Refit Grill Question

[bigjimslade]

Reference pictures of the refit's grill show a trapazoid pattern in towards the upper inner area of the grill.

Some sources show the grill as widening to create the pattern. However, some pictures appear to show the grill as being uniform all the way across.

It appears to me that the "widening" pattern may be created by the digitizing processess. There may be a pattern behind the grill that, when merge in a digital image, appears as a widening.

Unfortunately, the best photos of the model come from the Christie's auction, at which time the grill is gone.

I was wondering if anyone knows what the actual struture was on the model that results in the widening effect.

 

[RobertVA]

I suppose you're referring to the "1701 nil" refit as seen in the first three films. I'm not sure what you mean by the "Grill". The forward end of the warp nacelles? The pattern on the inboard or outboard sides of the nacelles?The "Flush Vents" on the Nacelle pylons? If these are what you are inquiring about, why the singular "grill" instead of the plural"grills"?

 

[bigjimslade]

I suppose you're referring to the "1701 nil" refit as seen in the first three films. I'm not sure what you mean by the "Grill". The forward end of the warp nacelles? The pattern on the inboard or outboard sides of the nacelles?The "Flush Vents" on the Nacelle pylons? If these are what you are inquiring about, why the singular "grill" instead of the plural"grills"?

I am referring to the grills on the impulse engine. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STMPEnterprise/ColorPhotos/cSTMPent30.jpg

http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STMPEnterprise/STMPent27.jpg

 

[Cary L. Brown]

http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STMPEnterprise/ColorPhotos/cSTMPent30.jpg

http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STMPEnterprise/STMPent27.jpg

Those photos are great... thanks for posting them.

FYI, it would be very easy to assume that what you're seeing there is 2-dimensional detail... it, a lightened area on the exhaust with a surrounding darker area. But I've never seen anything which makes that evident.

Instead, to me, what I'm looking at is more likely an internal BOX behind those grills. The "light" area is the foremost region of the box interior.

As likely as not, the box interior was very white and intended to scatter light to make the engines look like they had a uniform light source rather than a "point light" you might otherwise make out, while still allowing some fall-off near the sides.

Does anyone here have info on the actual physical construction of that part of the model? Or any particularly clear images of those from significantly different angles which might prove (or disprove) my supposition?

 

[trevanian]

http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STMPEnterprise/ColorPhotos/cSTMPent30.jpg

http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STMPEnterprise/STMPent27.jpg

Those photos are great... thanks for posting them.

FYI, it would be very easy to assume that what you're seeing there is 2-dimensional detail... it, a lightened area on the exhaust with a surrounding darker area. But I've never seen anything which makes that evident.

Instead, to me, what I'm looking at is more likely an internal BOX behind those grills. The "light" area is the foremost region of the box interior.

As likely as not, the box interior was very white and intended to scatter light to make the engines look like they had a uniform light source rather than a "point light" you might otherwise make out, while still allowing some fall-off near the sides.

Does anyone here have info on the actual physical construction of that part of the model? Or any particularly clear images of those from significantly different angles which might prove (or disprove) my supposition?

I really don't remember where I came across the info, so who knows if it is or ever was accurate, but the grills were supposed to be vanes/louvres that DIRECTED the impulse output. (Only reason I remember was that I seized on this for a TNG pitch about an impulse control being sabotaged so the vanes would close during a saucer sep, leaving the saucer to be plundered by Ferengi or somesuch.)

Anyways, I'd agree that the smaller boxes 'inside' the sections containing the louvres would be the actual impulse engines, and therefore that would be where the glow would come from if you had all your designers and model guys and optical guys on the same page (fat chance of that, I know, but that does seem borne out by the trekcore cap of the impulse lighting off.)

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tmp/themotionpicture0415.jpg

 

[bigjimslade]

http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STMPEnterprise/ColorPhotos/cSTMPent30.jpg

http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STMPEnterprise/STMPent27.jpg

Instead, to me, what I'm looking at is more likely an internal BOX behind those grills. The "light" area is the foremost region of the box interior.

I have a screen cap from ST:TMP that is the best shot I have. Unfortunately, I cannot post the image directly on this board.

In the pod scene, at it passes along side the impulse engine the lighting is such that you appear to get the narrowing effect on the left opening but the grills on the right are clearly straight.

The image suggest some depth to the grill. Unfortunately, I have yet to find someone who knows what is behind it.

 

[SonicRanger]

Gee, where is Probert when you need him?

 

[bigjimslade]

My working theory is that there was a piece of frosted transparent plastic with a cutout that rested against the grill with another piece of the same material without the cutout behind.

An aside, it is apparent that the three sets of grid lines along the side of the saucer were originally machined all the way around. THen they were filled in around the area of the impulse engine.

Too bad no hi rez pics of the refit in its original color scheme apparently exist.

 

[bigjimslade]

It's interesting how little of this type of information is available.

 

[Maurice]

Image

Image

The lines/louvers are straight and all the same thickness. Looks like there's two trapezoidal openings in a surface just beyond them through which the light shines.

 

[bigjimslade]

Image

Image

The lines/louvers are straight and all the same thickness. Looks like there's two trapezoidal openings in a surface just beyond them through which the light shines.

I agree. However, there are those who argue that there is a narrowing to the grill. ANother board has a frenzied discussion on that topic, with one person showing all kinds of photos "proving" a narrowing (more likely as a result of sampling during the digitizing process).

 

[bigjimslade]

I also add that is such widening occurred, the narrowing would probably require the grills to narrow to about 0.005" on the original model.

 

[trevanian]

I also add that is such widening occurred, the narrowing would probably require the grills to narrow to about 0.005" on the original model.

If you look at the tolerances that magicam had to work with in fabricating the drydock, then manufacturing stuff for the refit at that size wasn't beyond them (even if they couldn't get the neck of the klingon ship on straight.)

 

[Plecostomus]

It's interesting how little of this type of information is available.

That's because no one expected people to be obsessing over these sorts of details decades later. Not a pick at or a slam against anyone, but the model makers didn't really anticipate this sort of discussion so no one bothered to take these sorts of notes or make these sorts of photographs.

 

[trevanian]

It's interesting how little of this type of information is available.

That's because no one expected people to be obsessing over these sorts of details decades later. Not a pick at or a slam against anyone, but the model makers didn't really anticipate this sort of discussion so no one bothered to take these sorts of notes or make these sorts of photographs.

After the way trek was studied during the 70s? They knew absolutely that every scribe line and hatch would be scrutinized, that's a certainty. Plus they needed this documentation to provide to the folks who would be making the model kits and toy ships and such.

As to just how much was documented ... well, Magicam pics included closeup photos of the drydock kit pieces pre-installation, so I think there is a ton of documentation, at least early on, before the super-rush hit, at which point documentation went out the window (and that was AFTER magicam's involvement ended.) Main unit shoot had 35,000 bts pics taken, and I bet that Abel's folks did plenty of documenting as well.

 

[Gepard]

I agree. However, there are those who argue that there is a narrowing to the grill. ANother board has a frenzied discussion on that topic, with one person showing all kinds of photos "proving" a narrowing (more likely as a result of sampling during the digitizing process).

It's worth noting that, in the Trek Art thread on this topic, ThomasModels chimed in with:

The studio model was built using a photo-etched metal detail plate in each engine thruster. Each thruster was a mirror of the other. Images of the unattached PE metal thruster was referenced while creating product for model and toy companies. For the definative pattern, take a look at the decal in the large Polar Lights model kit or the photo-etch metal parts designed for the plastic kit.

And an image of the part in question:

Looks like narrowing to me.

 

[trevanian]

That's great info, and very much in keeping with the tech of the times, since so much of Ridleyville in the establishing shots of BLADE RUNNER also used the photo-etch method.

 

[USS KG5]

I just look at this thread and imagine the restaurant in TMP being called the "Refit Grill" and Kirk going in to order a bit of prime rib...

 

[trevanian]

I just look at this thread and imagine the restaurant in TMP being called the "Refit Grill" and Kirk going in to order a bit of prime rib...

Grilled tofu is more like it (not that there is anything wrong with that), this was late-GR era stuff, like early TNG, so they were all probably vegan or vegetarian.