Crunch all you want, he'll just make more. Beyond that, I wouldn't exactly call it harmless. Also, the Narada is a Romulan ship, which carries its own implications.
Regarding Nero and Romulus
- Thread starter Nusent
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Crunch all you want, he'll just make more. Beyond that, I wouldn't exactly call it harmless. Also, the Narada is a Romulan ship, which carries its own implications.
Regarding the infamous defence codes: The first thing to realise is they aren’t important. Nero was quite happy to attack Earth (and Vulcan) with out them. He only picked them up by accident when he realised who might be on the Enterprise (Spock, not Pike). Ie, he wasn't even trying to get them! They only became important as a way of incapacitating Pike so Kirk would get permanently promoted to captain of the Enterprise (the main goal of the movie).
Second, why would you give a captain the ability to, as Timo put it, "switch off" planetary system defences? At best such codes would be a friend or foe recognition system that would prevent the defences jumping to alert status whenever a ship approaches. There should still be numerous people in the system capable of overriding it when they saw what was approaching. In fact, when the Narada got close enough that they could tell it wasn’t the Enterprise (which shouldn’t be very close at all!), alarms should go off automatically (not that Nero would care apparently).
Second, why would you give a captain the ability to, as Timo put it, "switch off" planetary system defences? At best such codes would be a friend or foe recognition system that would prevent the defences jumping to alert status whenever a ship approaches. There should still be numerous people in the system capable of overriding it when they saw what was approaching. In fact, when the Narada got close enough that they could tell it wasn’t the Enterprise (which shouldn’t be very close at all!), alarms should go off automatically (not that Nero would care apparently).
How do we know? The two times we saw him attempting the kidnapping of an information source, he was 100% successful. That was his MO, really: in all of his spacecraft encounters, he never passed an opportunity to kidnap somebody.
As for switching off, that would obviously not work very well. But a more devious and realistic way to use the codes would be to gain the authority to insert a piece of programming that destroyed the defenses. That's a viable approach to information warfare today, actively being investigated by all sides; it's been demonstrated already that a supposedly "protected" power grid control system can be told to physically destroy the system's converters, generators and backups with carefully designed operating commands. By real-world example and dramatically plausible analogy, Nero could well have computer programs that are fantastically in advance of 23rd century defenses, even when we see that his hardware isn't all that fantastic in comparison.
Timo Saloniemi
I would say we know because he made no attempt to get the codes from the first seven (?) ships to arrive at Vulcan. If he had tried and failed, he wouldn't have been so quick to attack the Enterprise when it turned up late. I repeat, he spared the Enterprise not because he had to get the codes from Pike, but because he believed NuSpock was on board. Even if you argue that only the flagship captain would have the codes (slightly more sensible but not much) Nero ordered the attack before he just happened to notice it was the Enterprise. I.e. he wasn’t even looking for the codes! Therefore we can be sure the codes were not important to Nero’s plans.
I can't see Star Fleet, who would know about that possibility, just giving out access to their defences to every captain in the fleet, inviting just the sort of issue the film suggests (but Nero doesn’t need). It just doesn’t make sense to me for Star Fleet to turn every captain into a potential "back door" into the defences of Earth irrespective of the methods you go on to relate.
I still contend the codes, as presented, are both unimportant (by the information available in the film) and nonsensical operationally.
I very much agree, Nero must have felt "well I have Pike, might as well". All it would really do, would make things easier for him. I forget that exact number of Klingon ships Uhura said had been destroyed by Nero's ship but it was a considerable amount, whatever Starfleets defences were in that timeline, it obviously stood no match against Neros ship anyway.
47.
Yet a single vintage Starfleet cruiser nearly crippled the Narada. Nero took out 54 ships in a twenty-four hour period, yet no one thought to simply ram him.
I really hope the new comic gives us something worthwhile to discuss. Not sure I can stomach deciphering Nero's strategy and motivations for another two years.
47.
Yet a single vintage Starfleet cruiser nearly crippled the Narada. Nero took out 54 ships in a twenty-four hour period, yet no one thought to simply ram him.
I really hope the new comic gives us something worthwhile to discuss. Not sure I can stomach deciphering Nero's strategy and motivations for another two years.
eh, this scenario of a massive fleet going up against a single ship with no one thinking to "just ram 'em" has come up before, most glaringly in BOBW, so it's hardly a knock on TREK XI specifically.
47.
Yet a single vintage Starfleet cruiser nearly crippled the Narada. Nero took out 54 ships in a twenty-four hour period, yet no one thought to simply ram him.
I really hope the new comic gives us something worthwhile to discuss. Not sure I can stomach deciphering Nero's strategy and motivations for another two years.
eh, this scenario of a massive fleet going up against a single ship with no one thinking to "just ram 'em" has come up before, most glaringly in BOBW, so it's hardly a knock on TREK XI specifically.
But we don't know if they strategy had been effective against the Borg or not. Because we don't know whether anyone tried it or not.
But we do know that the strategy is effective against the Narada.
47.
Yet a single vintage Starfleet cruiser nearly crippled the Narada. Nero took out 54 ships in a twenty-four hour period, yet no one thought to simply ram him.
I really hope the new comic gives us something worthwhile to discuss. Not sure I can stomach deciphering Nero's strategy and motivations for another two years.
eh, this scenario of a massive fleet going up against a single ship with no one thinking to "just ram 'em" has come up before, most glaringly in BOBW, so it's hardly a knock on TREK XI specifically.
But we don't know if they strategy had been effective against the Borg or not. Because we don't know whether anyone tried it or not.
But we do know that the strategy is effective against the Narada.
I guess you're right, but it at least occurs to Riker right before Data has his "sleep" breakthrough, so it should've occurred to some folks at Wolf 359.
were the ships the Narada took out supposed to have been taken out all around the same time or spaced out over a day?
if it was the same time, maybe the battle was over too quickly. If spaced out, they might not have thought they had a reason to because they didn't get previous reports of the damage the Narada had done.
it's all unlikely i'm just speculating.
Not really. Nero might always have been planning on getting the codes, which would mean that he couldn't count on getting them from the starships that might or might not attack him; he would have some other target at the crosshairs for his ubiquitous kidnap-and-interrogate routine. He'd simply drop that target when Pike accidentally dropped on his lap, then.
Some access would have to be given, lest those defenses shoot down Starfleet's own starships.
Nero wouldn't be needing a string of numbers that paralyzes the entire Starfleet ("1-2-3-4-5... That's amazing! I've got the same combination on my luggage!"). He'd only need the sort of everyday access a Starfleet employee of relatively high rank possesses, so that he could infiltrate the system and start wreaking havoc from within. That's a realistic scenario for today already...
Starfleet learned of a "space storm" at 2200 hours; that storm apparently marked Spock Prime's arrival to the 23rd century, just like the previous one had marked Nero's arrival. Starfleet learned of the Klingon defeat at 2300 hours.
If Nero defeated the Klingons after capturing Spock, there's no "spacing out". But that allows Nero to defeat them with the help of red matter obtained from Spock, which makes a single devastating victory plausible. Also, that sort of helps explain why Nero fought the Klingons in the first place - perhaps Klingons controlled the space where Spock arrived (like they apparently had controlled the space where Nero arrived, being mere 75000 km away from the spot according to Kelvin walla), so a confrontation was inevitable?
If Nero defeated the Klingons before capturing Spock, and Starfleet merely learned of the fact somewhat belatedly, there could be plenty of "spacing out". And that would allow Nero to defeat the Klingons without red matter. Again, Nero might have fought the Klingons in order to reach Spock; a series of duels instead of one massive battle would be a logical way for that to play out.
There's also always the possibility that Nero fought the Klingons for some reason related to the prison planet whose message Starfleet intercepted. Such as the original story concept where Nero escaped from said prison just moments before Spock's arrival - a concept totally erased from the aired version, and one that fails to explain why and how Nero got the Narada back.
Timo Saloniemi
Well, Nero had seven or eight opportunities dropped into his lap but he takes none of them deliberately for that primary reason. What his actions show is that getting the codes are of much less importance that rubbing NuSpock’s nose in the destruction of Vulcan. So not exactly vital. And if Nero did have a plan to get the codes, then attacking ships that came to Vuclan’s rescue would be a front runner surely? What other softer target could Nero reasonably expect to find? Given that getting access to Star Fleets systems is as easy as Nero makes it seem, how much more incompetent of SF would it be to have even more sure-fire ways available?
As I said, a simple friend or foe recognition system would take care of that without (as far as I can see) any need to access anything. Worse for Nero, as I also said, the Narada wouldn’t match the Enterprise's codes.
I find it hard to believe that in over 200 years SF wouldn’t come up with some system of ensuring the person using the codes is legitimate. Making sure that they are on a SF vessel for a start perhaps? Otherwise you are just asking for trouble form any clued up Klingon or Romulan fleet that stops by.
Targets softer than combat starships? Is that a trick question?
It's of course plausible that Nero would torture Pike just for fun. But since we so completely lack an explanation to how Nero could avoid getting shot down by a Vulcan kid's toy phaser or a Starfleet cadet's heritage laser rifle, the "he had the defense codes" angle should IMHO be milked to the utmost. Nero had 25 years to plan his revenge; even if he were no soldier and not particularly sane, either, he would have known his enemy to some degree and would have devised a fairly systematic plan to defeat that enemy.
Why the 200-year clause? We should have that assurance today already. But we don't, since it's a rat race between attack and defense. And Nero happens to have more than a century's advantage in the race...
(Say, retina scans, a known verification tech from the 2280s, would be trivially beaten by the sort of holograms we see in the 2370s.)
Timo Saloniemi
Yeah, I guess it is. But Nero make it seem so easy! 
Anyway Nero has 25 years to become a cutting edge physicist and an expert hacker but absent mindedly leaves picking up the defence codes to the last moment? I know they are going to have a shelf life but lets just say I'm not convinced.
I was thinking of your original suggestion that "…that a supposedly "protected" power grid control system can be told to physically destroy the system's converters, generators and backups with carefully designed operating commands.". Seems like those kind of problems could be minimised or eliminated with careful thought which may not have been applied yet. In Star Fleet you wouldn’t want a captain to have too great an access capability anyway. Too dangerous.
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