Interestingly, there are some indications that Tom was a LTJG when he was cashiered (the same rank he was appointed to) which would support the above.
Reconciling Ranks within different Starfleet Departments.
- Thread starter Shamrock Holmes
- Start date
Interestingly, there are some indications that Tom was a LTJG when he was cashiered (the same rank he was appointed to) which would support the above.
Paris got the full two pips originally, though. But one might argue that Paris got a number of incentives for his Maquis-betrayal misssion: not just pardoning from further brainwashing and reinstating of rank, but also a promotion from Junior to full Lieutenant. And once Janeway started demoting people in the aftermath of "Prime Factors", she also found plenty of reasons to demote Paris.
That Chakotay would have been a LtCmdr originally would be a nice coincidence, because a LtCmdr is exactly what she needed - that had been the rank of her previous XO, and giving Chakotay more would be bad for morale, while giving him less would be bad for the hierarchical structure that already featured quite a few full Lieutenants including a couple of Starfleet ones (plus one potential Lieutenant Commander, if we believe Tuvok's pips rather than his words).
Timo Saloniemi
That Chakotay would have been a LtCmdr originally would be a nice coincidence, because a LtCmdr is exactly what she needed - that had been the rank of her previous XO, and giving Chakotay more would be bad for morale, while giving him less would be bad for the hierarchical structure that already featured quite a few full Lieutenants including a couple of Starfleet ones (plus one potential Lieutenant Commander, if we believe Tuvok's pips rather than his words).
Timo Saloniemi
We know the story with the messed up pips in the first season, Somehow no one noticed Tuvok was wearing the wrong pips and by the time it got corrected, both Tom and B'Ellanna's pips were adjusted so that Tuvok could have clear seniority over them. The fact the opening credits throughout the whole season list Tim Russ as playing "Lieutenant Tuvok" makes it clear that was intended to be his rank. Well, except for Caretaker which for some reason didn't list anyone's rank other than Janeway's.
Because the crews weren't integrated yet and spoilers?
Same reason that "Emissary" didn't show the wormhole at the end of the credits...
Spoilers that all the promotional material for the show including the cast photos gave away anyway.
Yet, they did not show the station in orbit of Bajor, which is where the station was before the wormhole was discovered.
To bring things back to the main discussion, can we assume from the fact that Bill Ross (a three pip) was acting as the equivalent of a Unifed Combatant Commander (a four-star post by law) that Starfleet flag ranks (at least in the late 24th Century) rank one higher than their RW NATO equivalents? Therefore, the boxed pip system therefore runs from five to two star not four to one star (whereas the no-pip Season One uni would include a RADML equivalent [Group Admiral or Staff Admiral in my 'headcanon']?
Just to add more fuel to the fires of speculation, I'm currently on a US Navy Watson-class ship built in 2003, and we have accommodations labelled for a Commodore, even though when the ship was built that rank had long been phased out. ("SR" is an abbreviation for "Stateroom".)
(Edit: I have no idea why the images are displaying upside-down on my desktop. They look fine when I view them on mobile and on Dropbox.com)
(Edit: I have no idea why the images are displaying upside-down on my desktop. They look fine when I view them on mobile and on Dropbox.com)
Last edited:
The US Navy does still use Commodore as a title. Indeed, the fact that the rank and title were separate things is part of what led to the Commodore rank being eliminated in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_(United_States)#Present-day_title_usage
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_(United_States)#Present-day_title_usage
I don't think we can assume anything without a picture of Starfleet's higher organization.
Commodore the title, not the rank. Basically a position that is higher than a ship's CO, but still with the rank of captain. In that case, probably a military sealift commander.
What particular elements would you need to see to confirm my theory? Ross was explicitedly per dialogue commanding several fleets and was the most senior flag officer AFAICT involved in Starfleet operations during the war. This matches the US role of UCC, a four star post, despite the fact he visually appears to be a three-star - identified as either a Vice-Admiral [Ross was referred to as such in Dogs of War, and Necheyev in Chain of Command] or Fleet Admiral (Necheyev, Brackett and Shanti, though in at least the first two cases this was probably intended to be the title of the Fleet Commander, not a substantive rank (which if it does exist, should be at least one rank higher)] - I'm sure what other interpretation is possible? However, for clarity I will add that Fleet Commander/Unified Combatant Commander is not the only role I see VADMs holding, but merely the one has gives us the most to go in terms of equivalence.
Last edited:
The whole wiring diagram of the organization above the ship level. How many starships per flag officer? How many levels between starship and fleet, or above that? As I said earlier, Starfleet seems pretty lean in the higher echelons, using starship commanders to command multi-ship action groups. If the fleets only have a rear admiral or two, then a 3-star wouldn't be out of line. Plus being a combined service should eliminate a lot of flag officer redundancy, as we see when the US forces go into action some of the joint component commanders and staffs wind up without much to do.
I agree that with our post-WW2 ideas, 3-star seems low for that position. I just don't think there's enough information to base assumptions on.
Digging a little deeper, the situation vis-a-vis what rank is what is perhaps worse than I thought as while a variety of insignia have been shown, referencesin dialogue to specific grades above Commodore are limited.
ENT: one-pip flag officers are specifically identified as "Commodore", no personnel wearing no-pips with flag uniform are seen so may be assumed to be the lowest flag rank. Two-pip and three-pip admirals are seen but the grades are not given.
TOS (OS, TMP, KT): Commodores wear the basic flag officer uniform only (as in RN), Cdre Paris' insignia of one broad and three narrow blocks may be regarding as conflicting). No additional information on grades is given in any source, but TMP confirms that 1 additional stripe over the CDRE pattern makes you an ADM (assumed to be RADM but not confirmed). If the KT (sans Paris) is used then the existence of a rank that wears 'flag + 3' or four lozenges (Pike) is confirmed and is outranked by the 'five lozenge' ADM Marcus (Head of Starfleet).
TNG s1 & 2: Commodore may exist as an assignment, but the lowest ranking flag officer wears the no additional pips and is still an 'Admiral' (assumed to be RADM Lower Half, but no dialogue for this). At least two additional ranks exist above this.
TNG s3-VOY: No Commodores were seen or referenced directly, however contemporary officers are familiar with the term. The lowest rank seen is a flag officer with two-pips, no grade given in dialogue, the three pip rank is identified as both Vice Admiral and Fleet Admiral (from the context VADM would appear to be the rank (held by HQ Staff), and FADM a role (held by field commanders), a four-pip rank also exists, however the only grade given for this (Rear Admiral) is clearly an error and admitted as such by the episode's writer Ronald D Moore).
I think that all we can say for certain is that there are at least for four flag officer ranks, sometimes five, and that VADM is the second most senior and the most senior rank always held by more than one individual and is either flag officer + 3 (stripes or pips) or 'four star' which in NATO typically corresponds to OF-9/O-10 (a 'full' General or Admiral).
ENT: one-pip flag officers are specifically identified as "Commodore", no personnel wearing no-pips with flag uniform are seen so may be assumed to be the lowest flag rank. Two-pip and three-pip admirals are seen but the grades are not given.
TOS (OS, TMP, KT): Commodores wear the basic flag officer uniform only (as in RN), Cdre Paris' insignia of one broad and three narrow blocks may be regarding as conflicting). No additional information on grades is given in any source, but TMP confirms that 1 additional stripe over the CDRE pattern makes you an ADM (assumed to be RADM but not confirmed). If the KT (sans Paris) is used then the existence of a rank that wears 'flag + 3' or four lozenges (Pike) is confirmed and is outranked by the 'five lozenge' ADM Marcus (Head of Starfleet).
TNG s1 & 2: Commodore may exist as an assignment, but the lowest ranking flag officer wears the no additional pips and is still an 'Admiral' (assumed to be RADM Lower Half, but no dialogue for this). At least two additional ranks exist above this.
TNG s3-VOY: No Commodores were seen or referenced directly, however contemporary officers are familiar with the term. The lowest rank seen is a flag officer with two-pips, no grade given in dialogue, the three pip rank is identified as both Vice Admiral and Fleet Admiral (from the context VADM would appear to be the rank (held by HQ Staff), and FADM a role (held by field commanders), a four-pip rank also exists, however the only grade given for this (Rear Admiral) is clearly an error and admitted as such by the episode's writer Ronald D Moore).
I think that all we can say for certain is that there are at least for four flag officer ranks, sometimes five, and that VADM is the second most senior and the most senior rank always held by more than one individual and is either flag officer + 3 (stripes or pips) or 'four star' which in NATO typically corresponds to OF-9/O-10 (a 'full' General or Admiral).
Real world example of a Commodore-by-rank 'demoting' to Captain to post as Commanding Officer of a major command.
Commodore Jerry Kid, Captain of the new Royal Navy supercarrier HMS Queen Elisabeth, former commander of the frigate HMS Monmouth, the carriers HMS Ark Royal and HMS Illustrious and the Britannia Royal Naval College.
Commodore Jerry Kid, Captain of the new Royal Navy supercarrier HMS Queen Elisabeth, former commander of the frigate HMS Monmouth, the carriers HMS Ark Royal and HMS Illustrious and the Britannia Royal Naval College.
Similar threads
