RDA Era Vs Moffat Era

[Sci]

And people keep going on about Moffat’s Who having no emotion? I really don’t get it, especially given some of the things we’ve seen this series alone in The Doctor’s Wife, The Girl who Waited and the God Complex. Just because Tennant and Billie aren’t emoting like crazy and the Murray Gold score isn’t ratcheted up to eleven doesn’t mean the emotion isn’t there. It’s just quieter.

I'm not sure who you're referring to when you say "people keep going on about Moffat's Who having no emotion." I for one don't think that at all. But, as I've said before, and which you affirm above, Moffat's is quieter. It's more emotionally restrained. Which is not bad, but it is different.

Personally, I miss the mania. I miss the actors emoting like crazy and the Murray Gold score being ratched up to eleven. I miss those moments of absolute transcendent emotion, and I wish Moffat would do it more often. He comes close sometimes -- the Doctor running around in "The Eleventh Hour;" the TARDIS returning in "The Big Bang;" Abigail singing at the end of "A Christmas Carol" (and, to his credit, it turns out that Moffat does sustained Christmas schmaltz better than RTD); the Doctor and TARDIS!Idris chasing the runaway House!TARDIS across the universe in "The Doctor's Wife." But, (with the exception, I would argue, of the finale of "Vincent and the Doctor"), Moffat's Who never quite reaches that level of transcendent euphoria that RTD could reach, and I'm sorry for that.

What is interesting to me, though, is that his Who is more consistently melancholy than RTD's. That's not a bad thing at all -- while I think that RTD reaches greater heights of sadness in short spurts, like Rose's loss in "Doomsday" or the Doctor's scenes with Adelaide in "The Waters of Mars" or the final scene between Wilf and the Doctor in "Journey's End" -- I think Moffat's work has a more steady sense of sadness underlying much of it, which means that he does tragedy better than RTD on the whole. "The Girl in the Fireplace," for instance, isn't just tragic because the Doctor loses a woman he loves; it's tragic because you can tell he feels fundamentally alone and has for a very long time. "Forest of the Dead" isn't just tragic because the Doctor loses River Song; it's tragic because you can tell the Doctor has lost someone he cared about and trusted implicitly before, once upon a time, and now he's realizing he's going to have a similar doomed relationship with River in the future. There's a consistency to Moffat's works' melancholy that lends it an extra dimension of sadness that I think RTD's work usually lacks.

But, the other side of that is, I think that underlying melancholy is often present even in episodes where it needn't be, and so I think it tends to prevent even his happy endings from reaching sheer euphoria. Moffat does Christmas schmaltz better than RTD, and how brilliant is it that there's a Doctor Who Christmas song? -- and yet the joy of Abigail's love redeeming Karzan and saving the day is undermined by the knowledge that she will soon die. The TARDIS may return the Doctor to reality at Amy's wedding, but the happiness of his survival is undermined by the sadness of his initial absence, and by the knowledge both of the costs of his upcoming relationship with River (and by the sense of could-have-been that continues in some ways to underly the Amy/Doctor relationship -- Amy's made her choice, but they're both keenly aware of what might have been, hence the "you may definitely kiss the bride" bits).

I love them both, mind you, but I definitely miss the mania and euphoria that RTD could bring to it. The Doctor's return in "Last of the Time Lords," or the TARDIS towing the Earth back home in "Journey's End" -- moments like those are pure magic, and I do miss them.

This isn’t to say there aren’t things about the RTD era I miss, and for me the real shame of the Moffat era is that he doesn’t have an RTD to handle that one tonally different episode a series, in the way that RTD had Moff.

It would be really wonderful if RTD could come back and do one episode a year the way Moffat used to, wouldn't it? Oh well -- at least we got to see RTD write for the Eleventh Doctor in Death of the Doctor over on Sarah Jane Adventures last year.

 

[VDCNI]

Well I haven't watched the last few episodes, they're all sitting on my V+ Box, last time something like that happened was, uh the end of RTD's second season when I skipped L&M & Fear Her. At the moment Doctor Who isn't essential viewing for me - I'm probably more excited about Merlin coming back but it goes in cycles. The god awful beach scene at the end of the second series almost put me off Who forever (thank god Donna turned up!) but then I enjoyed Runaway Bride and initially like Marth and season 3 until The Daleks Take Manhatten and the whole unrequited love bollocks. Then Voyage of The Dammed made it look like RTD had completely lost it but then Season 4 was the best thing he ever did with the show.

I'd say overall I prefer RTD so far but a lot of that is because I couldn't care less about the arc, we know the Doctor isn't going to die so it all seems a bit pointless. Plus in Amy Pond they have created the worst companion in the history of the show who exists to be the centre of plot twists rather than be an actual character. It's frustrating because The Doctor's Wife showed just how good the show can be.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I've been holding off commenting mostly because I think it's silly to even have this debate. Every era, whether it's Moffat, Davies, JNT, Hinchcliffe, Lambert, has had big pluses and big negatives. The key is to know when to love the good bits and move pass the bad bits. As a result, I also abstain from voting because I love all eras of Doctor Who (yes, even the questionable sections of JNT's long run).

It's frustrating because The Doctor's Wife showed just how good the show can be.

Then you have something to look forward to. The last two episodes, "The Girl Who Waited" and "The God Complex" are almost on par with "The Doctor's Wife." Some of the best Doctor Who I've seen since the show returned.

 

[MacLeod]

The more I spend time in Who forums I find Who fandom isn't really a fandom at all, its a lot of disparate groups battling to prove their favourite era (usually proportionate to the era that they grew up with) is the best of all.

OK you get that in Trek too but at least with the different series you can happily segregate yourself into being a DS9 fan and not bother with Voyager, but who Fans just can't seem to do that whole "oh, maybe this era of the show is not for me, I'm not going to stop watching I'm going to shout loudly about it and wish they'd put things back the way I liked it!"

So Baker fans hate RTD fans and Mccoy Fans (Are there any? ) hate Troughton fans and on and on it goes...

Me? Personally I grew up in the void between series, one of the few generations that was denied the treat of Doctor Who being on every Saturday as they matured.
So I have a fondness for the RTD era which introduced this fantastic new show to me, but I do still like what is being produced now, just not to such an extreme level.
I think it's mainly because I haven't quite clicked with the 11th Doctor.
Moffat is turning the Doctor into quite a nasty character (lies, tricks his companions and generally more morally ambiguous and not in a fun way which isn't what the Doctor should be, imo) which I'm not too keen on, but otherwise the man has made few missteps. (Except allowing James Corden to have a role in the series...TWICE! Good God man what's wrong with you...?)

What I hate is the hypocrisy of original series fans who would criticise the RTD era to death about it being too emotional and "soapy" who are now praising the Moffat era despite it being exactly the same, in that regard.
(Companion fancying the Doctor, wedding, Girl Who Waited pretty much the most soapy episode since the revival)
C'mon, the superficial stuff might have changed (Tardis, Doctor, Companions, theme tune etc) but at its core the show has largely been the same since 2005.
There aren't suddenly any episodes about entropy and high end mathematical concepts, its still the Doctor and his companions and their relationships!

No doubt about it, there's a subsection of Who fandom who hated RTD just because of what he was and resented that when their show finally came back it was in the hands of a gay man.
There, I said it, and I'm not accusing anyone here btw its more the uk based forums I'm on, but a vocal minority of posters would jump on anything RTD did and especially highlighted the Gay references in the series calling them some kind of "agenda" and are now ignoring the fact that Moffat is doing the exact same thing!

Sadly there'll always be a minority of people spoiling it for everyone else!

From Memory the seventh Doctor, was quite manipulative at least towards the end. So it is within the established characteristics of the Doctor, for him to be more morally ambigious at times.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I have trouble finding them dramatically different enough to be called "eras".

RTD was more whimsical in some stories and that's a big appeal to some though it's not my cup of tea. I found it easy to think Moffat was more of a lightweight until I actually went back and looked at what the eps had been.. I think the greatness of Moffat is less flashy than RTD. I love both of them but the Moffat story arcs have really grabbed me so I would be voting Moffat except it's really too close to vote so I've abstained.

On another note my varying RL friends who got me into Who all hate the Moffat era, seem to think it is "silly" compared to RTD, loath Amy Pond and Smith and are on the verge of dropping the series. The criticisms about Pond and Smith being too young I find very tedious because they are both great actors, Smith in particular. Amy Pond is now my favorite companion for a lot of reasons other people don't seem to see.. once again I think the lack of LOUDNESS that we had with RTD (Rose.. Donna..) leads people to think less is going on when that is not the case.

 

[WinstonSmith]

recently I've heard a lot of moaning and grumbling about moffat's tenure as showrunner (not necessarily on here, I know a lot of people in real life who, despite apparently being "fans" of the show seem to think it's absolutely terrible), and I don't really get it. sure Moffat's who is different, but as far as I can tell only in the fact that it's a little more serialised, which people don't seem to complain about in many other shows, despite that it's pretty much been a mainstay in modern drama since Lost at the very least. one of my main problems with RTD's writing was the "whimsicalness" that teacake mentioned, not so much that some of the plot was completely ridiculous, but that the writing seemed to treat itself as if "well, we're making it for the kiddies, so we can just do whatever the hell we want and have a giant cyberman crush half of victorian london!" and I think that's been cut back on a bit in the new era, which personally makes me favour moffat more than RTD, but taking away that issue (and I recognise that a lot of people don't really care about it) they're not really that different from each other. now, that's not saying that moffat is perfect either, episodes like the all-over-the-place let's kill Hitler prove that, but at the end of the day, when I'm flicking through channels for something to watch, I'm gonna pick doctor who over jersey shore no matter who wrote the episode, and that's all that really matters

 

[TigerOfDarkness]

So Baker fans hate RTD fans and Mccoy Fans (Are there any? ) hate Troughton fans and on and on it goes...

Is that true?!!?? I have a favourite Doctor but don't object to people who have a different opinion.

 

[VDCNI]

I've almost never known Who fans to act like that. Most Who fans seem to love the majority of Doctor's.

 

[Captaindemotion]

I'm coming to this very late and haven't read all the posts, just the central question. And I voted RTD. While Smith is my favourite of the three Doctors (and of any Doctor), I do think that the stories and ongoing plots were better during Davies' era.

Moffatt seemed to work better as a guest writer, throwing in the odd brilliant standalone story, than he was as a show-runner. The narrative arcs have been somewhat confused under his tenure and continuity has not been his strong point (one week Amy and Rory are desperate to find their daughter, the next week, no mention of her).

For all Davies' faults (excessive sentiment, a bit of fanwankery), I do think that he put together a better structured programme and series of programmes.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

I personally think there's problems to both and pluses to both. But the thing is I thought Series 5 was brilliant, series 6 has been all over the place, lot of rubbish, some good, so the difference for me isn't so much Davis vs Moffat as series 5 vs series 6. Really enjoyed 1-4 as soon as Smith came along he was more or less instantly my favourite Doctor of the new run, but this series has left me cold, Amy is getting on my nerves, although I love Rory, and the stories, despite having a huge arc seem too quick to drop points that could be interesting, and stuff I'm not enjoying goes on for far too long. So If we went series 1 vs series 5 I would find it hard to choose, if we went series 6 vs series 2 I'm fairly sure I'd go with series 2.

 

[Charlie Kelly]

I've enjoyed series 5 & 6 but I think it's lost the spark that the RTD era had; I don't know how to describe it but it's like something's missing.

 

[Count Zero]

Well, I gave up watching after Let's Kill Hitler so I guess that means I prefer the RTD era.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

I've enjoyed series 5 & 6 but I think it's lost the spark that the RTD era had; I don't know how to describe it but it's like something's missing.

What's missing is that there's no point-of-view character, no emotional anchor.

The eleventh Doctor is not the dashing, charming man of action his predecessor was. He's a bit cryptic, a bit off. We can't really understand him or relate to him. Amy's a self-centered, emotionally distant character so she doesn't work as the point-of-view character either. The only choice left is Rory, who would be perfect for that, but for some reason the writers don't put much focus on him and have made no attempt to turn him into the de facto protagonist.

Right now, the series is very good and very enjoyable, but when people say that it's lost a spark, what they're really saying is that there's no one in the show they can really relate to.

 

[Phily B]

The wrestling analogy is nice, but I think of it more like Brannon Braga.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Both have been fine. I've preferred re-watching Moffat's era to RTD's, the exception being series 4 with Donna. I do wish Moffat would tone back on the Bill&Ted Timetravel Hijinks effects like cleaning up Corden's house and such.

 

[Trubinator]

I prefer both seasons five and six overwhelming to the RTD era. The writing, production values, storytelling and acting are just much, much better. I understand people may complain and prefer the pacing of seasons 1-4, but honestly I believe most fans just miss the old characters more than anything else. The only thing about season six that bothers me so far is that a few of the episodes were a little funky.

 

[Phily B]

I've enjoyed series 5 & 6 but I think it's lost the spark that the RTD era had; I don't know how to describe it but it's like something's missing.

i know what you mean, its like it lacks soul.

 

[Neroon]

I can't disagree more. I loved the RTD era, obviously as that's what brought me into the Whovian fold. Yet I see a deep connection between the primary characters of the Moffatt era. Part of that comes from what I consider to be Matt Smith turning in well-executed performances in a diverse group of settings. Part of it comes from the way Moffat has had the character of Rory Williams developed. And I have to admit that Murray Gold's score during this era has had a significant effect on me.

Whatever combination of factors are involved, I've felt series 5 and 6 work in a different but no less powerful way than RTD's.

 

[Blamo]

I was thinking this is a hard choice... Then I remembered Aliens of London 2 parter, New Earth, Fear Her, Love and Monsters, Army of Ghosts, Bad Wolf, the RTD series 3 and 4 finales, Idiots Lantern and nearly all the RTD specials.

Then there's the general lack of plot to be found in RTD stories.

So on reflection the answer is easy for me, Moffat era wins.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed both, I'm just enjoying Moffat's era more.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I'm all sadness that my RL friends are so down on Who now, after they were so into it in the Tennant seasons. It's kind of reminding me of something.. what could it be..