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Redesigned DY-100

I can't help but notice you failed to respond to the rest of my post.

IF the basis of your argument is flawed, why take the rest of it apart? :P
Look, comparisons to the ISS (for example) or the Apollo-era spacecraft are inherently flawed... they weren't designed that way because it made the best engineering sense, they were designed that way because of the extraordinary difficulty (right now) of lifting any objects from the surface into orbit.

There is virtually NOTHING that "sticks out" on the space shuttle... it needs to be as aerodynamic as possible. It's not as sleek as the version proposed in "2001" (which is actually probably a better design overall!) but it's reasonably low-drag and not subject to the localized drag issues that you'd see if, say, you tried to boost a "Space 1999 Eagle" into orbit, or really fly the Millennium Falcon, or so forth.

Of course, the Enterprise, and most "Trekkian" ships, are designed primarily as spacecraft, and most aren't designed to enter atmosphere at all, so "drag" is largely a moot point. I mention the above just to point out that we're really discussing apples and Studebakers. There's very little "common ground" between Trekkian ships and anything we've yet to built or launch here on good old REAL Earth.

If the DY-100 is intended to be launched from the ground... the TOS ship is actually a somewhat reasonable design. Yes, there would need to be a few other components present (most likely ejected after liftoff, much as the shuttle ejects the boosters and tank), and I think you'd probably have a shroud over pods (or else you'd "pick up" those pods in orbit, possible constructed at a lunar facility?)

Part of the issue there is "what is in the pods?" There's no indication that they're fuel (but if they are, that would likely not be carried up in the same launch as the main vessel, I think). Maybe they're "colony supplies?" Maybe they're fuel, sure. Maybe that's where the sleeper compartments are? We really don't know. We DO know that there is room for more pods on the DY-100 than we saw in TOS (Three more "above" pods in the existing row, and another entire row behind there).

The point I'm making? The DY-100 is really subject to the same rules as the Space Shuttle, according to the version we see in TOS. It looks far more "period appropriate" than what's been proposed, above, which looks more like a "1997 Sci-fi movie" design than a "1997 real space" design.

It fits better as a "Star Wars" ship... which I think is sort of the point being made by several folks above... than a Trek ship, or a REAL ship.

Why not a "trek ship?" Because, at least in the Federation, the ethos has always been "we work on the hardware from inside the hull," not "we have to get in spacesuits and go outside to repair vital equipment." THAT is central to all "Federation starship design," regardless of whether it's civilian or military in nature.

It's a conscious design choice, and it's cultural. It makes good practical sense, too.

Putting "Greeblies" all over the outside of the ship isn't a good idea, for many, many reasons. Yes, it compromises the overall mechanical integrity of the design. Yes, it dramatically increases the difficulty involved in making repairs. Yes, it provides information to any potential enemy who can then easily tell where the fuel tanks are, for instance.

It was a good idea for 2001, with the moonbus and so forth... and this good idea was carried forward for the pilot of "Space 1999" (but they later lost all credibility by having their ships flying in atmospheres, hitting relativistic speeds, doing frequent take-off/landing operations in high gravity, etc). But those were both "very near future" concepts, and intended FULLY for "in a vacuum, not going very fast, and being very close to base" operations. And it was a good idea for 2001 with the Discovery "spine" but, again, that's "very near future" and still the equivalent of "a log raft in space" more than a well-developed design.

Trek ships aren't "log rafts." They're well-developed designs, in an era where the infrastructure is well-developed enough that they're more like modern naval vessels than like those "log raft" designs. The DY-100 was the sole exception, because it was supposed to be "NASA's near future."

This design isn't any of the above, really... so I have to agree with the critiques from above. It's a cool ship, but it simply doesn't "fit."
 
It looks good. The thing about the gun emplacements, though, is...everybody on these ships always seems to be in suspended animation, and it's doubtful that computers of that time could mount an automated defense of the ship. They seem to have premised the survivability of these things - quite reasonably, in context - on the notion that nothing interesting will ever happen between here...and there. :lol:
 
IF the basis of your argument is flawed, why take the rest of it apart? :P
There's nothing flawed in pointing out that the original DY-100 design hardly lends itself to a surface launch ala the space shuttle, and that being assembled in space would mean your argument about things "sticking out" would be moot.
 
Why not a "trek ship?" Because, at least in the Federation, the ethos has always been "we work on the hardware from inside the hull," not "we have to get in spacesuits and go outside to repair vital equipment." THAT is central to all "Federation starship design," regardless of whether it's civilian or military in nature.
The DY-100 isn't a Federation design.
 
Why not a "trek ship?" Because, at least in the Federation, the ethos has always been "we work on the hardware from inside the hull," not "we have to get in spacesuits and go outside to repair vital equipment." THAT is central to all "Federation starship design," regardless of whether it's civilian or military in nature.
The DY-100 isn't a Federation design.
If you read my entire post, you know that you're taking one line out of context. Why did you just do that?
Trek ships aren't "log rafts." They're well-developed designs, in an era where the infrastructure is well-developed enough that they're more like modern naval vessels than like those "log raft" designs. The DY-100 was the sole exception, because it was supposed to be "NASA's near future."
So, you're using a point I, myself, made, as an argument against the point I'm making?
The point I'm making? The DY-100 is really subject to the same rules as the Space Shuttle, according to the version we see in TOS. It looks far more "period appropriate" than what's been proposed, above, which looks more like a "1997 Sci-fi movie" design than a "1997 real space" design.
 
IF the basis of your argument is flawed, why take the rest of it apart? :P
There's nothing flawed in pointing out that the original DY-100 design hardly lends itself to a surface launch ala the space shuttle, and that being assembled in space would mean your argument about things "sticking out" would be moot.

This is true.

What is the point of "redesigns" of oldTrek ships that are premised on the notion that they fit as unobtrusively into old patterns as possible - that anything startling or different or rethought is grounds for criticism on that basis?

That's boring, and encapsulates one reason that Trek had become so boring that the only way to reawaken public interest in it was to rebuild it. "Designing" spaceships by moving a standard old drawing of a nacelle from one place in relationship to a standard old drawing of a saucer to another, then relocating the sensor dish or something, is hagiography more than it's art. What Johnnymuffintop has done here, for whatever other limits his work might or might not have, is at least a tad more interesting than that.
 
Actually, the DY-100 lends itself nicely to a surface-launch mode, if you assume that the "pods" aren't launched at the same time (as I stipulated).

Here is the DY-100 in "launch mode."

dy100launch.jpg


The four boosters would be discarded (reused?) after launch, leaving the "base ship."

dy100bare.jpg


The ship would then be loaded up with "pods" while in orbit

dy100fullyloaded.jpg


(It's theoretically possible that it COULD be launched with the pods, of course, much as some of the "heavy-lift" rockets which have been developed, though not USED, would do, but I'm assuming not... I'm assuming that these are fuel pods and are probably developed at a lunar base and provided to the ship in orbit.)

Not every DY-100 would carry a full load, and it's possible that they might discard expended pods (assuming that these are fuel pods rather than serving some "cargo" purpose).

In any case, the DY-100 we saw Khan and his company aboard didn't carry a full loadout, and looked like this.

dy100khan.jpg


Seems pretty practical as an in-system ship to me. Not as an interstellar one, really, but as one which might be sent out as a "sleeper ship" in an act of desperation... sure, why not?
 
Moronic? Really, man? We ARE talking about franchise that routinely warps space, travels through time, builds androids that are indistinguishable from people, and beams people from point A to point B. Their designs from a Newtonian standpoint don't hold up. So, why the hate for exterior details?

If you're going to argue realism then I'll counter based on that. In the case given, though, it doesn't logically follow that older ships have more greeblies, since we've seen numerous older ships in the Trek franchise, and they don't have them.


Breathe with me and repeat "change is okay"

Just because other ships don't have them doesn't mean they can't have them. I don't think Gene wanted to stifle creativity by creating Star Trek.
 
I agree with the thinking that TOS designs, and Trek in general, should fit the "TOS model", or for Trek in general the established Trek model.

It's not stifling art to require that it fit into an established criteria. When you take art courses virtually always the instructor will put guidelines on a project. The more talented you are (and the better your techniques are in the given medium) the more creative you can be within the determined criteria.

IMO, (for whatever it's worth ;)) it's a perfectly legitimate, and constructive, critique.
 
Breathe with me and repeat "change is okay."

In fact, it's quite good.

There's not much creativity in constantly copying. "Critique" that consists primarily of pointing out that a piece of art is too different doesn't really have much to do with the art in question and more to do with enforcement of orthodoxy.
 
Breathe with me and repeat "change is okay"

"Earth, Hitler, 1938"

(Look it up if you think I'm just Godwinning here)

Change is nothing more than change.. it's neither inherently bad nor inherently good. It's just as easy, and even easier usually, to make a change for the worse than one for the better.

In this case, the 'change' is to make Star Trek devoid of a unique style of flavor in favor of whatever generic mood fits the moment. I do not consider that a good 'change', and it's one that I feel will once again destroy Trek in the future... because it's part of what destroyed it before.

Just because other ships don't have them doesn't mean they can't have them. I don't think Gene wanted to stifle creativity by creating Star Trek.

Meaning that, to you, Star Trek is nothing more than a brand, in the name of 'creativity'. It's utterly meaningless so long as it's 'cool' for the moment.
 
^Notice Vance still hasn't responded to the very legitimate points I made?

Actually, the DY-100 lends itself nicely to a surface-launch mode, if you assume that the "pods" aren't launched at the same time (as I stipulated).
Except of course for that big conning tower which would create drag and would unbalance it during launch due to its mass. Of course you're already pretty close to my "assembled in space" argument when you start talking about taking parts off of it to get it into space.
 
big conning towers can be compensated for easily enough. the space shuttle assembly is far from symmetrical, and gets into orbit fine. its just a matter of where your center of mass is, and applying thrust appropriately.

the problem with greebs and noodly bits is that they increase drag on the vehicle, greatly increasing the amount of energy/fuel required to lift it to orbit, and honesty probably don't have the physical strength to withstand the maximum dynamic pressure exerted upon them during launch.

if the space shuttle has parts which "stick out", they're smooth parts. you could model the whole thing pretty well with a few blobs.
 
Of course, in the TOS era we have surface-to-orbit ships that are built like shoeboxes for no good reason whatever - centuries of design history and streamlining just abandoned, there. :lol:
 
^Notice Vance still hasn't responded to the very legitimate points I made?

They weren't legitimate since the whole premise that started them was factually wrong. But way to start making it personal yet again. I get it, you don't like Star Trek... I really do understand. I just wish you would admit that up front and just say "Of course I like it, it doesn't look like Star Trek".
 
Of course, in the TOS era we have surface-to-orbit ships that are built like shoeboxes for no good reason whatever - centuries of design history and streamlining just abandoned, there. :lol:

Yeah, but you gotta remember the design of the time... design in the 1960's, be it architectural, industrial, or residential, was very simplistic... very simple shapes, like boxes and spheres. Things like rockets were not overly-complex in form, as a lot of period science fiction shows... the flying saucer and space movies of the time show extremely simple and sleek saucers and rockets... almost no surface details of any kind. But not matter how sleek something was, it was always designed with function in mind. The shuttlecraft (I'm assuming that's what you're calling a shoebox) was meant to be utilitarian, which is probably why it had a more boxy and un-sleek look.
 
Of course, in the TOS era we have surface-to-orbit ships that are built like shoeboxes for no good reason whatever - centuries of design history and streamlining just abandoned, there. :lol:

Yeah, but you gotta remember the design of the time... design in the 1960's, be it architectural, industrial, or residential, was very simplistic... very simple shapes, like boxes and spheres. Things like rockets were not overly-complex in form, as a lot of period science fiction shows... the flying saucer and space movies of the time show extremely simple and sleek saucers and rockets... almost no surface details of any kind. But not matter how sleek something was, it was always designed with function in mind. The shuttlecraft (I'm assuming that's what you're calling a shoebox) was meant to be utilitarian, which is probably why it had a more boxy and un-sleek look.

Plus the shows production couldn't afford the aerodynamic designs MJ originaly came up with.
 
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