Regarding Nero and Romulus
- Thread starter Nusent
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Though Nero may not actually be aware of this, in fact it's likely he attributed a more active role to Romulus' destruction than mere passive inaction: that the Vulcans somehow prevented Romulus from cultivating their OWN red matter and then refusing to contribute their own when Romulus really needed it.
The same way the layman human knows of nuclear weapons?
But prior to it's usage, how many laypeople even knew it existed? Even those who knew of it more than likely didn't know how it worked. How would Nero even know that Spock would have any leftover Red Matter when he emerged from the Black Hole? Then how did they know how to use it? I doubt Spock Prime gave up the secrets on how to safely use the Red Matter.
I actually suspect that red matter is something the Romulans have been using as part of their engine technology for a while now, probably the basis of their quantum-singularity warp cores.
If the Romulans are the only ones who have it, then they might have intended to use it to save themselves and leave everyone else to burn. Spock convinced them to give HIM all the red matter they could muster in order to save everyone else as well, but he had to promise to save Romulus first. That he failed to do so might be interpretted--by a psychotic paranoid Romulan--as intentional subterfuge. After all, Nero did say "He didn't help us, he betrayed us!"
If it were a Sulu piloting the Jellyfish, you'd have a point. Spock isn't just a pilot. He's a brilliant scientist with expertise is almost every field. It's inconceivable that he wouldn't have basic literacy about red matter.
If he's been living on Romulus since the episode Unification, him would he be 'in the know' on scientific developments on Vulcan. Countdown makes it seem he's pretty much estranged from Vulcan at the time the movie takes place.
In that case, it's a bit unlikely he would be given this supervessel and this superweapon. Even if the former were by an amazing coincidence designed by a friend of a friend, as the comic tries to suggest.
It does seem that the resources given to Spock were exceptional. If red matter were available anywhere else, everybody would have had an interest in using it against the supernova, yet Spock appeared to be the sole champion. And even random foreign civilians such as Nero were aware of his champion role. This latter fact suggests that Spock had ample time to prepare. Which raises the question of why he needed a superfast vessel. If he intended to stop a well-scheduled calamity, he'd do it with plenty of time to spare, and if events conspired to delay his personal schedule (say, Vulcan didn't hand over the red matter in time), it's unlikely he could compensate by procuring a superfast vessel (least of all by having one constructed, even though we do see a strange image of the ship under construction or tear-down).
If, OTOH, he was taken by surprise by the very scheduling of the supernova event, then there's relatively little logic for him to have compensated for this in advance by purchasing a superfast ship. If he didn't know he'd be late, he wouldn't prepare for the eventuality. Being in a fast ship doesn't help at all if you don't know how to launch in time.
The thing is, Spock only appears to realize he's late when Romulus is lost, not before. And even after this, Spock seems to be on a very tight schedule if he wants to stop the supernova effect. Do we have to assume that the supership was necessary for chasing the superfast (i.e. high warp) wavefront of the supernova?
Timo Saloniemi
It does seem that the resources given to Spock were exceptional. If red matter were available anywhere else, everybody would have had an interest in using it against the supernova, yet Spock appeared to be the sole champion. And even random foreign civilians such as Nero were aware of his champion role. This latter fact suggests that Spock had ample time to prepare. Which raises the question of why he needed a superfast vessel. If he intended to stop a well-scheduled calamity, he'd do it with plenty of time to spare, and if events conspired to delay his personal schedule (say, Vulcan didn't hand over the red matter in time), it's unlikely he could compensate by procuring a superfast vessel (least of all by having one constructed, even though we do see a strange image of the ship under construction or tear-down).
If, OTOH, he was taken by surprise by the very scheduling of the supernova event, then there's relatively little logic for him to have compensated for this in advance by purchasing a superfast ship. If he didn't know he'd be late, he wouldn't prepare for the eventuality. Being in a fast ship doesn't help at all if you don't know how to launch in time.
The thing is, Spock only appears to realize he's late when Romulus is lost, not before. And even after this, Spock seems to be on a very tight schedule if he wants to stop the supernova effect. Do we have to assume that the supership was necessary for chasing the superfast (i.e. high warp) wavefront of the supernova?
Timo Saloniemi
Yes, it doesn't really make sense that Spock was the sole pilot of the Jellyfish (it would have been a simple matter to show Nero executing the others) any more than it made sense for Kirk and Spock to beam over to the Narada on their own. The obsession with letting the leads do everything regardless of how silly that would be is something I wish they would grow out of quickly. The leads can grow and be showcased even if other characters are present.
The supernova can't be a normal event or there would be years to fix it. Of course, if was ftl then Spock would have to match its speed and stay ahead of it (he appears to be flying towards it). How Nero managed to get there at the exact same time has to be placed in the same box as how Kirk stumbled into Spock in a cave. The universe did it.
The supernova can't be a normal event or there would be years to fix it. Of course, if was ftl then Spock would have to match its speed and stay ahead of it (he appears to be flying towards it). How Nero managed to get there at the exact same time has to be placed in the same box as how Kirk stumbled into Spock in a cave. The universe did it.
Actually, a two-man stealth attack on Narada makes a lot of sense. That was the intent - to beam into an empty cargo hold and sneak around.
...Plus, they knew the special beaming technique worked on two people (more or less). Recalibrating something they had no real understanding of might have been a costly mistake!
If the supernova happened ten lightminutes away from Romulus (i.e. it was the Romulan homestar), it would only be natural that quite a few Romulan ships would be around the place at the crucial hour, and that some of them would be saved by Spock's stopping of the expanding destruction.
In that case, the event could obey known laws of physics, which is always a bonus if it doesn't endanger drama. Furthermore, Spock would be aware of those laws (such as lightspeed propagation of destruction), so him being late would be the result of him guessing wrong on the detonation moment. If the window for rescue were mere minutes, then a fast ship would also be useful because travel time to the rescue location would be significantly longer than the rescue window; Spock could plausibly place a few calls, secure a preexisting supership, and take off and head for Romulus when (but not before) the threatening burps from the star made the impending calamity too obvious to be ignored even by stubborn Romulan and Vulcan politicians.
Also, the supernova could be stopped by intuitively appealing "symmetric" means, by dropping the red matter at the very center of the phenomenon while still being in close proximity of planet Romulus. Proper timing would allow Eisn to die a dignified death that made possible the evacuation of Romulus; a black hole would be a less immediate threat than a supernova wavefront, and it's even possible that Eisn might be stabilized rather than blackholed if Spock were able to perform his stellar surgery with due care.
The single major problem with that interpretation is that the supernova explosion would hardly threaten the entire galaxy physically. Yet dialogue makes it clear that the explosion did present a danger beyond Romulus, because Spock still had to act after Romulus was lost.
The two-step dance around that would involve saying that the galaxy was threatened by the political ramifications, not by the wavefront; and that Spock had to act to save the rest of the Romulan star system (perhaps including Remus, which seems to orbit a bit farther out as seen in ST:NEM) or because the blob of red matter he had extracted and primed was unstable and would blow on his face unless he dumped it somewhere (and dumping it into the supernova would be logical, as it would stop further calamities in the decades ahead).
Timo Saloniemi
If the supernova happened ten lightminutes away from Romulus (i.e. it was the Romulan homestar), it would only be natural that quite a few Romulan ships would be around the place at the crucial hour, and that some of them would be saved by Spock's stopping of the expanding destruction.
In that case, the event could obey known laws of physics, which is always a bonus if it doesn't endanger drama. Furthermore, Spock would be aware of those laws (such as lightspeed propagation of destruction), so him being late would be the result of him guessing wrong on the detonation moment. If the window for rescue were mere minutes, then a fast ship would also be useful because travel time to the rescue location would be significantly longer than the rescue window; Spock could plausibly place a few calls, secure a preexisting supership, and take off and head for Romulus when (but not before) the threatening burps from the star made the impending calamity too obvious to be ignored even by stubborn Romulan and Vulcan politicians.
Also, the supernova could be stopped by intuitively appealing "symmetric" means, by dropping the red matter at the very center of the phenomenon while still being in close proximity of planet Romulus. Proper timing would allow Eisn to die a dignified death that made possible the evacuation of Romulus; a black hole would be a less immediate threat than a supernova wavefront, and it's even possible that Eisn might be stabilized rather than blackholed if Spock were able to perform his stellar surgery with due care.
The single major problem with that interpretation is that the supernova explosion would hardly threaten the entire galaxy physically. Yet dialogue makes it clear that the explosion did present a danger beyond Romulus, because Spock still had to act after Romulus was lost.
The two-step dance around that would involve saying that the galaxy was threatened by the political ramifications, not by the wavefront; and that Spock had to act to save the rest of the Romulan star system (perhaps including Remus, which seems to orbit a bit farther out as seen in ST:NEM) or because the blob of red matter he had extracted and primed was unstable and would blow on his face unless he dumped it somewhere (and dumping it into the supernova would be logical, as it would stop further calamities in the decades ahead).
Timo Saloniemi
^ First of all, why do people keep saying they used transwarp beaming to enter the Narada? The whole point of transwarp beaming is that the other ship is AT WARP. Narada wasn't. It actually seems they used an ordinary transport mode.
Second of all, Spock is communicating all of this through a mind meld, and quite a few of the "facts" he presents to Kirk are both highly compressed and highly interpretive, more a kaleidescope of concepts than actual recollections. There's the strong possibility that the explosion of the star "threatened to destroy the galaxy" by virtue of its position and the political ramifications of its destination; that Romulus, under threat of extinction, decided to go out fighting and launched a genocidal war against everyone, everywhere, hoping to secure what territory they could before the supernova (eventually) caught up with them. In that case, Spock's promise to save Romulus would have been a promise made in exchange for their halting their militaristic death rattle.
The only thing that doesn't work (in any scenario, really) is the timing. I have said and still say that this is adequately explained by Spock using the breakaway timewarp to hoover the star BEFORE it exploded, only to be intercepted by Nero who, having followed him through the timewarp, had no idea what was going on and simply blamed Spock for seemingly to let Romulus be destroyed.
Second of all, Spock is communicating all of this through a mind meld, and quite a few of the "facts" he presents to Kirk are both highly compressed and highly interpretive, more a kaleidescope of concepts than actual recollections. There's the strong possibility that the explosion of the star "threatened to destroy the galaxy" by virtue of its position and the political ramifications of its destination; that Romulus, under threat of extinction, decided to go out fighting and launched a genocidal war against everyone, everywhere, hoping to secure what territory they could before the supernova (eventually) caught up with them. In that case, Spock's promise to save Romulus would have been a promise made in exchange for their halting their militaristic death rattle.
The only thing that doesn't work (in any scenario, really) is the timing. I have said and still say that this is adequately explained by Spock using the breakaway timewarp to hoover the star BEFORE it exploded, only to be intercepted by Nero who, having followed him through the timewarp, had no idea what was going on and simply blamed Spock for seemingly to let Romulus be destroyed.
To be sure, we don't know whether the Narada is at warp or not when passing Titan. Other heroes in other Trek incarnations have only slowed down to impulse at Saturn, or then proceeded at warp all the way to Earth and perhaps beyond.
Also, our heroes appear to beam into a shielded ship. That is, in previous battles, transporting was not an option because of the jamming effect of the drill, and the question of whether Nero's ship had shields or not never arose because nobody had much chance to fire at him. But just before the destruction of the Narada, special mention is made of her shields having gone down, so we should assume they would normally be up.
We're left unsure, then, on whether beaming through shields (including 24th century civilian ones) is routine for 2250s Starfleet transporters, or whether Spock Prime's modifications were a key ingredient in allowing Scotty to insert and extract our heroes.
It would IMHO be a bit weird if the limitation on beaming through shields were lifted in Abrams Trek; it sounds like a necessary one, as transporters would otherwise solve pretty much every plot complication before any drama arose.
The idea of Spock deliberately going back in time (either by slingshotting, or then by using red matter timeholes to the desired effect) and then overshooting due to Nero's misguided interference is a cool one. It doesn't adequately explain why Spock would only have a few moments to act after Romulus was destroyed, though. If Spock were capable of deliberate and controlled time travel, time would be a commodity he had available in any quantity he desired!
Timo Saloniemi
Also, our heroes appear to beam into a shielded ship. That is, in previous battles, transporting was not an option because of the jamming effect of the drill, and the question of whether Nero's ship had shields or not never arose because nobody had much chance to fire at him. But just before the destruction of the Narada, special mention is made of her shields having gone down, so we should assume they would normally be up.
We're left unsure, then, on whether beaming through shields (including 24th century civilian ones) is routine for 2250s Starfleet transporters, or whether Spock Prime's modifications were a key ingredient in allowing Scotty to insert and extract our heroes.
It would IMHO be a bit weird if the limitation on beaming through shields were lifted in Abrams Trek; it sounds like a necessary one, as transporters would otherwise solve pretty much every plot complication before any drama arose.
The idea of Spock deliberately going back in time (either by slingshotting, or then by using red matter timeholes to the desired effect) and then overshooting due to Nero's misguided interference is a cool one. It doesn't adequately explain why Spock would only have a few moments to act after Romulus was destroyed, though. If Spock were capable of deliberate and controlled time travel, time would be a commodity he had available in any quantity he desired!
Timo Saloniemi
Ah, I fumbled this one: the reason we don't see the flight status of the Narada during the beam-over is because the evil vessel has already arrived at Earth and is at standstill there, having lowered her drill but not yet activated it.
Which gives the transporters another new and intriguing ability: that of penetrating enemy shields while crossing the distance from Saturn to Earth! That's another ability the standard Starfleet transporters in STXII hopefully will not possess, and thus another reason to believe that Spock Prime's (i.e. Scotty Prime's) long-reaching invention is being used here!
Timo Saloniemi
Which gives the transporters another new and intriguing ability: that of penetrating enemy shields while crossing the distance from Saturn to Earth! That's another ability the standard Starfleet transporters in STXII hopefully will not possess, and thus another reason to believe that Spock Prime's (i.e. Scotty Prime's) long-reaching invention is being used here!
Timo Saloniemi
They beamed from Titan to Earth, which is beyond normal transporter range.
Timo said:
Thus, Spock's dialogue contradicts the theory that the time travel preceded the supernova.
Did the Narada have to lower shields in order to drop the drill platform?
We might plausibly argue that our heroes know nothing about the shielding capabilities of the Narada at that point. Whenever they are in a position to observe, the Narada is jamming them with the drill noise, or their own ship is shot to hell and potentially blind and deaf.
OTOH, why should the heroes assume the enemy lacks shields? Nero has been victorious in the past, and victory probably implies shielding. Either our heroes believe that shields never interfere with transporters, or then they take note of Nero having a civilian ship (albeit armed) and decide that civilian shields never interfere with military transporters.
It's up to us to choose whether the heroes are thinking "standard transporters" or "transwarp transporters" at that point... But if the latter, they are being awfully cocksure with a new and alien technology, not mentioning its potential limitations once.
Timo Saloniemi
OTOH, why should the heroes assume the enemy lacks shields? Nero has been victorious in the past, and victory probably implies shielding. Either our heroes believe that shields never interfere with transporters, or then they take note of Nero having a civilian ship (albeit armed) and decide that civilian shields never interfere with military transporters.
It's up to us to choose whether the heroes are thinking "standard transporters" or "transwarp transporters" at that point... But if the latter, they are being awfully cocksure with a new and alien technology, not mentioning its potential limitations once.
Timo Saloniemi
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