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Regarding the plot [SPOILERS obviously]

dahj

Vice Admiral
Admiral
Anyone feel it's too derivative of Episode IV?

Don't get me wrong, I loved the film, I thought it was pretty much great, I'll very likely go see it again(which I almost never do), the new cast and characters they play are perfect for what I want in a SW movie, it's well directed, visually awesome, all around ace stuff...

...but I'm surprised virtually nobody is is complaining that the plot of the movie is essentially a carbon copy of A New Hope.
 
I kinda agree although I don't mind it. People are too busy being excited by their favorite characters being back, by the constant pulling of nostalgic heartstrings, and by seeing force powers & lightsaber duels again to really care about that.... yet. I think in time when the hype dies down it won't be held in such high of a regard. That said I think it's a very good movie, and it's similarities to A New Hope aren't it's biggest problems.

Then again we have no idea how the next two movies change the perceptions of this one, it could go either way.
 
...but I'm surprised virtually nobody is is complaining that the plot of the movie is essentially a carbon copy of A New Hope.
It's all about perspective I guess.
I've seen many, many people (including myself) address the similarities.
 
It is a complete take on A New Hope, but I think that's the point. It gives fans what they wanted to see, but opens the door for new and more complex plotting in the upcoming films. It was a commercial play on nostalgia, because that is what we wanted after the prequels, but offers enough new and engaging material to keep us interested in the future of the franchise.
 
Yeah, I noticed early on that they were working with ANH's plot structure, and it took me out of the movie a couple times. In the end, it wasn't a deal-breaker, but in my mind it keeps TFA from ever being as good as any OT movie, Ewoks or not.

Here's a run-down of TFA's plot structure (or is it ANH's?) that I posted in the "Complaints" thread...

  • The main character comes from a remote desert world and has mysterious parentage and unrealized Force potential.
  • The hero gets caught up in galactic events after encountering a droid with information vital in the battle against the enemy.
  • The hero and companions escape the desert world amidst a firefight in the Millenium Falcon.
  • The enemy builds a space station capable of destroying entire worlds, which is utilized against a world that supports their enemy.
  • Along the journey, our heroes travel to a bar filled with exotic aliens and live music as well as stage a rescue operation in the enemy station.
  • The mentor/father figure character was killed by the villain, with whom which he once had a close relationship.
  • The station is destroyed by a group of Starfighters exploiting an obvious weakness that was somehow overlooked.
  • In the end, the hero defeats the enemy after embracing the Force.

In the end, it was to the movie's detriment (especially the 3rd act), as the Starkiller story-line seemed like a tacked-on distraction.
 
It is a complete take on A New Hope, but I think that's the point. It gives fans what they wanted to see, but opens the door for new and more complex plotting in the upcoming films. It was a commercial play on nostalgia, because that is what we wanted after the prequels, but offers enough new and engaging material to keep us interested in the future of the franchise.

This exactly.

And now comes the tricky part..... It's up to each to decide for his own if that bothers them. Me, I didn't care so much, because it was such a highly entertaining movie. Some people will hate it for the same reasons though. And that's cool.

See, this isn't JUST about pleasing the older generation of fans. Some older/hardcore fans seems to be under the impression that this movie was made to please them. Never, ever believe that anything in your fandom is done for the fans. It's for the money. And Disney is quite aware that they need to bring in new fans aswell.
Now, the older guard... They made up their mind about this movie basicly a year before it was it released. But there's quite a few people out there that have never seen Star Wars, as shocking as that is to us.
So, making a lot of this similair to A New Hope is, from a commercial point of view, quite genious. Those new viewers that had just seen the OT for the first time, recognized a lot which helps drawing them in more ('Hey, this feels very similair to what I just saw, that's cool, it's the same). It's how most people react these days really, wanting more of what they like.
As for those that were purely intrigued by the trailers, but never saw a Star Wars movie in their lives..... Well, they saw a lot of what made us love A New Hope and Star Wars in the first place, so hopefully it will trigger the same effect and make them want more.

And as for those that would saw the similairities and complain.... Honestly, they are quite vocal, sure. But also a very small group compared to the millions and millions who loved TFA. JJ/Disney were aware that was going to happen, no doubt. But they are also not going to worry about a small minority when it comes to looking at how much this movie was going to make them, and the effect it would have on the franchise. Ask 100 people who've seen TFA if they will watch episode 8, and 99 will say either 'hell yeah' or most likely.Ofcourse that's exaggerated, but you get my point.
 
Yeah, I noticed early on that they were working with ANH's plot structure

It's not just big plot points that are knicked, all the small bits are there as well.
Besides all the thing you already mentioned, there's:

  • Falcon gets captured then escapes
  • Han Solo's creditors (almost) catching up to him
  • bad guy talks to a worse guy via hologram
  • the mentor is the one that confirms that the myth is real
  • rescue of a captured comrade from villains base
... and the odd scene that wasn't directly recreated was literally mentioned("Do you have a trash compactor?").

It does work though (at least for me) because the cast really sells it, so I don't mind that it's essentially a re-imagining of ANH, but I do hope that the next two parts(which I'm really looking forward to) will diverge from the OT.
 
<snip>...I do hope that the next two parts(which I'm really looking forward to) will diverge from the OT.

My predictions for Episode VIII from the "That thing" thread...

Rey will be training with Luke when Kylo Ren sets a trap for Rey using her friends as bait. Rey will go off to rescue her friends over the objections of Luke, who feels that she's not ready. Rey will be totally out-classed and when Ren has Rey at his mercy, he'll reveal the secret of her parentage. Also, there will be a cliff-hanger involving one of Rey's friends, probably Finn. ;)
 
If you loved the movie, what's the problem with it being a little derivative?

Most pop culture is derivative of something else. I'd say stop worrying about it if you really enjoyed the movie.
 
^^
The fact that it's not a problem is what I'm surprised about.

Usually when a film lifts that much from another film audiences and critics alike can't wait to poop on it...
 
...but I'm surprised virtually nobody is is complaining that the plot of the movie is essentially a carbon copy of A New Hope.

Virtually nobody? You aren't looking hard enough. Plenty of people have complained about this.

http://www.vox.com/2015/12/26/10664834/star-force-awakens-derivative

I think Abrams intentionally copied the plot structure from ANH. Whether it is because he felt that's what fans wanted to see, or because he thought it would be a good way of honoring the original while offering something new is anybody's guess. I don't think he discussed this at all in interviews, but I don't really follow them either.

In any event, The Phantom Menace was a similar, though not as successful attempt to recreate A New Hope.
 
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...but I'm surprised virtually nobody is is complaining that the plot of the movie is essentially a carbon copy of A New Hope.

Virtually nobody? You aren't looking hard enough. Plenty of people have complained about this.

http://www.vox.com/2015/12/26/10664834/star-force-awakens-derivative

I think Abrams intentionally copied the plot structure from ANH. Whether it is because he felt that's what fans wanted to see, or because he thought it would be a good way of honoring the original while offering something new is anybody's guess. I don't think he discussed this at all in interviews, but I don't really follow them either.

In any event, The Phantom Menace was a similar, though not as successful attempt to recreate A New Hope.

Abrams did something very similar in Into Darkness. He just seems to enjoy recreating things from his own childhood.
 
Anyone feel it's too derivative of Episode IV?

Don't get me wrong, I loved the film, I thought it was pretty much great, I'll very likely go see it again(which I almost never do), the new cast and characters they play are perfect for what I want in a SW movie, it's well directed, visually awesome, all around ace stuff...

...but I'm surprised virtually nobody is is complaining that the plot of the movie is essentially a carbon copy of A New Hope.

Plenty have said it's pretty much a copy of ANH, and argue it's maybe the "weakest" part of the movie.

But another argument would be...

Didn't you *like* the first movie? Well, then this one just follows the formula you liked the first time around and it changes enough of the elements like the characters, the setting and some plot details here and there for it to be somewhat fresh.

Yeah, a new and different plot would have been nice but, then, .... the prequels. This movie was a chance for those behind the scenes to show they could handle the responsibility behind the franchise and the best way to do that is, really, to go with a formula that obviously works. The second movie is a chance to do something a bit different and play with the formula a bit more.

But here, they had to show they can handle it so best to not play with fire.
 
Didn't you *like* the first movie? Well, then this one just follows the formula you liked the first time around and it changes enough of the elements like the characters, the setting and some plot details here and there for it to be somewhat fresh.

And when I want to see that formula, I'll put on the first movie. Not to mention that to enjoy the "somewhat fresh" new version, I have to not be pulled out of the action every time they explicitly call back to the first film, then highlight the call back, then text the call back to your phone to make sure you really got it this time.

I still enjoyed myself, but that was IN SPITE of the film's attempts to milk nostalgia, not because of them.
 
Didn't you *like* the first movie? Well, then this one just follows the formula you liked the first time around and it changes enough of the elements like the characters, the setting and some plot details here and there for it to be somewhat fresh.

And when I want to see that formula, I'll put on the first movie. Not to mention that to enjoy the "somewhat fresh" new version, I have to not be pulled out of the action every time they explicitly call back to the first film, then highlight the call back, then text the call back to your phone to make sure you really got it this time.

I still enjoyed myself, but that was IN SPITE of the film's attempts to milk nostalgia, not because of them.

The only callback that was actually groan worthy was when they decided to toss Captain Phasma into the trash compactor and everyone spends a minute grinning and winking at the camera. Most of the others weren't bad, there was just too many of them. Using the old 1970s computer graphics on the Falcon's targeting scopes was a bit much and just made me wonder what would happen if the were fighting something other than TIE fighters.
 
Yeah, I think the winking at the camera on the trash compactor thing was probably the most egregious "call back" everything else was much more subtle.

As for the GUI for the targeting system, I liked that it had the 1970s/80s computer graphics interface. It was consistent and just went to show how much of an old piece-of-junk the Falcon was seen to be.

And when I want to see that formula, I'll put on the first movie.

True. But there's still enough differences in this movie's plot alone to make it not a complete re-tread of ANH, but even just having new and different characters can take a direct rip-off of ANH a little more different and interesting.

It's only scantly similar to ANH in the "person more powerful than they may realize is put on a mission to destroy a world-annihilating spherical weapon."

It also sort of ignores that destroying the Starkiller wasn't even the plot or story of this movie. Our characters have almost nothing to do with it, at least not on the level of Luke in ANH. Their job was to simply go down there, turn off the shield, save Ray, and get out of there. They went off on their own to destroy the reactor more to help the squadron in orbit. The story is more about Rey's arc, Finn's arc and Kylo's arc, the ANH-derivative stuff was just the backdrop.

Yes, for the sake of the plot of this trilogy and for keeping the New Republic contiguous, yes, they needed to destroy the Starkiller for the story but this movie's story is really all about Rey and Ben/Kylo, to a lesser degree Fin and then to an even lesser degree Han. It's about the characters so what's going on around them doesn't really matter, seeing our characters deal with things and their personal journeys matter more.

Ray dealing with her past and moving forward with a greater goal in her life. (In ANH, Luke only wants to stay on Tatooine because of his family there, here Rey wants to stay on NotTatooine because of her emotional connections and delusions that her family is coming back for her there when she really has no tangible, or reasonable, cause to stay.) And it's clear there's more to her past than we, or she, knows. By the end of ANH for the most part Luke's arc is complete (since the ANH wasn't made with the notion of there being a sequel.)

Finn is a defected Storm Trooper is there anyone he's analogous to in the OT? So there's more to him, how was he able to overcome his conditioning and reprogramming? We know why he fears The First Order and why he wants to get far, far away from it but what else does he feel is out there for him? What's going to keep him around going forward?

Kylo Ren (and I'm sure I'm butchering his name, I can't remember these bizarre Star Wars names) is a vastly more complex character than his OT counterpart, Darth Vader. He's obviously conflicted when it comes to the Force but seems to have dedicated himself to going to the Dark Side. But he seems to want to hold himself back a bit from this anger, which may be why he directs his anger towards the walls and computers as opposed to his subordinates.) But what is driving him? What happened between him and Han or him and Luke that pushed him to the Dark Side? Or who lured him that way?

Han's a little more complex here too, from his failed marriage to Leia and him likely seeing himself as a failure to his son in how he raised him. Did *he* do something to push "Ben" to the dark side?

Leia dealing with her side of things with "Ben."

We'll likely get into Luke's side of things with "Ben."

There's a lot going on here characterwise than there was an ANH which was strictly "these people are bad, these people are good, this guy is sort of on the line" type of story. It was Good vs. Evil.

Here? We've got a bit more going on with the characters, yeah we're still dealing with Good vs. Evil, that's just story telling 101. But where are characters are and what they're doing is deeper than the characters in ANH. Luke wants to be a Jedi like his father before him, wants to join the resistance and save freedom.

Rey's on a deeper search for herself, her past and her future.
 
I can see where people can say that it's similar to ANH in terms of the plot/structure but it's still got plenty of fresh new characters and situations that I didn't feel that it was a straight out-and-out remake or "reboot" of ANH. I just hope that they slow things down for the next movie and expand on some of the characters/storylines that they established in TFA. I'm extremely curious to see what will happen with the apparent destruction of the Senate (what is the state of the New Republic now?) and the current state of the First Order after the destruction of Starkiller base. Although I loved the movie, it almost moved too quickly and threw so many things at us that it was somewhat difficult to absorb. Still exciting as hell to have a new Star Wars, however, ten years after being told that there would be no more Star Wars movies ever!
 
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