Red Letter Media - The Last Jedi

[fireproof78]

If you took all of the time you've invested so far (and are likely to invest in the future) attempting to beat-back TLJ haters and put it all into a video you could do it. Of course, if the extent of your defense of TLJ is to insult and namecall its critics, then you won't be able to fill an hour's runtime.

Other than a spate of positive professional print reviews, I've seen very few if any amateur videos lavishing it with praise. There's a lot of counter-attacks of the haters, but these are all ad homs. They're not defending the movie content itself.

At some point the apologists should pick up the gauntlet otherwise they really have no reason to feel they have the high-ground.

I recommend finding some podcasts then, because I've heard a lot more on that side for defense than in the video format, largely because that is overrun by the constant drumbeat.

More substantially, stating that people should go and produce their own content or they have nothing to say is akin to telling people who don't make films to stop criticizing films. Is that reasonable?

 

[Trekkin]

If you took all of the time you've invested so far (and are likely to invest in the future) attempting to beat-back TLJ haters and put it all into a video you could do it.

One person, working for 10-15 minutes, for three days, with no money, would not equal the effort it takes to produce a product as ‘deep’ and polished as RLM’s. Especially if they’ve also got other things to do.

(They also don’t decide to forgo all future potential free time, just because mos double-dog-dared people, and expected to be taken seriously. Because ‘duh.’)

That RLM - a team - announced and started this sucker 9 months ago, should have been a clue about how ‘it’s easy’ is an absolute load of deluded bullshit. And they are getting paid, have staff, and do this professionally as a full time job.

As for length, that’s not ‘depth’ or ‘quality.’ Length for its own sake, is typically considered bad writing in every context. An inability to boil your argument down to be as simple as possible, means you probably don’t really understand what you’re talking about. Or how to write. Or both.

Hence: why even a super-complicated 60-page thesis, will still nearly always have a summary that only clocks out at a few paragraphs at most. Keep It Simple Stupid.

Other than a spate of positive professional print reviews, I've seen very few if any amateur videos lavishing it with praise. There's a lot of counter-attacks of the haters, but these are all ad homs. They're not defending the movie content itself.

So when you cut out the positive reviews you found praising the movie on its own merits...you can’t find any reviews praising the movie on its own merits.

(RLM’s also not amateur by any stretch of the definition, but whatever.)

May I direct you to Jenny Nicholson’s first...five videos on the subject? Or fuck it, my rambling 3-am first impressions from my advance screening? Since you appear to be having, errr...’trouble’ finding these sort of things.

Admittedly, they were not ‘defences.’ They were reviews. How you’re wanting a ‘defence’ that does not involve addressing or ‘counter attacking’ the other ‘side’, I do not know.

At some point the apologists should pick up the gauntlet otherwise they really have no reason to feel they have the high-ground.

An alternative: Maybe people just don’t care about your estimation of your own standing.

Especially as Obi-Wan himself established that you can absolutely cut a dude’s dick in half just fine from the ‘low-ground.‘ Makes it easier even. And it will be the cooler scene by far.

Either way, keep your steenkin’ high ground.

 

[Qonundrum]

Probably the single best dismantling of TLJ yet. And many of the same talking points brushed away by those who just label it manbabies and toxic fandom.

Utterly. There ARE some great ideas at work... I'm glad he pointed out the technology. Low-tech sometimes has a more realistic feel, not just keeping with Star Wars aesthetic!

40:00 is where the best part begins. He rightly points out new ideas, which SW needs to do. Even a minor reordering of movie scenes with Ren/Rey/Snoke and the suicide run would have really boosted the movie.

Makes me wish there was a Luke anthology movie to go into detail about his falling out, since that's needed. 2 hours of expanding a 2 minute bit in ANH for "Solo" when it just wasn't necessary just wasn't necessary.

Disney definitely put in some first rate casting. They've helped even the worst bits of this new trilogy so far.

Yes, letting fans do it doesn't always yield success. After all, some of Trek's best moments were made by a guy who hadn't seen the show or cared for it before. You know, Nicholas Meyer! New blood IS okay. Especially when said new blood understands the core premise but adds to it. TNG did that.

I loved his bit at the end about inappropriate happiness. No worries, a number of 60s Trek episodes ended inappropriately happy with jokes too.

Can't believe he won't continue the Plinkett series.

I hope episode IX is more than a bunch of rehashed callbacks in the way TFA was. That would be why RLM would avoid it.

 

[Trekkin]

Can't believe he won't continue the Plinkett series.

I kinda can.

Plinkett takes a lot longer than their vloggy-style content, and back before I deleted Twitter their fans were a near constant background noise of ‘Y no Plinkett? U no give us the Plinkett? We wan the Plinkett!’

(Because Jack decided that shit I don’t follow should be recommended into my timeline based on my ‘history’ because Jacks a idiotic fuc- )

Plus, you know...no need to do the exact same job for a decade unless you really want/need to.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

I watched it last night. I don't think Mr. Plinkett's reviews have been that entertaining since his Revenge of the Sith review. Same here. Some parts made me chuckle and he made some good points I'd never thought about (misplaced happiness at the end with the 12 surviving members of the Resistance).

The part that made me laugh the hardest was Rich Evans playing Rian Johnson in his wine tasting short film

 

[Campe]

Other than a spate of positive professional print reviews, I've seen very few if any amateur videos lavishing it with praise.

So? Look, I freely admit there’s a lot of fair criticism about TLJ out there. I like the movie but it’s not perfect. I’ve said that since walking out of my screening opening night. The fact that all of these negative videos out there says less about those who enjoy it and more about those who attack it. Perhaps it’s more because they have this intense need to be heard. Or because negative headlines gain more traction and more clicks (therefore more money for them) these days. But I don’t need to post a YouTube video in order to justify my feelings about what I like and dislike about TLJ. Hell, I don’t need to justify my feelings in anyway on the Internet. That’s my choice. Doesn’t make my or any other fan of TLJ’s opinion any less valid than yours or any other naysayer of the movie.

 

[Trekkin]

Alright, this had been bugging me since yesterday.

So one of their complaints, is that Holdo is practically Empire-like by demanding total obedience and respect due to rank.

The thing is...The Empire doesn’t really value total obedience and respect? I mean:

(1) Its two figureheads, are literally planning on killing one another. Vader wants to usurp the Emperor, and the Emperor is itching to replace Vader. And they’re very, very open about it.

Then R1 comes along, and hammers in what’s hinted in ANH: that level of squabbling is pretty normal all the way down the command line. Everybody is contantly backbiting and disobeying the chain of command in public, and Vader/The Emperor don’t care so long as they get the results they want.

This was nearly always contrasted with the Rebels, who usually took a ‘we don’t make these people our leaders for no reason, so you will show respect’ approach the few times we see people questioning orders. R1 being the exception. Because politicians.

(2) Holdo does listen to Poe. She even has an audience with him. She just doesn’t take this one dude out of hundreds, who just got demoted for getting everything and everyone blown up, into her confidence.

So he tried to take over. Kinda like the Empire characters constantly seem to be doing.

(3) Holdo doesn’t expect respect due to rank. She simply expects Poe to trust her due to her reputation, and to trust the judgement of his fellow Resistance members that appointed her. She’s even has a line where she explicitly says that. Which is decidedly not Empire like, where it’s ‘do what I say or I will literally crush you.’
​

It’s...lazy. Like they took it for granted that the Rebels were traditionally huge anti authoritarians or something, and just spitballed from there.

Even though even the shallowest reading of the OT shows that was really not the case. The Rebels were always basically depicted as the military of an opposing nation, government in exile, etc. It’s like calling the French Resistance or Viet Cong ‘Nazi-like,’ because they took a dim view on insubordination amongst the ranks.

 

[Trekkin]

Oh, and don’t think I didn’t notice that they how very carefully they picked Picard as their Trek example of how Trek depicts ‘good command.’

Of course, even with the most whitebread crew in existence, to come to their conclusion you’d have to forget all the times Picards crew did undermine and ignore him.

Worf in particular was fond of it, and copped a (supposably permanent) demotion for little squabbles like...going against Picards wishes, and axe-murdering an arsehole. Or letting a Romulan bleed to death. Or just outright packing up, and leaving altogether. Then telling Picard to his face that he doesn’t regret a single second of any of it.

You’d also have to forget that Holdo ain’t the ship’s captain in the narrative (funny enough, Poe was.) She’s the fleets admiral. Which means her Trek counterpart isn’t Picard, Kirk et al.

She’s presented as the countless admirals that only exist for all of Trek protagonists to undermine without consequence, or even gain rewards. To the point where that becomes even less believable than the magical space engines.

*cough*movies3and4*cough*

The review is more substantive than most ‘Speak loudly to the camera about Star Wars (whilst asking for subscriptions)’ videos, but the constant use of ‘compare to...’ approach is the sort of shit they always do that drives me bonkers. If you can’t highlight the issue with just the Star Wars footage, maybe your critique needs refining or the issue just isn’t that demanding.

 

[mos6507]

You're not seeing the forest through the trees. Every movie pushes a message of some sort. Sometimes it's overt and sometimes you have to sort of squint a bit to pick it up. Most of the blowback against TLJ has oriented around the perception that LTJ overtly pushes an anti-male matriarchal agenda. The treatment of Poe by Holdo was used to prove that thesis. Plinkett tries to walk away from making it about gender and just evaluates whether the leadership dynamic in the Resistance is a good one or not, regardless of gender. And it's not. And we're not just talking about Holdo's actions. It's Leia too.

And it's NOT even just the resistance, either. It's also the First Order. Pretty much everyone in the film stumbles around and makes stuff up as they go along, which usually leads to bad outcomes across the board. This is why Plinkett calls it a comedy of errors.

If I keep going down this road I'll just paraphrase his whole 1-hour treatise. If you want to counter his criticism and tell us all that we're all wrong and TLJ is a great movie after all you've got your work cut out for yourself.

It's like I was saying before. For the amount of time you'll probably invest in dropping posts here you really could make a one hour video...if it were really so important to you. I'm not asking you to do this, only that you underestimate the amount of work and skill and dedication required to put a video like that together. Because he structured his argument the way he did, his video is going to make a lasting impact on how people view this film and the random chatter in this forum will just come and go.

 

[fireproof78]

If we are needing a YouTube commentator film to establish my opinion on a film then that is a problem. I can watch a film and expand upon its pros and cons just fine on my own. This is essentially a "appeal to authority" fallacy because people happen to agree with his points.

I will not argue that TLJ is a "great" film but it is a good film. The characters follow both from a Star Wars narrative POV, and the structure of the film is in keeping with Star Wars as a whole. In particular, it works from the premise established by the OT that evil was only defeated for a time, as illustrated by Vader's tumbling but not destroyed fighter in ANH. If anything, ROTJ is an exception to the final defeat, which is probably why the EU never set well with me, but that's another debate.

The characters are presented with many classic tropes, except those tropes are not being dismantled. Similarly, in literature, we often have the very Shakespearian style of presenting a protagonist who ends up being wrong. Also in several operas. The PT established this concept in the SW narrative as a whole, which means it is valid to explore in the narrative of the ST. Anakin, regardless of presentation, was to be a wide eyed hopeful hero who falls despite having the right motives, saving the lives of those he loves. Sound familiar? Weird.

Finally, not sure why all the TLJ supporters need to make a video to legitimize their own analysis of the film.

 

[Gaith]

Some parts made me chuckle and he made some good points I'd never thought about (misplaced happiness at the end with the 12 surviving members of the Resistance).

No offense, but I'm having trouble seeing how anyone could miss that, unless they feel that the survival of our principal characters literally outweighs the deaths of hundreds of others?

Vader wants to usurp the Emperor, and the Emperor is itching to replace Vader. And they’re very, very open about it.

Huh? Just because they're both open about it to Luke doesn't make them open about it in general.

Then R1 comes along, and hammers in what’s hinted in ANH: that level of squabbling is pretty normal all the way down the command line. Everybody is contantly backbiting and disobeying the chain of command in public

Again: what? Surely you don't mean that the high-level meetings in which Krennic and Tarkin were yelling at each other were in any way "public," let alone that these two high-ranking leaders are "way down the command line"?! Leaders who regularly meet with Vader himself, to the point they don't even fear to backtalk him?!

Holdo doesn’t expect respect due to rank. She simply expects Poe to trust her due to her reputation, and to trust the judgement of his fellow Resistance members that appointed her.

So... rank. In a military, it's always about rank, unless the superior explicitly says "never mind my rank for the moment," which I don't recall her doing. (But, what do I know, I'm just a four-year US Navy veteran... )

But you're missing the larger point the RLM review argues, IMO: the ultimate problem with Holdo's plan isn't that she doesn't tell Poe about it, it's that it's a stupid plan that relies on the First Order being unbelievably incompetent. The First Order has a whole fleet at their disposal, and the Resistance ships are passing right by a planet. Given that, even if the FO ships weren't scanning for escape pods or were fooled by their random-ass sensor cloaks, and even if they somehow didn't scan the main ships and noticed no one was aboard anymore (that scanning ability having been established in the opening scene of ANH), given that they were on the verge of destroying the last of the fleet ships, why wouldn't they then check the planet (which just happens to have completely breathable air) to see if they overlooked anyone?

Which ties back into the First Order incompetence the review notes at the beginning, with the dreadnought firing on the immobile, defenseless, potentially intelligence-rich base instead of the fleeing Resistance ships. (Followed immediately with: if the bomber ships were so slow, and Leia didn't intend on using them, why did she have them deploy into position in the first place? If Poe had been killed, the dreadnought's cannon would presumably have cut them to bits, for no gain whatsoever.) The main problem is that Johnson's script, being chock full of plot points that don't remotely pass the sniff test, insults the intelligence of audience members with the slightest interest in tactics, or credible sci-fi worldbuilding. In other words, sci-fi fans.

Now, it's undeniably true that TLJ was a critical smash, with a very impressive 85 Metacritic score. (But then, so was The Hurt Locker, which was laughable from a credible military standpoint. Oh, so one can just jog from Baghdad's Green Zone to its slums at night, with no ID or problem?!) It therefore stands to reason that most professional critics, and many in the audience, either didn't notice these plot points, or didn't care. What we have, therefore, is a fairly interesting case of a sci-fi/fantasy movie that plays best to those who aren't fans of the genre.

 

[Trekkin]

Krennic and Tarkin were yelling at each other were in any way "public,"

Yes.

Because I have seen the movie, and have eyes.

And know what ‘public’ means.

And ‘all the way down the command line’ doesn’t mean ‘at the bottom of the command line.’ Christ, did it become an obscure phrase and no one told me?

Huh? Just because they're both open about it to Luke doesn't make them open about it in general.

...Are you under the impression that Anakin was going to shank the emperor, take his place, promote Luke, and somehow not do it publicly?

So... rank. In a military, it's always about rank, unless the superior explicitly says "never mind my rank for the moment," which I don't recall her doing. (But, what do I know, I'm just a four-year US Navy veteran... )

See this? This is ‘truthiness.’

In that’s its technically correct, but brought up in a context that has nothing to do with anything. So it just implies you have some sort of relevant point, when there’s not really one.

But you're missing the larger point the RLM review argues, IMO: the ultimate problem with Holdo's plan isn't that she doesn't tell Poe about it, it's that it's a stupid plan that relies on the First Order being unbelievably incompetent. The First Order has a whole fleet at their disposal, and the Resistance ships are passing right by a planet. Given that, even if the FO ships weren't scanning for escape pods or were fooled by their random-ass sensor cloaks, and even if they somehow didn't scan the main ships and noticed no one was aboard anymore (that scanning ability having been established in the opening scene of ANH), given that they were on the verge of destroying the last of the fleet ships, why wouldn't they then check the planet (which just happens to have completely breathable air) to see if they overlooked anyone?

Which ties back into the First Order incompetence the review notes at the beginning, with the dreadnought firing on the immobile, defenseless, potentially intelligence-rich base instead of the fleeing Resistance ships. (Followed immediately with: if the bomber ships were so slow, and Leia didn't intend on using them, why did she have them deploy into position in the first place? If Poe had been killed, the dreadnought's cannon would presumably have cut them to bits, for no gain whatsoever.) The main problem is that Johnson's script, being chock full of plot points that don't remotely pass the sniff test, insults the intelligence of audience members with the slightest interest in tactics, or credible sci-fi worldbuilding. In other words, sci-fi fans.

Now, it's undeniably true that TLJ was a critical smash, with a very impressive 85 Metacritic score. (But then, so was The Hurt Locker, which was laughable from a credible military standpoint. Oh, so one can just jog from Baghdad's Green Zone to its slums at night, with no ID or problem?!) It therefore stands to reason that most professional critics, and many in the audience, either didn't notice these plot points, or didn't care. What we have, therefore, is a fairly interesting case of a sci-fi/fantasy movie that plays best to those who aren't fans of the genre.

Hmmm.

‘That’s not what RLM was saying!’
*proceeds to list ‘IMO’ complaints, and not reference much of anything RLM said.*

Presenting: Hela’s List of What Are Not ‘Plot Holes’:

1. Shit that’s in the movie, but you just didn’t pay attention to. For eg. Why did Leia deploy the bombers, then withdraw them? Did they really think the FO wouldn’t find them? Etc etc etc.

2. Character making mistakes. Especially when they say it was a mistake. For eg. ‘We’ll withdraw to the bunker until our allies come with support. Oh fuck, I overestimated their moral.’​

Also, as a sci-fi fan, please give me a moment to laugh very very hard at the oh-so-refined critical palates of sci-fi fans.

We saw those totally-not-consumed-by-the-popular-audience science fiction properties: TNG and Star Wars. Why, those unwashed masses could never hope to gain the insights we have!

Spare me.

 

[Trekkin]

You're not seeing the forest through the trees. Every movie pushes a message of some sort. Sometimes it's overt and sometimes you have to sort of squint a bit to pick it up. Most of the blowback against TLJ has oriented around the perception that LTJ overtly pushes an anti-male matriarchal agenda. The treatment of Poe by Holdo was used to prove that thesis. Plinkett tries to walk away from making it about gender and just evaluates whether the leadership dynamic in the Resistance is a good one or not, regardless of gender. And it's not. And we're not just talking about Holdo's actions. It's Leia too.

And it's NOT even just the resistance, either. It's also the First Order. Pretty much everyone in the film stumbles around and makes stuff up as they go along, which usually leads to bad outcomes across the board. This is why Plinkett calls it a comedy of errors.

If I keep going down this road I'll just paraphrase his whole 1-hour treatise. If you want to counter his criticism and tell us all that we're all wrong and TLJ is a great movie after all you've got your work cut out for yourself.

It's like I was saying before. For the amount of time you'll probably invest in dropping posts here you really could make a one hour video...if it were really so important to you. I'm not asking you to do this, only that you underestimate the amount of work and skill and dedication required to put a video like that together. Because he structured his argument the way he did, his video is going to make a lasting impact on how people view this film and the random chatter in this forum will just come and go.

‘You’re not seeing the forrest through the trees!’

*Reiterated the thing RLM explicitly dismissed as stupid (and has pretty much made an entire show mocking), then backhandedly claims they supported his point regardless.*

Also, yeah the leadership dynamic is bad. Poe’s within it, and no one was ruthless enough to airlock him.

(And no shit the villains don’t have stable or cooperating leadership. It’s like they’re based on Nazis or something. Jesus.)

As I pointed out, it’s also a complaint that rings especially hollow when you’re using past Wars and Trek as your counterexamples. Because they also aren’t examples of model leadership. Which is why it’s better to just, you know...avoid ‘compare to’ arguments altogether.

Oh, look...that took five seconds.

Also your ‘I am not entitled!’ refrain gets less and less convincing, every time you demand that the people arguing with you do so in a manner that’s needlessly expensive and time-wasting for them. Just so it can merely be be an adequate level of entertaining (sorry: ‘convincing’) for you.

Listen to a lot of Cobain as a kid and miss the point, mos?

 

[Gaith]

Because I have seen the movie, and have eyes.

And know what ‘public’ means.

A meeting composed entirely of high-ranking military leaders is 'public' to you? I guess that explains why White House Situation Room meetings are routinely aired live on C-SPAN.

Wait -

And ‘all the way down the command line’ doesn’t mean ‘at the bottom of the command line.’

Vader reports to the Emperor, and Tarkin and Krennic report to Vader. So, I can only conclude that when you say "all the way down the command line," you mean "two steps down the command line."

Riiiiiiggggghhhhttt.

 

[Trekkin]

A meeting composed entirely of high-ranking military leaders is 'public' to you? I guess that explains why White House Situation Room meetings are routinely aired live on C-SPAN.

Wait -

Yet, it’s more public than the military initial protocol for handing conflict between individuals, isn’t it?

It’s almost like ‘public’ is a relative term by definition. Or something

Vader reports to the Emperor, and Tarkin and Krennic report to Vader. So, I can only conclude that whn you say "all the way down the command line," you mean "two steps down the command line."

Riiiiiiggggghhhhttt.

Vader reports to Tarkin. Everyone on the Death Star reports to Tarkin. How the frigging hell does somone watch ANH and miss th-

Wait, no. Not important. Don’t get distracted by the time-wasting stubbornness.

Krennic isn’t the same rank as Tarkin. Yes he wears admirals stripes, but is explicitly said not to be military. And also referred to as Commander elsewhere. He also doesn’t usually answer to Vader, which is why he’s shitting himself when Vader decides to give him personal attention.

It’s almost like that kinda supports my point. The Empire don’t really give a shit about rank hierarchy. Just how much brute force you can throw around, and whether you can do so successfully.

And that trying to, um...’pull rank’ (for no real reason) about the purposefully vague fictional military specifics, is just a pointless excercise in developing finger muscles.

(Well, not pointless for me I suppose. But I’d have thought dudes would benefit more from wrist exercises.)

 

[Gaith]

Yet, it’s more public than the military initial protocol for handing conflict between individuals, isn’t it?

Ahem:

Not pictured in the below scene: "the people as a whole," citizens, voters, taxpayers, residents, inhabitants, the community...

There is no stretch of the imagination whereby that scene of officers is "public."

Yes he wears admirals stripes, but is explicitly said not to be military.

Lol, wut?



He wears a military uniform, holds a military rank, and commands a military project. Yes, I happen to be male, but that's not relevant in this discussion. What is relevant is you seem to have no idea what constitutes active military service.

 

[Trekkin]

There is no stretch of the imagination whereby that scene of officers is "public."

*Looks at provided definition for half a second.*

Yeah, except for the ‘in open view’ part.

Lol, wut?

Tarkin says his (Krennic’s) project, is now a military project. Which makes it Tarkin’s.

And I didn’t says that I don’t think he is. Just that (as usual) the movies fart around with that sort of finer details.

(Although, I will happily admit that I don’t entirely know the ins and outs of what constitutes active military service within The Galactic Empire of a long time ago. In a galaxy far far away.)

Because the movies makers were smart enough to know they weren’t adapting Starship Troopers, and therefore those details weren’t important to the actual story being told. They just have people boss others around, with an occasional shout out to ‘you can’t do this to me!’

Hence, Generals answering to...whatever Krennic is. And we just roll with it, or head canon it’s because everyone’s terrified that Vader will kill them all if Krennic fails.

 

[Trekkin]

Oh, and if we want to go into technical definitions of the word public.

Spoiler: Legal Dictionary comin’ through, do not read if legalese gives you hives

..

Turns out the situation and people in that room meet the ‘public’ definition on quiet a number of levels!

 

[Gaith]

^ So every time the Joint Chiefs of Staff and their top aides meet for a closed-door, top-secret meeting in the Pentagon, you consider that meeting "public" because there are more than two or three people in the room, and the DoD is part of the federal government, which serves society at large?

Crikey, what the hell are we even discussing here?!

But you're missing the larger point the RLM review argues, IMO: the ultimate problem with Holdo's plan isn't that she doesn't tell Poe about it, it's that it's a stupid plan that relies on the First Order being unbelievably incompetent.

Still the case.

 

[Trekkin]

^ So every time the Joint Chiefs of Staff and their top aides meet for a closed-door, top-secret meeting in the Pentagon, you consider that meeting "public" because there are more than two or three people in the room, and the DoD is part of the federal government, which serves society at large?

Crikey, what the hell are we even discussing here?!

Still the case.

Considering what’s ‘public’ is actually a case where it really does depend on your point of view (aka. The context), then yes. It’s a private meeting than having the press there, but more public than say...a one-on-one between a General and The President. Assuming said president isn’t one that basically spills his guts ever morning on Twitter.

And in the context of resolving personal disputes within a professional environment, Krennic’s catfight was definitely a public one. Especially for a military.

(They are, also, literally ‘public.’ But that’s more just an aside just that I personally found funny, because you actually had the hubris to use the phrase ‘in any sense of the word.’ )

When does the movie establish that it’s only the top brass anyway? Krennic is escorted by a lieutenant, who he follows in.

Also, I answered that repeated question under ‘What’s Not A Plot Hole.’ RLM didn’t actually describe Holdo and Leia’s plan. They explicitly knew they’d probably be found, which is why they were holing up and waiting for rescue from nearby allies. DJ just hastened the timeline, and the vital rescue never came.

Well actually, it did. But not from the allies Leia was banking on. Because Lando apparently took his retirement announcement very seriously.

Spoiler: Giving this grievence all the visibility it deserves.

The scanners aren’t even an element that needs addressing. They establish that the Resistance does have ‘cloaks’, and (more importantly) never establish that the FO has ‘scanners’ at all. Even if they were the same organisation as The Empire that had that tech in ANH (they’re not,) why would anyone assume it would still be in use or effective after thirty years? Han fools it in ANH, and I think that it fails when it pops up in Clone Wars as well. Although harder core CW fans can correct me on that one if I’m wrong.

Truly: Only bad film making can account for why no one in the movie bothers to address that obscure bit of tech from a different forty year old movie, that’s never established as existing in this one.

It’s funny how we keep coming back to ‘comparisons not being the securest bedrock for criticism’ and ‘when is a plot hole not a plot hole.’ Its almost like what I was complaining about in the first place!