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Spoilers Red Angel plot hole

F. King Daniel

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The Red Angel is finally revealed by literally killing Michael Burnham, when her mother appears to save her. At the time they thought it was Michael herself, but that's irrelevant. The point was, they forced a confrontation by killing Michael.

So... why didn't Momma Burnham appear in "Magic to Make the Sanest Men Go Mad", when Michael Burnham actually died over and over again? I know the real-life reason is because Red Angels hadn't been thought of yet, but it's kind of a big oopsie.
 
The Red Angel is finally revealed by literally killing Michael Burnham, when her mother appears to save her. At the time they thought it was Michael herself, but that's irrelevant. The point was, they forced a confrontation by killing Michael.

So... why didn't Momma Burnham appear in "Magic to Make the Sanest Men Go Mad", when Michael Burnham actually died over and over again? I know the real-life reason is because Red Angels hadn't been thought of yet, but it's kind of a big oopsie.
You know what the real world reason why is that not enough?
 
The Red Angel is finally revealed by literally killing Michael Burnham, when her mother appears to save her. At the time they thought it was Michael herself, but that's irrelevant. The point was, they forced a confrontation by killing Michael.

So... why didn't Momma Burnham appear in "Magic to Make the Sanest Men Go Mad", when Michael Burnham actually died over and over again? I know the real-life reason is because Red Angels hadn't been thought of yet, but it's kind of a big oopsie.
I guess from Gabrielle's view from the future the only outcome she saw was the one where they outwitted Mudd.
 
Think there are several plot holes in the Red Angel episode, but I don't see this as one of them. I would say, that to Dr. Burnham, it was actually only the final outcome of that loop that we visible to her. It wasn't her time loop. Whatever the outcome of that loop was, would be how history was recorded so there was no death of Michael to right.

Edit: Ninj'd
 
My impression was that she'd seen countless alternate histories but they all had the same ending, where Control destroys all life in the galaxy.

I guess maybe since they used the same time crystal tech, she saw through the loop and to it's ultimate end.
 
The Red Angel is finally revealed by literally killing Michael Burnham, when her mother appears to save her. At the time they thought it was Michael herself, but that's irrelevant. The point was, they forced a confrontation by killing Michael.

So... why didn't Momma Burnham appear in "Magic to Make the Sanest Men Go Mad", when Michael Burnham actually died over and over again? I know the real-life reason is because Red Angels hadn't been thought of yet, but it's kind of a big oopsie.
Because you can't cross the Time Streams. (Dammit Ray!):whistle::nyah:;)
 
My impression was that she'd seen countless alternate histories but they all had the same ending, where Control destroys all life in the galaxy.

I guess maybe since they used the same time crystal tech, she saw through the loop and to it's ultimate end.
I thought that was just histories based on what she could change. To me, as far as she'd be able to see, only the iteration of the loop where the episode ended was part of the timeline. Because the loop had already been resolved, she would just see those events as they ran the last time as a single continuous event, albeit one involving people who had knowledge of events from other iterations.
 
The Red Angel is finally revealed by literally killing Michael Burnham, when her mother appears to save her. At the time they thought it was Michael herself, but that's irrelevant. The point was, they forced a confrontation by killing Michael.

So... why didn't Momma Burnham appear in "Magic to Make the Sanest Men Go Mad", when Michael Burnham actually died over and over again? I know the real-life reason is because Red Angels hadn't been thought of yet, but it's kind of a big oopsie.
Mudd's time crystal device operated on a closed loop outside the normal spacetime continuum until such time as he successfully completed his mission and destroyed the device, thus returning things to normal but with the changes he made intact. It was like its own pocket of spacetime all happening inside a single moment from the POV of an outside observer, so from her mother's perspective she wouldn't even have known anything was going on until after Mudd broke the loop. If Michael had been dead post-loop, then she could have come back and intervened, but since Michael wasn't dead when the loop was finally broken, there was no need.
 
I'm with the thinking that "Magic To Make The Sanest Man Go Mad" (DSC) is its own isolated loop, and that it ultimately doesn't matter whether Gabrielle could "see into" it or not, because the outcome would be the same from her perspective either way.

There's only a need for her to intervene in a situation where Michael would die but for that intervention.
If Michael had been dead post-loop, then she could have come back and intervened, but since Michael wasn't dead when the loop was finally broken, there was no need.
I'll gently push back a little as to the "need" aspect. Gabrielle says in "Perpetual Infinity" (DSC) that she has seen Michael die many times. She didn't necessarily attempt to intervene on her individual behalf in every one of them. And on the flip side, I don't think we should presume too assuredly that her intervention was in fact truly necessary to Michael's survival, even where it did occur. For instance, in "Point Of Light" (TOS), Amanda says: "Sarek and I always believed that Spock used logic to pinpoint your direction. He might have known what time you left, how fast you were walking, what direction you were going in..."

My impression was that she'd seen countless alternate histories but they all had the same ending, where Control destroys all life in the galaxy.
I thought that was just histories based on what she could change.
Absent clarification to the contrary, I find it an attractive idea that her inability to change the outcome may be directly reflective of each "ending" she witnessed being in various ways the inexorable result of her own intervention. By her very efforts to stop Control, she was actually unwittingly helping it maneuver closer to its goal of bootstrapping itself. Now that she's been sidelined, the trick may be to get Control to fall into its own trap, to in some way engineer a scenario whereby its own efforts can be somehow turned around on itself, just as they did with Mudd in "Magic..."

It's rather like the "price" Pike must pay for taking the crystal from Boreth. She can change many things, but not the "anchor point" she keeps being drawn back to, the "prison" into which she is locked. (I do wonder what might have happened if she were to have "closed the loop" and eliminated herself before she had the chance to use the suit in the first place? Food for thought...)

-MMoM:D
 
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