.

And that is indeed an unfortunate trend. I haven't been a part of the community for very long, so I hadn't noticed.

 

[Maurice]

TUC was my favorite for a while, but I always drift back to TWOK. I think it's interesting how it seems to have become trendy to bash both lately.

There's a difference between a trend and trendy. The former indicates the general direction that something is moving or changing. The latter is a verb that means "fashionable". I personally think there's a TREND to re-evaluate the films as we see them and compare them again and again. I don't agree that it's trendy/fashionable to do so, though I'm sure there are some who are bandwagon jumpers.

 

[Praetor]

I think you're onto something there, DS9Sega.

 

[Kruge]

Wrath of Khan is my very close-second favorite Trek film, and even though The Motion Picture is at the top of my list, TWOK is the only Trek film I can watch over and over and never get tired of...its like each time I watch it I notice something different...I've sadly watched the rest of the films too many times to enjoy them as much

 

[trevanian]

TUC was my favorite for a while, but I always drift back to TWOK. I think it's interesting how it seems to have become trendy to bash both lately.

There's a difference between a trend and trendy. The former indicates the general direction that something is moving or changing. The latter is a verb that means "fashionable". I personally think there's a TREND to re-evaluate the films as we see them and compare them again and again. I don't agree that it's trendy/fashionable to do so, though I'm sure there are some who are bandwagon jumpers.

I think the trend to re-evaluate is something is genuine, but that salespeople have co-opted into something trendy for the mainstream, as in, 'see, it is TIME to look at this again now that it is new & improved.'

I still believe that if tech evolved differently and Par put out the blu-ray TMP first, then only did the DE a few years later, that the largely positive (though IMO superficial) re-eval of TMP by the vast bored majority would have happened at the same time, but without them seeing the alleged real vision of Wise, just because it was high time for them to do so, and seeing the film in higher rez would have caught their interest even more than the new cut did.

I don't think I've changed my opinion massively on any Trek movie other than TMP; on TUC and GEN I've moved from hating them for specifics to deliberately overlooking those specifics (giving them a pass) for the sake of mildly-diverting entertainment, while the Nimoy films have never been faves. I always like TFF & TWOK, but it took several years for the irrational feeling of betrayal I had for most of TMP to go away.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

It's become trendy these days for Star Trek fans to hate on things they love.

A trend I'm only too happy to buck! -- RR

I think it's a trend in fanbases in general... "OMG! THIS SUXORS!" If there's a Star Wars BBS... well, you know what happens there...