No it wasn’t? Something being bad isn’t fact, it’s subjective, an opinion. That’s just how the world is. One persons trash is another persons treasure.
To be honest, I'm always baffled by the dislike RedLetterMedia is getting around the board. At least when they're doing a negative review, it seems. They always come across like rather honest reviewers to me, without any ulterior motive. I don't get how anyone can come to the conclusion that they are in any way comparable to folks like Midnight's Edge, spewing outright lies in order to generate clickbait. Sure, this might not be their funniest or most insightful review (the concept of their re:view series seem to be more about spontaneous, down-to-earth discussion and less about research and analysis), but this video struck me as a rather candid reflection about the unpleasant realization that something you so badly wanted to like just didn't turn out the way you thought it would. I don't think this is necessarily about any particular expectations or demand not being met by the show, but just a general disappointment about not being entertained. And I can certainly see where they're coming from with this. Sure, Rich's stance of dismissing season two entirely because of the trailer(s) seems a little over the top to me as well, but Mike's way of looking at it reminds me very much of my own view of the show at this point. I didn't hate season one, but oh boy, did I expect to be enjoying it more. Sure, you can try to rationalize and explain to someone why you think the show isn't working (for you) by naming points of criticism (“it's not what I think Trek should be” or “the producers don't like Trek”), but in the end it really just boils down to: I personally didn't love it as much as I hoped I would. Mike always comes across like a genuine fan of the franchise, so I think this realization of his isn't a particularly pleasant one. I know it isn't for me. I was really looking forward to Discovery and I remain hopeful that it improves in the second season. When Enterprise was originally airing, I merely lost interest in the show early on and stopped watching at some point (I eventually rewatched it in its entirety and like much of it now). But with Discovery it's the first time with Star Trek that I outright dislike many of the creative decisions. And that's where I'm right with Mike on this one, I'm just very disappointed about this.
You may know RLM since before. I didn't know you knew them that well, and your venting about their review didn't especially made it clear you were familiar with their format. And yeah, I REALLY wouldn't go as far as comparing RLM to Midnight's edge. What you're seeing from RLM is very honest: They don't really like DIS. And for reasons many other people don't really like DIS either, so you're going to see these points repeatedly come up. That doesn't change that from being true. And yeah, all of that is really, really subjective. You may like it. They don't. They have a show where they talk about stuff. So they are going to talk about how and why they don't like it. And I thought it was actually quite entertaining. Also, it's very obvious you didn't actually watch this video, because apart from the "let's cancel DISCO"-button (which, let's face it, is far less devisive as other gimmicks they have used), their views on the individual Short Treks is actually quite positive. Just not positive enough to overcome their general "don't care"-attitude after the whole first season. Now I'm having a different opinion than them: I love DISCO's character ensemble. But I hated the first season. But now, the Short Treks and the trailers for season 2 have given me a LOT of hope to stay with the show. But quite frankly, I can understand anyone who doesn't completely change his opinion based on a few time-killer shorts and heavily edited marketing-material. So I can actually identify with Mike and Rich much, much more than any of the "Discovery-defenders", for whom any type of criticism is blasphemy and shows they never wanted to like it anyway (as if anyone ever watched something with the intend to not lie it ). Because yeah - the show has been very lackluster s far, and RLM are pointing a lot of things out specifically why that is. They just don't share my optimism about the future of the show. But I have not seen a dishonest word of them. Just that they are disappointed overall, which is a valid opinion on a subjective matter.
Also, where does this whole tangent about it being “only their opinion” come from? Yeah, no shit, it's an opinion show. I didn't get the impression they were presenting their thoughts as facts. They're talking about a television show after all. It just seems like a knockout argument to me to dismiss their views in that way. They didn't try to present it as anything more than their opinion.
I'm recognizing in Rich certain Stages of Bullshit I myself went through with the Abramstrek films: "it's made by people who hate Trek," trying to deny it has a viewer base, dismissing it as not-real-Trek and so on. ("I just watch The Orville" having become kind of a cringe-amusing synecdoche for all this. I enjoy The Orville too but.... :eyeroll: ) I get why this happens. It's like Stages of Fan Grief: "ZOMG, is this going to be Trek forever, now? Surely not! Can't be more than a dozen people watching this, right?" & c. I've been there. But nobody should be surprised that it elicits mixed reactions on a Trek forum. It's also rather confusing from RLM, who were not nearly as dyspeptic about the advent of the Abramsverse as some of us were and who are now manifesting this attitude toward product that's... frankly less vulnerable to a lot of the creative critiques leveled at the early reboot movies, saving of course the complaint that "it's not what I expected." (People who can get behind Star Trek 2009 and Star Trek Beyond but hate Discovery, or who say they "weren't expecting" the style of the latter in light of the former, make little sense to me.) I also struggle to be sympathetic to it in an era where there's no apparent shortage of Trek product in the pipeline, including a new Picard series for those yearning for a return of one of the classic Captains. It's admittedly weird and fascinating to be on basically the opposite trajectory from RLM on this particular journey. But it's also jarring to watch these two talk about Discovery because agree or disagree with them, it's not common to watch them react to something and wonder what it is they could possibly have been watching.
Bringing in Spock was pretty much a given from the first episode, due to the connection to Burnham, but I doubt it was intended so soon from the start. The very first Discovery novel showed us Pike's Enterprise and crew working with Shenzhou, depicting them just like in The Cage. In some ways it's the elephant in the room. Get the Enterprise and Spock out of the way and let Discovery continue on its own with season three.
"it's made by people who hate Trek" This is obviously a hyperbolic statement by Rich. People choose to interpret stuff like this literally so they have a straw man to argue against. The video is two funny dudes riffing on a show they don't like. While they bring up some valid points, and are off-base on others, the whole thing isn't meant to be taken that seriously.
You could literally say the same thing about people who like Discovery and get upset anytime people disagree with them about it.
It started with a post asserting that the only reason that people dislike this particular video is it pointed out flaws in Discovery and that made pro-DSC people uncomfortable who otherwise would like RLM if they were not attacking "precious DSC." Others asserted their disagreement with RLM is based upon other factors. So, here we are. You cannot state that this video is a demonstration of everything wrong with DSC and then tell people not to take it that seriously. It doesn't work that way.
Hyperbolic "jokes" ain't always really jokes, son. I don't know whether he "literally" believes the actual showrunners actually for-true hate Trek or not, but it doesn't often occur to people to "joke" like this unless there's some form of genuine nerdrage underlying it.
Well, he is explaining further what he means by “made by people who don't like Star Trek”. He's saying that it's not what he thinks Star Trek should really be about and that the showrunners (in his opinion) seem to constantly try to turn Star Trek into something he feels it never was (“optimistic, hopeful view of the future” vs. “drama, action, looming threats, miserable and angry people”). But yeah, it's just a hyperbolic way of saying they didn't make it the way he would have liked it. I don't see the problem there, though. I doubt he really thinks the showrunners actively hate Star Trek.
OK, I misremembered but here's the quote. They bring up a lot of valid criticisms but shouldn't be taken seriously. Which is it?
Like I said, Rich's patterns on this remind me of my own back when I was struggling to get my head around the reboots as a fan. I was saying I can relate. To an extent. @johnjm22 appears to be of the mistaken belief that nobody here has watched RLM before and that we don't know they mix humor with pop culture commentary. That isn't so. We know. We (at any rate, I) just found the humor in this outing lacking and sour and the commentary noticeably weak for RLM.
This. And it isn't just with DSC. It's been something I've noted on other of their films. It just doesn't engage me.
Obviously no-one has to like their videos or find them funny or insightful, but going back to a point I tried to make earlier, I don't really get the vitriol directed at everything they put out. It's not just this video or videos by RLM in general, it's a pattern I observed on the Trek BBS where people really seem to have a dislike for any content creator or video commentator. Every time someone posts a video like this or (god forbid) creates a video of their own, people react with posts like “I'm not gonna watch a 20 minute video of two fat fanboys crying, what's the short version?” I mean, come on, they are essentially putting out free content for viewers to enjoy (or not enjoy). In the case of RedLetterMedia, they are doing it for years even. They are not forcing anyone to watch their stuff and they don't comment from a position of authority. They are essentially just like folks on a forum like this, so why assume any ulterior motives? And why hate on them so much?
As an aside, I really like the work that Chuck does at SFdebris. He's most of the way through reviewing Season 1 now, but still has the last episode - and typically doesn't reveal his season ratings until he's done with a season, because he rates episodes 1-10 based upon the average quality of the series in question - meaning a 10 for VOY might only be a 7 for DS9, for example. Regardless, he's been pretty even handed in his reviews so far. He's pointed out narrative issues in how the season was structured, and he's certainly not happy with how the spore drive has been used, but compared to his critiques of Voyager and Enterprise (where at times he's screaming) he's pretty sedate.
You're trying to straw-man me. Yes they brought up valid criticisms. That doesn't mean everything they said is meant to be take seriously or literally. I also said some of their comments were offbase. For example, in a Plinkett review Mike parodies silly overly critical arguments, but he also makes valid criticisms. It doesn't have to be one or the other.