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Realistic vs Luxury Crew Quarters

....

Most cruise ship lines seem to number their ships from the bottom up, like a building. A GIS* did not return any hits of a modern ship using a top-to-bottom numbering system.

....


If anyone cares, the Titanic decks were A-G going top down. But they also all had proper names as well. From the top down they were the

Boat Deck (no letter)
Promenade Deck (A)
Bridge Deck (B)
Shelter Deck (C)
Saloon Deck (D)
Upper Deck (E)
Middle Deck (F)
Lower Deck (G)
A couple of "Orlop" Decks which don't run the whole length of the ship.
Tanks and Boilers.

Granted, this was a century ago, and maybe modern ships do it different. Which just goes to show that however Star Trek does it has nothing to do with 21st century ocean-going ships.

The idea of having non-continuous decks is something I'm definitely applying to my take on the Enterprise interior.

--Alex
 
If anyone cares, the Titanic decks were A-G going top down. But they also all had proper names as well. From the top down they were the

Boat Deck (no letter)
Promenade Deck (A)
Bridge Deck (B)
Shelter Deck (C)
Saloon Deck (D)
Upper Deck (E)
Middle Deck (F)
Lower Deck (G)
A couple of "Orlop" Decks which don't run the whole length of the ship.
Tanks and Boilers.

Granted, this was a century ago, and maybe modern ships do it different. Which just goes to show that however Star Trek does it has nothing to do with 21st century ocean-going ships.

The idea of having non-continuous decks is something I'm definitely applying to my take on the Enterprise interior.

--Alex


Titanic is the one real ship whose deck plans I'm familiar with.
 
....

I think the 947-foot size was just a little too small, not way too small. I wonder how the figure was arrived at.


I have a suspicion, but as far as I know it's unconfirmed.

The rumors I've heard is that Jefferies originally designed the ship to be 540 feet long. The model and the sets were already being built by the time is was decided that the ship needed to be bigger. But the artwork for the bridge (hull pressure diagram and turbolift alcove diagram) were already made assuming the smaller ship. The 11 foot model was originally intended to be a 1:48 scale model of a 540 foot ship and the little numbers on the engineering hull are how many 1:48 scale inches the mark is from the forward end of the engineering hull. But then it was decided the ship should be bigger so more windows are added.

But how much bigger?

I heard that originally the upper superstructure of the saucer, (what some call the B-C Deck) was the bridge in it's entirety and the bubble that we think of as the bridge was the domed ceiling area of the bridge set. But making the ship twice as big means its easy to put the bridge into the upper dome and have the rest of the superstructure be a couple of decks. So I propose that Matt Jefferies measured the diameter of that dome on the model and then measured the diameter of the set on the soundstage, and did that math to see how big the dome would need to be to snuggly hold the bridge set. Once the dust settled, the bottom line was that the ship would need to be 947 feet long for that dome on the model to accommodate the bridge set.

If someone knows for sure that it happened another way, I'd love to learn the truth of the matter.

--Alex


(P.S. I hope that makes sense. I'm also watching old episodes of Fringe while I type this so my distracted mind might be poorly explaining this. Sorry. --AM)
 
So I propose that Matt Jefferies measured the diameter of that dome on the model and then measured the diameter of the set on the soundstage, and did that math to see how big the dome would need to be to snuggly hold the bridge set. Once the dust settled, the bottom line was that the ship would need to be 947 feet long for that dome on the model to accommodate the bridge set.


I'll bet that's what happened. I just wish he had allowed for a more generous housing of the set, which in turn would free up more space all over.
 
If someone knows for sure that it happened another way, I'd love to learn the truth of the matter.
It happened another way... and has been discussed quite a few times already.

Amazingly, in this post you quoted me from a post where I gave specific details (including dates of key events) of how the size came to be... but you seem to have dismissed all that.

If you really wanted to know the truth of the matter, you'd already know. :wtf:
 
... and has been discussed quite a few times already.

... but you seem to have dismissed all that.

If you really wanted to know the truth of the matter, you'd already know. :wtf:

Or he simply forgot about something from several years ago. In which case, you've chosen an appropriate avatar. :grumpy old man:
 
That's just Shaw's style when he has to repeat himself - but he does have a lot of information that is worth taking the time to delve into.
With regard to ZapBrannigan's question and Albertese's response, this post is also worth checking out.

The Bridge graphics are great in that they offer us a glimpse into an Enterprise that might have been - similar in layout to the one we know, but different in many of the finished details (the upper saucer superstructure for one)
 
If someone knows for sure that it happened another way, I'd love to learn the truth of the matter.
It happened another way... and has been discussed quite a few times already.

Amazingly, in this post you quoted me from a post where I gave specific details (including dates of key events) of how the size came to be... but you seem to have dismissed all that.

If you really wanted to know the truth of the matter, you'd already know. :wtf:


Amazing that I could forget something I read six years ago.:rolleyes:

Please don't misunderstand me Shaw, I consider you the authority on the subject. I wish your work was centrally archived and indexed somewhere for reference. It would be easier to go back and exorcise misconceptions if we could handily review your work.

Have you considered compiling a book or some kind of reference website to organize your findings? That would be amazing. And I'm sure we'd all find it extremely useful and informative.

--Alex
 
Presupposes that deck 2 is directly under the bridge. Was there ever a TOS canon reference to the bridge as deck 1?

Not on air. But The Making of Star Trek (1968) describes the decks in a way that Franz Joseph followed very closely, including putting 1 at the top, if I recall.
This line of thought was more or less confirmed in TMP and the movies, with the bridge as "A-Deck". However, this is TOS so I thought it might be fun to look at dialogue in the show related to this issue.

MUDD'S WOMEN
(Spock and MW walk from the Transporter Room to a turbolift)
SPOCK: Deck twelve.
(they go up several decks)

ENEMY WITHIN
(GT Fisher has just run out of Rand's cabin)
FISHER: Deck twelve, section--

DAGGER OF THE MIND
(Van Gelder has been spotted wearing an Engineering jumpsuit in the wrong area of the ship)
UHURA: Captain, section C deck fourteen, reporting trouble. Someone in Engineering uniform.
KIRK: Security control, this is the Bridge. Come in.
SPOCK: I have them, Captain. Closing off deck fourteen, search in progress.
I wanted to get these out of the way because they seem to belong to the notion of the 20-deck thick saucer Enterprise (Deck 12 would be the widest part). Of special note is the fact that an Engineer would dare to be wandering around the saucer! Back to your pit, slave!!! :devil: These dialogue references cause trouble for many, since Deck 12 would be somewhere in the Pylon if the decks were counted down from the Bridge (my solution is simply to ignore the pylon, its mostly girders and support struts anyway). And speaking of oddities in terminology:

CONSCIENCE OF THE KING
SECURITY: Captain? Security, H deck, The weapons locker has been broken into. One phaser is missing.

COURT MARTIAL
STONE: Finney.
KIRK; Localise that.
SPOCK: B deck, in or near Engineering.
KIRK: Seal off B deck, sections 18Y through 23D
While its possible that letters are being used to represent decks, Robert_Comsol offered a more plausible solution in the form of (B)erthing Deck and (H)angar Deck. Certainly, the alphabetical system is not heard from again until the movies.

ERRAND OF MERCY
(The Enterprise is struck by several energy blasts in the lower saucer area)
SPOCK: Blast damage in decks ten and eleven, minor buckling in the antimatter pods, casualties very light.

CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER
(Mad McCoy has just left the Bridge)
KIRK: Continue alert, decks four through eleven.
Both these quotes strongly indicate an 11-deck saucer, with the first 3 decks at the top (and being smaller are more easily confirmed to be free of Mad McCoy) and some sort of anti-matter containment at the bottom (near the weapons systems, so makes sense)

AMOK TIME
(Kirk and Spock exit the Bridge, heading for Sickbay)
KIRK: Deck five. You've changed course for Vulcan, Mister Spock. Why?

MIRROR MIRROR
(Kirk and Chekov exit the Bridge)
KIRK: I shall be in my quarters.
...
CHEKOV: Deck five, sir?
(Kirk nods)

ULTIMATE COMPUTER
SCOTT: Captain, power shutdowns on deck four. Lights, environmental control.
...
SCOTT: The power's gone off on deck five.
...
DAYSTROM: Decks four and six are living quarters, are they not?
KIRK: Yes, that's correct.

ELAAN OF TROYIUS
(Kirk and Elaan exit the Bridge)
KIRK: I want you to go to Sickbay. It's the best protected part of the ship.
...
KIRK: Deck five.

LET THAT BE YOUR LAST BATTLEFIELD
BELE: You're the captain.
KIRK: Yes, I am. I think we can consider your problem settled. At least for the present. I have ordered guest quarters for you on deck six.

If Decks 5 and 6 are the widest part of the saucer then the centre (where Sickbay is) should indeed be the safest part of the ship. It also makes sense to spread the most living quarters around in this area. If Decks 5 and 6 were counted from the bottom of the secondary hull then there would considerably less space and that is before things like shuttle facilities and deflector machinery (which we know are there from the external view) are taken into account. Again, strong indications that deck numbering starts from the top of the saucer.

The following dialogue is from the first episode, where a half mile Enterprise may still have been in mind:
CORBOMITE MANEUVER
(Bailey is running a battle drill)
BAILEY: On the double, deck five! Give me a green light.
...
BAILEY [OC]: Engineering, deck five, report. Phaser crews, come on, let's get with it.
However, we then get this snippet from the Animated Series!
TIME TRAP
SPOCK: Where are you supposed to be working?
KLINGON: Engineering, deck five.
SPOCK: Captain, allow me to escort this young man to his work area.

A lot of early dialogue referred to "decks and Engineering Levels", indicating that the secondary hull had "levels" while the term "deck" was reserved for the saucer. However, as time went on the terms became more interchangeable, especially as several episodes point to the presence of one or more Engine Rooms in the saucer as well:

DAY OF THE DOVE
(Bulkheads to the "lower decks" have closed, trapping 392 people)
SPOCK: The Klingons control deck six and starboard deck seven, while we control all sections above.
(The Engine Room is still accessible however)

And finally:
ENTERPRISE INCIDENT
(Spock and Romulan exit the Bridge)
SPOCK: Deck two.
As mentioned upthread we don't actually see the motion lights, so Spock could well have pressed the "hold" button while he finished his conversation. There are a couple of other theories on the BBS as well that make good sense, but suffice to say that Spock's "Deck 2" isn't a deal breaker.

So in summary; nothing concrete, but a lot of strong indications that decks are numbered from the top of the saucer down. It could work the other round but requires a lot more mental gymnastics.
 
Just for kicks and giggles, I wondered what a ship with 20 decks through the saucer would look like.

Writers_Guide_Enterprise.jpg


I'm surprised at how well the windows line up. Imagine how easy it would all be to fit everything into this beast! Since Decks 5 and 12 were mentioned, I highlighted them in blue and red. I also highlighted the bridge as level 1 in yellow.

--Alex
 
Just for kicks and giggles, I wondered what a ship with 20 decks through the saucer would look like.

Writers_Guide_Enterprise.jpg


I'm surprised at how well the windows line up. Imagine how easy it would all be to fit everything into this beast! Since Decks 5 and 12 were mentioned, I highlighted them in blue and red. I also highlighted the bridge as level 1 in yellow.

--Alex

I'm at work, where your image hosting site is evidently blocked by the firewall. I can't wait to see this at my first opportunity on Saturday night. :bolian:
 
Don't get too excited, it's just a bunch of horizontal lines superimposed over Sinclar's Portside profile.

But it is 50+ decks high all told. This version of the TOS E is bigger than the D!

--Alex
 
@Mytran - That was a lot of effort for such an innocuous question!:) I'm not sure I agree with the mental gymnastics to do the flip since you are inventing/retconning a hold button for TEI. The lettered decks could be taken as engineering hull deck nomenclature. Otherwise, at eleven decks thick, all the verbal deck references are in the primary hull (save deck 12.)
@Albertese: IDK, I kinda like it.:lol: You might even be able to fit four Warped9-sized shuttlecraft in it.:guffaw: (oh, FYI, if the yellow is deck 1, then the red bar is deck 11. ;))
 
@BK613 - yes, my post turned out a lot longer than I thought! However, this thread had suddenly got me very curious as to how well TOS stuck to the "top to bottom" deck system and indeed the 11-deck saucer in general, so it was time well spent.

@Albertese: IDK, I kinda like it.:lol: You might even be able to fit four Warped9-sized shuttlecraft in it.:guffaw: (oh, FYI, if the yellow is deck 1, then the red bar is deck 11. ;))
Or why not move Deck 1 up to the top of the dome? At twice the radius of the usual one there'd be plenty of space for the Bridge and Turbolift, which the WNMHGB Briefing Lounge on the lower dome. Also, could the Bridge finally face forwards? ;)

I am impressed at how well the windows line up the 20 decks though. Coincidence?
 
I wonder if an Enterprise-A, scaled up to fit 78 decks in a continuous shaft, would work as well as this supersized 1701?
 
@Mytran - That was a lot of effort for such an innocuous question!:) I'm not sure I agree with the mental gymnastics to do the flip since you are inventing/retconning a hold button for TEI. The lettered decks could be taken as engineering hull deck nomenclature. Otherwise, at eleven decks thick, all the verbal deck references are in the primary hull (save deck 12.)
@Albertese: IDK, I kinda like it.:lol: You might even be able to fit four Warped9-sized shuttlecraft in it.:guffaw: (oh, FYI, if the yellow is deck 1, then the red bar is deck 11. ;))

Whoops! that's what I get for working too fast.

And I figured the space above Deck one would be devoted to sensor machinery for the upper dome. But it wouldn't have to be. Also, I think there's all kinds of room for a forward facing bridge, put on any level.

--Alex
 
I am impressed at how well the windows line up the 20 decks though. Coincidence?
I wonder if the twenty-deck thickness thinking was in play when the windows were applied.
And I figured the space above Deck one would be devoted to sensor machinery for the upper dome.
Hmm, could you have sensible asymmetrical deck spacing (to accommodate Engineering, etc) and have eleven decks in the space that those twenty decks take up?

A back-of-the-napkin calculation comes up with approximately 1722 ft (524.8 meters) for this puppy... 20/11 * 947 = 1721.8.
Is that too big?:lol:
 
Except that unless the decks were really, really short you won't fit 11 decks in the saucer of a 947' Enterprise (Aridas did some awesome mental gymnastics to fit his in). Allow a more reasonable 10' between floor levels (the same as TMP) and 8 decks is more what you can expect. With that in mind...

947÷8 x 20 = 2367.5 feet long, around half a mile.
 
Amazing that I could forget something I read six years ago.:rolleyes:
Specially about a topic you are supposed to be interested in.

The thing is, I remembered that you were part of that discussion (which is a truly meaningless bit of info) six years ago.

Please don't misunderstand me Shaw, I consider you the authority on the subject. I wish your work was centrally archived and indexed somewhere for reference. It would be easier to go back and exorcise misconceptions if we could handily review your work.

Have you considered compiling a book or some kind of reference website to organize your findings? That would be amazing. And I'm sure we'd all find it extremely useful and informative.
Honestly, why would I waste my time when it looks like you guys want to forget the facts so you can come up with new bizarre theories.

For example, if BK613 can ask:
I wonder if the twenty-deck thickness thinking was in play when the windows were applied.
with all the information that I've provided, then why would I want to work to provide it again?

From what I can see, you guys are hooked on the conspiracy theory type of discussions and facts only get in the way. I'm sure someone will be wondering if the 78 deck high turbo shaft from STV:TFF was in play when the windows were applied. I keep seeing retreading of dis-proven theories by people who should know better and I can't imagine why I should supply the same information over and over again.

I have tons of information, but from my point of view, you guys can't get past the basics.

It reminds me of my niece after I had gone over basic addition. I had shown her that "2+2=4" and she said she wanted to go onto multiplication. When I asked her what "2+2" was she stated "22". She wasn't ready.

You guys need to master the basics. If you guys can't retain the simple stuff shortly after reading it, the really cool stuff would be lost even faster.


Here is a simple question... how many decks did Jefferies design the Enterprise's primary hull to have?

For a bonus... with the bridge at 0', how many feet down were each of those decks?


8 decks

Deck 2 is at -10', deck 3 is at -22', deck 4 is at -32', deck 5 is at -44', deck 6 is at -54', deck 7 is at -64', and deck 8 is at -74'.
 
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