Reconciling Ranks within different Starfleet Departments.

[J.T.B.]

Actually, UK "one star" ranks - though by NATO protocol considered equivalent to OF-6 brigadier generals/rear admiral lower half - they are regards as OF-5a ("Senior Colonel"/"Captain") with the British Armed Forces (they fly pennets rather than full Command Flags).

RN commodore is not a flag officer and brigadier is not a general officer, but air commodore is an officer of air rank and wears two rows of gold on the cap peak.

Well, I would argue that your own math suggests that there should at least one 5-star officer (1.3 million is a lot closer to 1.7 million than it is 480k), I'd also suggest that your calculations suggest that some of the current 4-star should be 3-stars instead. For instance, it suggests that the USMC should have 1 four-star at most (based on WWII ratios) but they have a minimum of two (The CMC and the ACMC) and can have several more if the JCS Chair or Vice Chair are Marines, or if any of the Unifed Combatant Commanders are Marines (probably rare, but does presumably happen).

If 25 four-stars can run a force of 12 million, I think 40 four-stars should be able to run a force of 1.3 million without the need of a higher grade to supervise them.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

RN commodore is not a flag officer and brigadier is not a general officer, but air commodore is an officer of air rank and wears two rows of gold on the cap peak.

If 25 four-stars can run a force of 12 million, I think 40 four-stars should be able to run a force of 1.3 million without the need of a higher grade to supervise them.

25 and 7 five stars but I conceed the point.

Regardless, any thoughts on the number of 4-stars and above needed for a force of billions?

 

[J.T.B.]

Regardless, any thoughts on the number of 4-stars and above needed for a force of billions?

I would guess the force would be quite massive, but not necessarily requiring higher levels of command. The force seems fairly spread out with few massed formations. Is there an echelon above the fleet? Is one needed? If anything, sometimes Starfleet seems very lean at the top. Why do they use a ship captain to run their blockading force in Redemption part 2?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I would guess the force would be quite massive, but not necessarily requiring higher levels of command. The force seems fairly spread out with few massed formations. Is there an echelon above the fleet? Is one needed? If anything, sometimes Starfleet seems very lean at the top. Why do they use a ship captain to run their blockading force in Redemption part 2?

Honestly... No logical reason really (other than providing a scapegoat if it didn't work). Given that Shanthi (at least a Vice Admiral if not better) and a Rear Admiral (likely the commander of SB234, Shanthi's later appearance at SB247 indicates that she has a roving assignment at minimum) were both available, one of them should have been the Task Force/Mission Commander.

 

[Ithekro]

A five star admiral was a wartime rank mainly to give someone the authority for theater level operations over multiple major units. Most of the time, this is no needed.

It might have returned to Starfleet during a war if they needed a lot of cross region operations. But several of the wars were reletively small scale in terms of sectors of space until the Dominion War, and at that point it seems Starfleet still defaulted to lower rank Admirals, main character captains, and allied Klingon and Romulan leaders.

 

[J.T.B.]

A five star admiral was a wartime rank mainly to give someone the authority for theater level operations over multiple major units. Most of the time, this is no needed.

Indeed, and it was questioned whether it was needed in WW2. Leahy was already senior to King, King was already senior to Nimitz, and Nimitz was already senior to Halsey and Spruance. What really decided the issue was that US officers were out-ranked by their British counterparts on the Combined Chiefs of Staff Committee.

I would also point out that the British used the five-star ranks as an honor for distinguished service as a four-star for officers near retirement as much as to fill higher command levels. In WW2, Alan Brooke took the Army's top post of CIGS in Dec. 1941 and wasn't promoted field marshal until January 1944. Charles Portal was also promoted MRAF in January 1944, but had been Chief of Air Staff from October 1940. Henry Wilson was Supreme Allied Commander Mediterranean as a four-star, and Louis Mountbatten likewise as SAC Southeast Asia.

Eight field marshals were promoted during the war, but only three (Brooke, Alexander, Montgomery) continued in chain-of-command positions. For admirals of the fleet, two out of three. For Marshals of the RAF, one of two.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Had another thought...

In-universe, Starfleet was formed by a merger of UE Starfleet, Andorian Guard and Vulcan High Command (or it's replacement).

UESF ranks were Ensign, Lieutenant, Lieutenant Commander (mirror only?), Commander, Captain, Commodore, Rear Admiral, Vice Admiral and Admiral (Mirror Black).

Vulcan ranks were Sub-Altern/Sub-Lieutenant, Lieutenant (implied), Major, Sub-Commander, Commander, Captain, Fleet Commander, Administrator.

Andorian ranks are the least complete but include Lieutenant, Commander, Captain and General.

Putting the equivalencies we get:

Fed SF Ensign =====> SF Ensign, Vulcan Sub-Altern, unknown Andorian rank. (no stripe)
Fed SF LT-JG ======> No UE rank, Vulcan Sub-Lieutenant, unknown Andorian rank. (1/2 stripe)
Fed SF LT =========> SF Lieutenant, Vulcan Lieutenant, Andorian Lieutenant. (1 stripe)
Fed SF LT-CDR=====> SF Lt Cmdr (?), Vulcan Major, unknown Andorian rank. (1.5 stripes)
Fed SF Commander==> SF Commander, Vulcan Sub-Commander, unknown Andorian rank. (2 stripes)
Fed SF Captain =====> SF Captain, Vulcan Commander, Andorian Commander. (2.5 stripes)
Fed SF Vice Cdre* ===> SF Captain (?), Vulcan Captain, Andorian Captain. (3 stripes)
Fed SF Commodore* ==> SF Commodore, unknown Vulcan rank, unknown Andorian rank. (1 broad stripe)
Fed SF Rear ADM ===> SF Rear Admiral, Vulcan Fleet Commander (?), unknown Andorian rank. (broad +1)
Fed SF Vice ADM ==> SF Vice Admiral, Vulcan Fleet Commander, unknown Andorian rank. (broad +2)
Fed SF Admiral ====> SF Admiral, Vulcan Minister (?), Andorian General (?). (broad +3)
Commander, Starfleet> SF Admiral, Vulcan Administrator (political appointee), Andorian General (broad + 4)

* = Under this system, Decker and Wesley would be Vice Commodores (Starship Captains who can act as Task Force Commanders in the absense of an Admiral), Picard could also be this rank, Sisko is either this or Fleet Captain during the DW (FCPT being the "Chief of Staff" or "First Officer" of a Fleet Commander). By contrast, Mendez, Stocker and Stone et al, who permenantly exercise higher authority than Starship Captains would remain Commodores.

Also, given that the specific ranks of the admirals in Conspiracy are never given (and several Cdres are listed on computer screens) and their prominence, it would probably be best to assume they either rank a grade higher than they appear to (Quinn is a RADM rather than Cdre/RADM (LH), Savar was a VADM rather than a RADM, and Aaron was a full ADM rather than VADM) or that they are all RADM or better and Savar - as he's in the middle - should be wearing the highest rank.

 

[Timo]

I'm not sure there's much point in postulating that a rank left unmentioned in ENT would factually be missing from the ENT-era space navy in question. We simply only saw so many characters: had the camera looked the other way, the Lt (jg) and the Lieutenant Commander would have been there, too.

Again, broader continuity appears to demonstrate the presence of every single USN rank at all times. In TOS, there was no mention of junior Lieutenants, but Joe Tormolen sported unique rank braid perfectly fitting the concept; at most, then, we might say that Kirk's crew had a low number of people of this rank, making it statistically unlikely for the camera to focus on any one of them. To assume that Joe Tormolen represented a dying breed, only to be resurrected in Saavik decades later, sounds too complicated.

As for the "Conspiracy" ranks, we learn a few things there but we can't be sure what exactly it is that we learn. Apparently, the lowest possible rank of Admiral still deserves the form of address "Admiral" despite lacking pips altogether, making it a double anomaly (not addressed as "Commodore" as per TOS, but mysteriously not deserving of even a single star) vis-á-vis the USN model.

Should the trio hold high rank? While we never learn their exact rank, we never learn their exact position, either. Who are these people welcoming the E-D home? It's curious that Picard is assumed to know none of these folks personally or by looks, and indeed does not (or he would comment to his friends that Savar's false assumption of such unfamiliarity is cause for suspicion). On the other hand, Picard makes no effort to contact Earth flag officers he does know personally, or to appeal to Savar's or Aaron's putative superiors.

But on the third tentacle, why would he? Picard's formal excuse for coming to Earth is to chat with Quinn. This he achieves without challenging Aaron or Savar or trying to book an interview with Commander, Starfleet. The time for that would come later, after he has verified that Quinn has been co-opted.

In other words, Aaron being a two-pipper in a system that extends to four pips at the very least is not in contradiction of the plot as such.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Avro Arrow]

Possibly Commodore (rather than Fleet Captain or Deputy Director, which would then be titles) is the substantive rank designated by:

This might account for why we've rarely seen the above.

By this point, though, they had moved to the boxed pip system, so presumably Commodore, if it existed, would be represented by one boxed pip.

My own crazy, no-basis-in-any-facts-actually-presented theory, is that the bar under the pips designates the rare, but apparently existent, marine/infantry-type ranks within Starfleet. So in this case, Sloane would be impersonating a Colonel.

But RAdm (LH) had already long replaced commodore when TOS was being made, and they still went with commodore. So it seems odd that what the US did in 1899 would be the rationale for what Starfleet did with the commodore rank.

Is 1899 really when that happened? Wikipedia claims 1983.

 

[J.T.B.]

Is 1899 really when that happened? Wikipedia claims 1983.

1899, no question about it. What happened was, in 1980 they gave the navy back a one-star rank and called it commodore admiral. In 1982 it was changed to commodore and in 1986 to rear admiral (LH). Commodore was also brought back as a temporary grade during WW2.

From "An Act To reorganize and increase the efficiency of the personnel of the Navy and Marine Corps of the United States," March 3, 1899:

US Navy Register, 1899:

US Navy Register, 1900:

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

By this point, though, they had moved to the boxed pip system, so presumably Commodore, if it existed, would be represented by one boxed pip.

Given that the highest rank seen under the TNG s1 system was flag bar and two pips (Identified as a Vice Admiral by Memory Alpha based on USN ranks), a rank that is typically given three boxed pips that is certainly possible. However, this is extremely unlikely as flag bar only was an "Admiral" rather than a Commodore in Conspiracy (and Commodores were also referenced in text in the same episode), suggesting that Quinn was either a RADM lower half or a similiar non-Anglophone rank like Divisional Admiral (my preference), Counter-Admiral or Flotilla Admiral.

My own crazy, no-basis-in-any-facts-actually-presented theory, is that the bar under the pips designates the rare, but apparently existent, marine/infantry-type ranks within Starfleet. So in this case, Sloane would be impersonating a Colonel.

I could buy the idea that the bar designates a different chain-of-command (although I'd much prefer a different comm badge or shirt colour for this), but Colonels AFAIK have never outranked the captains of the largest ships (Substantive Captains) so I think it's more likely that he was a Brigadier under your system. A Colonel would wear either three pips over a bar or three and a half depending on whether you want two grades of Colonel.

 

[The Wormhole]

I've always just assumed the bar under Sloan's pips was to denote his position of a deputy director. Everything else about him indicated his rank was Captain, he even wore the exclusive Captain's vest which was previously only worn by Picard and Sisko.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I've always just assumed the bar under Sloan's pips was to denote his position of a deputy director. Everything else about him indicated his rank was Captain, he even wore the exclusive Captain's vest which was previously only worn by Picard and Sisko.

So... should Sisko have worn the same as "Head of Starfleet Security" for Earth?

 

[The Wormhole]

So... should Sisko have worn the same as "Head of Starfleet Security" for Earth?

Maybe. Actually, a better question is why didn't Sisko have to switch to gold while he was Head of Starfleet Security on Earth. After all, Admiral Toddman from Starfleet Security stands out as the only gold-shirted admiral in the 24th century, so why did Sisko continue to wear red when he was with Security.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Maybe. Actually, a better question is why didn't Sisko have to switch to gold while he was Head of Starfleet Security on Earth. After all, Admiral Toddman from Starfleet Security stands out as the only gold-shirted admiral in the 24th century, so why did Sisko continue to wear red when he was with Security.

That's a fair point. Although Thomas Henry, a senior admiral within Starfleet Security (either a peer of/or predecessor of Toddman) wore red, as did Leyton and Benteen (tho she was briefly in command of a starship at the end so...).

On a related note, how do Bajoran and Klingon ranks compare?

My thoughts:
Klingon: Fleet Admiral (roughly equivalent to the Starfleet Commander-in-Chief/Commander, Starfleet or the same/similar rank) --> General (roughly Admiral or Vice Admiral) --> Brigadier (roughly Rear Admiral or Commodore) --> Colonel (appears to be a staff rank only) --> Captain/Commander (appears to be used somewhat interchangably, may be a 'veteran' vs 'recent appointee' qualifier) --> Lieutenant (roughly Lt Cdr through Ensign) --> Sergeant (likely a Starfleet PO) --> Warrior (Bekk in Klingon, roughly Crewman (Qualified) or Able Crewman).
Bajoran: Navarch (Commonwealth Field Marshall or US 'five star') --> General (Admiral to Rear Admiral) --> Field Colonel (Commodore/Captain), Colonel (canonically equivalent to Commander) --> Major (junior to Commander, appears to rank with Lieutenant Commander) --> Captain (presumed to exist, but never used in canon, ranks with Starfleet Lieutenant?) --> Lieutenant (probably similar to Starfleet equivalent, may be separated in 1LT and 2LT) --> Ensign (probably similar to Starfleet equivalent). Also, at two or three enlisted ranks exist (basic, first class and Chief. Probably broadly equivalent to Crewman (Qualified)/Able Crewman, Petty Officer and Chief Petty Officer/Specialist in Starfleet?).

 

[Avro Arrow]

Given that the highest rank seen under the TNG s1 system was flag bar and two pips (Identified as a Vice Admiral by Memory Alpha based on USN ranks), a rank that is typically given three boxed pips that is certainly possible.

Despite their rules to the contrary, Memory Alpha is speculating.

However, this is extremely unlikely as flag bar only was an "Admiral" rather than a Commodore in Conspiracy (and Commodores were also referenced in text in the same episode), suggesting that Quinn was either a RADM lower half or a similiar non-Anglophone rank like Divisional Admiral (my preference), Counter-Admiral or Flotilla Admiral.

But my point from an earlier post was that we don't know the whole system. Maybe it's not a "flag bar", it's an "admiral bar", and Quinn is a standard rear admiral, and commodore uses some other device entirely. There is precedent under the Fletcher system for the TOS movies, where all the admiral pins are basically the same (four "arrows"), with different flourishes, but the commodore pin is distinctly different (two "arrows").

Although if we do say that the lowest flag rank has to be an admiral, I do like the suggestion of the non-anglophone admiral ranks, or even something made up entirely. (I think FASA used "Section Admiral", or something like that?) Another one I've thought might be a good fit would be "Commodore Admiral" (which J.T.B. mentioned above), since maybe then you could abbreviate it as either "Commodore" or "Admiral", and you cover both bases!

I could buy the idea that the bar designates a different chain-of-command (although I'd much prefer a different comm badge or shirt colour for this), but Colonels AFAIK have never outranked the captains of the largest ships (Substantive Captains) so I think it's more likely that he was a Brigadier under your system. A Colonel would wear either three pips over a bar or three and a half depending on whether you want two grades of Colonel.

Is that true? In the Canadian system, and the US, Colonel and Captain are always listed as equal ranks, and in the US system, they even have the same insignia.

In "Inquisition", Sloan did not seem to outrank Sisko, and in fact when Sisko wanted to see Bashir in prison, Sloan was unable to stop him. I think they just generally had to defer to Sloan because he was part of Internal Affairs, and was conducting an active investigation. (With the caveat that it was really all just an illusion.)

If you're basing Colonel = 3 pips on Kira from season 7, I just always figured that was due to some disparity between the Federation rank system and the Bajoran rank system.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Is that true? In the Canadian system, and the US, Colonel and Captain are always listed as equal ranks, and in the US system, they even have the same insignia.

I may have worded that badly. In modern day, Colonels and Captains-by-rank are generally assumed to be equals. In order for Sloan's rank to outrank Sisko in 'army-style' ranks he'd have to be at least a Brigadier rather than a Colonel.

In "Inquisition", Sloan did not seem to outrank Sisko, and in fact when Sisko wanted to see Bashir in prison, Sloan was unable to stop him. I think they just generally had to defer to Sloan because he was part of Internal Affairs, and was conducting an active investigation. (With the caveat that it was really all just an illusion.)

If you're basing Colonel = 3 pips on Kira from season 7, I just always figured that was due to some disparity between the Federation rank system and the Bajoran rank system.

That's certainly a fair point and was definately supposed to be a factor (deligated authority is definately a thing), but the insignia definately seems to be impling greater/different rank than Sisko.

Kira definately wore three pips (designating Commander) as a Starfleet officer, however that could be as much a function of role equivalency rather than rank equivalency (in Starfleet XOs of major commands are either CDRs or LCDRs not CAPTs, the BM apparently assigns this role to Majors and Colonels, with Field Colonel as a Major Command CO rank.

 

[The Wormhole]

Colonel (canonically equivalent to Commander) -->

It is possible Kira's actual rank was Lieutenant Colonel, which in the US is an equal grade to Commander, as well as being the next rank up from Major. And it is permissible to address Lt. Colonels as just "Colonel." Granted, she's always referred to as Colonel and never Lt. Colonel during the seventh season, but then Chakotay is always addressed as Commander throughout all seven seasons on Voyager. Despite the fact he always wore a Lieutenant Commander's rank insignia, he is never once addressed by that rank.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

It is possible Kira's actual rank was Lieutenant Colonel, which in the US is an equal grade to Commander, as well as being the next rank up from Major. And it is permissible to address Lt. Colonels as just "Colonel." Granted, she's always referred to as Colonel and never Lt. Colonel during the seventh season, but then Chakotay is always addressed as Commander throughout all seven seasons on Voyager. Despite the fact he always wore a Lieutenant Commander's rank insignia, he is never once addressed by that rank.

My theory vis-a-vis Chakotay is that both could be true. His rank of Provisional Commander equates to a Substantive Lieutenant Commander, similar to how "full" Ensign is a promotion for an Acting Ensign.

 

[The Wormhole]

My thinking has always been simpler, Lt. Commander was Chakotay's rank before he left Starfleet, therefore Janeway reinstated him as one when he came aboard Voyager.