Rate 8x12: Death In Heaven

[Mr Light]

"Time-locking" the Time War only makes sense if the entire existence of Gallifrey and the Daleks are time-locked.

Or else, why doesn't the Doctor or a Dalek just travel to the point before the time-lock and warn their people of what's going to happen? How can a time traveling culture disappear from the entire timestream unless their entire existance is locked out? If the Doctor is so desperately lonely for his people why doesn't he just travel to a point that a pre-Time War Time Lord was visiting? And warn them?

That's why Clara visiting Baby Doc doesn't make any sense.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

Gallifrey is

Frozen. Frozen in an instant of time, safe and hidden away.

("The Day of the Doctor")

When the planet disappeared, the Dalek ships would destroy themselves in a massive crossfire. The resulting explosions would blind the universe to the reality that Gallifrey has been moved to another universe, and make it seem that both sides were destroyed at the final battle. The history of the Time War as presented up to the above named episode was ret-conned by a timey-wimey event.

It's not a complete time-lock as the Time Lords granted a second set of cycles to the Doctor.

 

[Ithekro]

The Doctor has rules about time travel, and they are strict, even for him, when it comes to Gallifrey. As we have seen, the Daleks survived. They have an empire at various times. It is clear that it could not have only been the Victory of the Daleks version that recreated their empire, as the Asylem housed Daleks that had fought the Doctor in his long past (1st to 7th Doctor eras).

The Doctor had gone to Skaro many times in its past and future. He'd tried to stop Davros from even making the Daleks. He's been there to destroy the Daleks as the Second Doctor by introducing "good" Daleks. Daleks that questioned their orders.

The Doctor doesn't like to go to his own past. It hurts too much. Plus the Timelords would probably arrest him if he tried. Or he'd have to pose as the Valeyard to keep history correct.

One other things about the Doctor. He doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. He barely passed at the Academy. He ran away from Gallifrey in a stolen, old, faulty TARDIS. He still doesn't know how everything works on his TARDIS, nor does he know how time and space all work. He had learned via experiance and age. The laws of Time were a major things (that he kept breaking) and when he did bad things happened, or the Timelords came and fixed it.

The Time War is timelocked. One is not suppose to be able to get in or out of the Time War. The time lock seems to not be a device or weapon, but just that there was so much time travel and fixed points involved that a time traveler cannot get in or out because the fabric of time is so messed up and or dense that one can't get through it. I guess it is sort of like New York City in the late 1930s preventing the Doctor from going back for Amy and Rory. Dalek Cahn manage to do so for the Time War, but at the cost of his mind. The Moment managed to get the Doctors and his TARDISes to the Last Day of the War. But that is a temporal superweapon. The Timelords and Daleks nearly destroyed the universe in their wars. Both sides probably went though both sides timelines to end them, much like the Timelords tried to end the Daleks via the 4th Doctor. Their entire existance might be timelocked for the post-war Doctor. The Doctor tried everything to stop it, eventually deciding he had to use the Moment to end both species. But then changed his mind and froze Gallifrey. A very large number of Daleks were destroyed, but it seems they actually survived anyway. The Timelords were either pushed all the way back to Gallifrey (no colonies, no stations, no others on the outside save the Master) or other survivors were wiped out by the remaining Daleks outside the Doctor's knowledge.

It is possible that the Doctor is wrong about the War being Timelocked, and he just thinks he can't go back. It is also possible that Timelords behave is such ways as to prevent paradoxes. If the Doctor is suppose to think the Timelords are gone, then none will cross his path, until they are suppose to cross his path. Timelords know when they can and cannot mess with time. Maybe the other just know they can't cross the Doctors' path in his 9th through 12th states. Not until he finds Gallifrey.

Clara managed to get the TARDIS to Gallifrey in the Doctor's past when the safeties were off. It is not suppose to be there, and Clara especially forbids the Doctor from ever looking to see where they were. How they got there was dangerous. Much like the going to the end of the Universe. Even beyond where he went in Utopia. The safety was off. The only reason he wven got to the end of the Universe in Utopia was because the TARDIS was trying to shake off a fixed moment in time....Jack Harkness. It ran as far as it could go. Clara made it go farther with the safety off and a standed human there. (I wonder if that place will be reconned into being the end of the Nethersphere's pocket universe and that was actually Danny, but talked to by the Doctor first to not let Clara know until after he got home. It would explain why his suit was one from the Mars base the Doctor had left over)

Or maybe the Doctor or Master decide to blow up Gallifrey sometime later on, and that is why there are no Time Lords.

 

[Robert D. Robot]

......The time lock seems to not be a device or weapon, but just that there was some much time travel and fixed point involved that a time traveler cannot get in or out because the fabric of time is so messed up and or dense that one can't get thought it........

I like your concept here VERY much, Ithekro.

 

[Ithekro]

I have to correct some spelling but yes, basically.

......The time lock seems to not be a device or weapon, but just that there was so much time travel and fixed points involved that a time traveler cannot get in or out because the fabric of time is so messed up and or dense that one can't get through it........

 

[Mr Light]

You make good points Ithekro...

<<The Doctor has rules about time travel, and they are strict, even for him, when it comes to Gallifrey. As we have seen, the Daleks survived. They have an empire at various times. It is clear that it could not have only been the Victory of the Daleks version that recreated their empire, as the Asylem housed Daleks that had fought the Doctor in his long past (1st to 7th Doctor eras).>>

I have to point out that these examples are from the Moffat Era and he clearly isn't interested in following rules or internal consistency. I'm looking at the RTD Era where rules were established and followed. The Time War was his story, after all. I loved the movie but I continue to have a problem with it undoing the end of the Time War like that.

While "Aslyum of the Daleks" is a cool story, it really didn't make sense. If the Daleks were wiped out in the Time War, how did the Doctor visit an existing Skaro and where were all those old Daleks from? Was that pre-Time War Skaro?

If the present-day Doctor can visit pre-Time War Skaro, why doesn't a present-day Dalek go back to that time and warn them about the Time War?

That's what I liked about RTD. He established consistent rules to limit time travel so that it followed a logical progression, while Moffat just wants to pull as many wibbley wobbley tricks as possible with it, but it makes everything fall apart if you pick at it.

If you're going to tell a story about a vast society of people who travel backwards and forwards in time, but you don't set limits on that, the internal logic of it would just result in utter chaos destroying any drama or tension or stakes.

 

[Ithekro]

The thing is Skaro was destroyed in the 7th Doctor's era, and yet came back just before the 8th Doctor came about, and then was destroyed again in the Time War, but then, there it is.

The Doctor has wiped out the Dalaks so many times. From the 1st Doctor onwards. he's caused or taken part in more than one Dalek civil war.

The Doctor has gone back in time to change events to his or more likey, his companions liking. Going at least as far back as the 4th Doctor. The limits of time travel are when doing so breaks the universe. Timelords are suppose to be able to feel when that will happen and no cross that line. However there are others that are not Timelords that can force a Timelord to cross that line. At that point it is up to the Timelord to at least try to miminize the damage an make a stable universe (or at least mostly stable).

The Time War nearly destroyed the Universe because the Timelords and Daleks got worse and worse. That was why the Doctor tried to end it. Why he commited an act so bad that he not only felt guilt about it for 400 years, but also conditioned himself so that he cannot go back again. The man that keeps running.

After 400 years, he has learned a lot, and (thanks to the Master) has a companion that will challenge him over using the Moment at a critical time. The Doctor is kind. The Doctor would not let Gallifrey burn. Thus the Doctor, given another option that he didn't consider 400 years ago, goes back and decides not the use the Moment (for now) and instead puts Gallifrey into a 3D picture/pocket universe. Thus Gallifrey was destroyed for 400 years for the Doctor, and then not destroyed. Much like Earth was destroyed for decades due to Suhtak the Destroyer, and then Earth was fine in 1980. The Doctor changed time. It is what he does. He just tends to know when he can and cannot do it. The Time War made him so guilty that he felt he could do nothing but make it worse...thus he didn't try after using the Moment, until the option was presented to him again (by the Moment and Clara).

The 9th and 10th Doctor are too close to the end of the war to really think. They go emotional easily over it. The 11th is many centuries removed from it, yet it does effect him still.

Yet when we think about it, Dalek Cahn managed to get into the Time War, and managed to get Davros out of the first year of that war. The Emperor of the Daleks survived the End of the War. A lone Dalek survived the war not knowing it ended. And Rassilon managed to use the Master to take Gallifrey out of the War all they way to Earth before being stopped by the Doctor. The time lock is not as foolproof as the Doctor thinks it is. And that is all RTD era stuff.

With Moffat era stuff, a Dalek ship managed to survive the destruction of Davros's fleet and start up a new generation of Daleks...yet they manage to have a empire, find their Asylum, and at least locate the remains of Skaro. The Thanes are likely gone this time around...unless those adventures with the Doctor were from even later in the timeline. Imagine for a moment. If the first time the Doctor encounters the Daleks (for us back in 1963) was their last survivors following the Time War and other incidents. Or the aftermath of the 2nd Doctor's civil war against the remaining Dalek Emperor post-Time War. Not everything is linear in Doctor Who.

As for the Daleks and Timelords going into the past to warn people about the war, who says they didn't. It just made it worse and worse. Why else would half the universe be burning of the two mighty temporal civilizations were not constantly going back in time to erase each other from existance? Millions to billions, to trillions of beings, being wiped out and brought back over and over again ever minute of every day and then repeated that day over and over again. All to defeat either the Daleks or the Timelords. This is why I think the Doctor restarted his age from when he came back as the War Doctor on Karn. He is over 2000 years old since then. Plus his other lifetime, before he was forced to take part in the War. That means the War Doctor was fighting for at least 800 years in some way. Trying to end the war. Yet it still took him another 400 years to figure out a "better" way.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

Mr Light writes,

That's what I liked about RTD. He established consistent rules to limit time travel so that it followed a logical progression, while Moffat just wants to pull as many wibbley wobbley tricks as possible with it, but it makes everything fall apart if you pick at it.

If you're going to tell a story about a vast society of people who travel backwards and forwards in time, but you don't set limits on that, the internal logic of it would just result in utter chaos destroying any drama or tension or stakes.

Chuck Wendig writes, about world building,

18. THE RULES

Worldbuilding likes to offer “rules” — in particular, rules about the way This Certain Thing works, which might be magic, or some alien technology, or political ascension, or what happens when you fuck a minotaur while holding a pelican under the boughs of the whispering wank-wank tree. Rules can be critical in helping readers understand the nature of the world and, more importantly, how the stakes of the story in this world shake out. (More on a story’s stakes here.) But (you know a ‘but’ had to be coming, right?), rules can also be woefully boring. They can be expository, obvious, and they can rob the story of mystery. You’re not writing a technical manual for HVAC repair. And yet, you also don’t want a world where everything is so unpredictable that it feels convenient and lazy. Here’s how to handle it: you should know the rules and conform to them. But you don’t need to spell them out to the audience. The audience is smart! The audience wants to work. Let them figure it out for themselves, like a puzzle.

He, also, writes

10. The Nature of "Write What You Know"

Write What You Know is one of those pieces of writing advice that inspires glorious epiphany and pants-pooping rage in equal measure. Genre fiction tends to be where folks hit their heads against it in frustration: “Well, how can I write about murder scenes, alien apocalypses, or humping a sexy elf? I’VE ONLY DONE TWO OUT OF THE THREE. And the third, I was really drunk on monkey schnapps.” With worldbuilding, the question becomes: how can this advice hold up? The easy answer is: it doesn’t. It can come into the writing of characters and situations, but worldbuilding, not so much. The more complicated answer is: you can still borrow from things you understand and translate them accordingly. Maybe you know local school politics or neighborhood hierarchy, and you know how both operate viciously, each an engine that runs on gossip and lies — psst, you can use that. Just give it a fantasy or space opera context, and boom. Alternately, you can borrow from culture, politics and history. Read some non-fiction about other places and different people. Again: translate. Use write what you know as a springboard to know more things, then gaze upon said things through the lens of the fantastic.

http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2013/09/17/25-things-you-should-know-about-worldbuilding/

I would like to comment on this.

In the '70s, Barry Letts was the showrunner for Doctor Who, when the Third Doctor was working as a scientific advisor for UNIT. His portrayal of military characters, like the Brigadier, was considered true to life by actual military professionals. How did he achieve this? Letts had experience with the military - he served as a sub-lieutenant in the RN during World War II.

In the '10s, Moffat was the showrunner for Doctor Who, when the Twelfth Doctor was traveling time and space with Clara Oswald. Her ex-military boyfriend was antagonistic with the Doctor because he reminded him of aristocratic officers. There were issues with the depiction of Danny as a soldier.
* First, he served in the military for five years. According to the official British Army website, soldiers stay at the private rank for five years. They don't become the next rank until they have been in the service for six to eight years, and the rank of sergeant requires at minimum twelve years of service. What is a sergeant in the British Army? A sergeant is a non-commissioned officer who commands other troops into battle and advises junior officers.

http://www.army.mod.uk/structure/32321.aspx

* Second, if Danny served in the ISAF in Afghan, he would be fighting insurgents and doing humanitarian work. I know of only one alleged massacre of citizens by the ISAF, which occurred in 2009. Five years later, there is stilll much unknown about this event. (The Narang Night Raid -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narang_night_raid) So, Danny killing a child would not have happen.

Wendig writes that if you don't know something, learn it. Moffat never served in the military and it is clear that he and his writers did no research, and choose to create a dubious military character to emphasize the Doctor's anti-military stance. What I have learned from watching the Classic Doctor Who is that the Doctor is not anti-military - he is against discipline that stifles flexibility and innovation and freewheeling, and holds to a dualistic worldview. The Doctor, on many occasions, attempted to be a mediator between two parties, and would resort to other means when mediation failed.

 

[The Wormhole]

The thing is Skaro was destroyed in the 7th Doctor's era, and yet came back just before the 8th Doctor came about, and then was destroyed again in the Time War, but then, there it is.

Exactly, Skaro was already undecided about being destroyed or not before Asylum came along. And besides, if the Daleks themselves can survive extinction a dozen times, why can't Skaro survive a destruction or two?

What I have learned from watching the Classic Doctor Who is that the Doctor is not anti-military - he is against discipline that stifles flexibility and innovation and freewheeling, and holds to a dualistic worldview.

The Doctor has never been a great fan of the military in general. However, prior to the Capaldi incarnation, he's never really had a problem with individual soldiers. Aside from his long-term friendship with the Brigadier, the Doctor has been seen to be on friendly terms with Mike Yates, Sgt. Benton and in the modern era, Private Ross. I was hoping with UNIT back we could get some insight with why the Capaldi Doctor has a problem with soldiers when the others didn't, but instead he just blatantly disrespects the UNIT military personnel he meets with though he does show great reverence to the Brigadier.

 

[doubleohfive]

Overall, meh.

Things I liked:

Fudging with the opening credits.
The minute Clara said she was the Doctor I hoped they would do exactly what they did, swapping Coleman and Capaldi's names and showing her eyes. I howled with delight that they actually did it. Well done. No, the whole point of it didn't really matter to the plot (very little in this episode did, really) but it was a hoot nonetheless and worth it for the gag.

Fudging with the end credits.
Same thing here. Entirely unexpected and a fun way to tease the Christmas special.

Danny's speech before leading the Cybermen away.
I think someone upthread was right suggesting that the story was planned well in advance to coincide with Remembrance Day and Veteran's Day and Danny's speech at the end was a rousing and wonderful way to honor all the fallen soldiers who have given their lives for our freedom and our ability to sit here on these message boards and rant and rave and praise these shows we love. It was a fine idea for an arc, if executed poorly, but the resolution makes it worthwhile for me. Well done, Moffat and crew.

The Doctor skydiving into the TARDIS.
I don't have a problem with the TARDIS somehow surviving an exploding airliner. I'm still fuzzy on how the Doctor didn't get incinerated along with everyone else on that jet, but it was pretty neat seeing him skydive toward the blue box to save his skin a la Roger Moore in "Moonraker." Cool visual, if slightly unearned.

Capaldi's performance.
As noted, Twelve doesn't do anything in this episode except run around and look confused. Not a fan of that kind of "action" for the series lead. But Capaldi still found a way to make it interesting and to keep me engaged.

Michelle Gomez' performance.
I kind of hate that she's the Master because I feel like the Master had a perfectly fine resolution in "The End of Time." I hate even more that almost no explanation is given to how she came back. which I feel like would be one of the most obvious things to resolve after last week's cliffhanger. All the more so since Moffat has her vaporized in the end. Why the hell should I care then that she's back?

The Brigadier coming back, saving Kate.
I know some people find this distasteful but I was pleased that Kate didn't die and even more touched that if anyone else was going to be able to overcome the Cyber programming it would be the Brigadier. I do think it's rather tasteless and insulting to the character that they were so ambiguous about what happened to Cyber-Brigadier. Upon first viewing, I assumed he just rocketed into the sky to blow up along with the rest of the Cyber-dead, but I could see Moffat leaving that door open and I think it cheapens the Brigadier entirely to do so. Here, it was a lovely tribute and a heartwarming realization that he saved Kate's life. Anything more would be too much.

Things I didn't like:

Lazy writing and the utter and complete lack of logic.
Starting at the end: How on God's green earth did Danny send that Afghani kid back if their consciousness had been uploaded to the Time Lord cloud? Would the boys body not have been rotting away in a grave somewhere in Afghanistan? How did the kid get his same body back? How is it that the body had not decomposed to mush and dust? And how did it get transposed to whatever after-afterlife Danny went to?

What are the implications for Missy's downloadable dead? Did this apply to everyone who has ever died in the history od the world? Are they all Cybermen in waiting now? Or did those who were uploaded all fly away in to the sky to self-destruct? Did the Brigadier also self-destruct, or is he now condemned to an afterlife trapped in a Cyberman body? Most importantly, does this now mean that everyone who has ever died in the history of the Earth is actually sitting around somewhere waiting to be resurrected? Filed away into some Gallifreyan iCloud device? Moffat seems to have no problem posing these big, far-reaching questions but shows no effort or interest in resolving or answering these implications.

More importantly, what does this mean for anyone who dies going forward in the Doctor Who universe? It effectively negates anyone being killed because we know now it's entirely possible (if however difficult) to resurrect someone, even someone who has been long dead (vis a vis the Afghani boy.)

How come Captain Jack Harkness never once mentioned this "afterlife" all the times he died?

Still no resolution for why Clara was in such a fit at the beginning of "Dark Water" when she rang Danny. Like others, I expected her to be showing a baby bump when she stood up to hug the Doctor goodbye at the end. Sloppy, lazy writing.

Moffat confirmed in the iTunes extra behind the scenes supplemental video for "Death In Heaven" that we shouldn't be too invested in the Master being gone for good given how he used to get killed at the end of every serial he appeared in only to return with some blase explanation of "I escaped!", so I doubt any of us are going to be surprised when she returns. It's Spike in the Buffy finale all over again. Big flipping deal.

In all, basically a groan-fest. More of Moffat's slow-burn for 40 minutes and then whatever tired twist he thows out in the end. Here's hoping the Christmas special is good (well, as good as the frothy Christmas specials can be) and that there's more of a return to form in Series 9.

Dear Steven Moffat,

Don't blink, don't breathe, listen, don't think, don't cremate me. And last but not least, don't write anymore shitty episodes.

 

[Mr Light]

Re: Skaro

I just assumed that the FOX/US Movie took place prior to Skaro being destroyed in "Rememberance" in terms of the Daleks' timeline, not the Doctor's personal timeline. And then it was destroyed in the Time War and should never have been accessible again. Which is why I was shocked to see it in "Asylum".

But of the course the massive thing about all of this... is that the frickin' universe rebooted in "The Big Bang". What does that mean? What's different? What's the same? Who knows. The Time War still happened... but it was after that that the ending was retconned...

<<More importantly, what does this mean for anyone who dies going forward in the Doctor Who universe? I effectively negates anyone being killed because we know now it's entirely possible (if however difficult) to resurrect someone, even someone who has been long dead (vis a vis the Afghani boy.)

How come Captain Jack Harkness never once mentioned this "afterlife" all the times he died? >>

I'm assuming that Missy was only grabbing a few specific people and not anyone that ever died, so Jack was never affected.

Of course, I also thought it was quite clear that the 3W company was operating in the future and apparently it was in the present day all along...

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Second, if Danny served in the ISAF in Afghan, he would be fighting insurgents and doing humanitarian work. I know of only one alleged massacre of citizens by the ISAF, which occurred in 2009. Five years later, there is stilll much unknown about this event. (The Narang Night Raid -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narang_night_raid) So, Danny killing a child would not have happen.

I don't get this, Danny didn't intentionally "massacre" a child, he thought he was returning fire.

 

[diankra]

If the present-day Doctor can visit pre-Time War Skaro, why doesn't a present-day Dalek go back to that time and warn them about the Time War?

This was talked over even before 2005/Time War, and two answers came up:
1) Despite all their talk of purity, Daleks do evolve, or at least repaint their casings. The future Daleks might be dismissed as unclean heretics by the earlier Daleks they try to warn, and be ignored. [Would George Washington take advice from Colin Powell or Ike Eisenhower? Well maybe, but only because he was a thoughtful man, not any time-tangled version of the chain of command).
On a more bureaucratic measure, Dalek A notes that Dalek B only outranks him due to orders (promotions/seniority/top score of the kilo-rel in Human killing?) signed in the future which do no yet apply, so. It's a insubordinate junior Dalek getting above itself... EXTERMINATE!!!

On the other hand, if they time travel a lot, they may have rules in place to keep the command structure together whatever happens. So...
2) They do this a lot. Hence the Daleks of Day of the Daleks are 'invading Earth again' after being told by future Daleks about the failure of the 2157ish Dalek Invasion of Earth, and deciding to try again 180 years earlier with a nuclear war as the lead-in rather than that fiddly germ warfare. But maybe the outcome of that made them wonder if it was a strategy that would actually work in practice (particularly as a standard conquest technique elsewhere), or whether it would just collapse into self-wiping casuality loops etc.

3) Which leads to alternate three: they tried. That's what actually caused it. Just like in Day of the Daleks. And just as sending the Doctor to Skaro in Genesis was, apparaently, the declaration of war so far as the Daleks were concerned, well. ("Yes, we did ask the Doctor to go back and prevent you even existing. But he didn't do it, so I think you're being a bit over-sensitive about it...")

My feeling on the Time War was that it had all been tried:
The Time Lords altered history. The Daleks altered it back.
The Daleks altered Time Lord history, the Time Lords reverted it. Loop ad infinitum.
In the meantime a lot of species whose history was affected by either of them (getting wiped out or enslaved by Daleks, getting subtly stopped from creating Time travel by the Time Lords. Or more brutally stopped by the Daleks) got caught in the conversation, with their histories getting wiped, recreated and coming out a bit different, though not necessarily till the sixth time round the loop.

So by the end, it was a war of attrition: like 1914 to 1918, or Thals/Kaleds, no one could win anymore (any thing short of a superweapon has been tried). And once it did end the universe was left with a lot of significant (and sometimes violent and shouty) species who the Time Lords or Daleks had previously suppressed/enslaved/exterminated suddenly taking major roles in universal politics.

 

[Australis]

Just realised I've not voted. And won't. It was great and it was terrible. Doesn't deserve a great or terrible. And that doesn't mean it averages out to an average either. Dammit.

 

[Ithekro]

I'm not sure how ridged the British enlisted promotion structure is, but I know that in the American structure, one can be promoted earlier due to merit or wartime need. Mr. Pink may have been quite skilled and got to a school after basic training for technical skills or something and gotten a promotion out of that. I know my father was the equivalent US Navy rank of 2nd class petty officer within 3 years of entering the Navy, and had been a 3rd class petty officer at least year before that. Though that was in Vietnam. The promotions were due to some rates having more mobility that other, due to technical skills and combat loses (he was an engineer of sorts, though they had him on the Rivers of Vietnam for a year as well). Had he stayed in he probably would have made 1st class within six years in the Navy. Other rates have almost no upward mobility and you can say a 2nd class petty officer for 12 years without any disiplinary, nor promotions.

 

[Slugboy]

How on God's green earth did Danny send that Afghani kid back if their consciousness had been uploaded to the Time Lord cloud? Would the boys body not have been rotting away in a grave somewhere in Afghanistan? How did the kid get his same body back? How is it that the body had not decomposed to mush and dust? And how did it get transposed to whatever after-afterlife Danny went to?

First, a minor nitpick with your comment: an Afghan is a person, while an Afghani is the unit of currency used in Afghanistan.

My understanding is that it wasn't the boy's original body, but rather a copy. When Seb (the "AI interface" character---by the way, I think Christopher Addison did a great job playing him) explained to Danny why he always felt cold, he mentioned that Danny was "in your new body in your new world" while he was still connected to his old body "in the old world." So I interpreted this to mean that Danny's Nethersphere body was a copy of his old one, and presumably all the other dead people had body copies in the Nethersphere.

The fact that Missy used the bracelet to teleport between "worlds" (the real world and the Nethersphere) gives me the impression that there was also a physical component to the Nethersphere as well (presumably using some dimensional engineering to shove the body copies into the relatively small device). If the Nethersphere were completely virtual, Missy would not need to teleport to it (she could just project her consciousness into it)

Other than that, however, I agree with most of your "con" points.

 

[doubleohfive]

How on God's green earth did Danny send that Afghani kid back if their consciousness had been uploaded to the Time Lord cloud? Would the boys body not have been rotting away in a grave somewhere in Afghanistan? How did the kid get his same body back? How is it that the body had not decomposed to mush and dust? And how did it get transposed to whatever after-afterlife Danny went to?

First, a minor nitpick with your comment: an Afghan is a person, while an Afghani is the unit of currency used in Afghanistan.

Thank you for that clarification. I value the proper usage of attribution and nomenclature and wasnt aware of this. I will make sure to use it appropriately in the future.

My understanding is that it wasn't the boy's original body, but rather a copy. When Seb (the "AI interface" character---by the way, I think Christopher Addison did a great job playing him) explained to Danny why he always felt cold, he mentioned that Danny was "in your new body in your new world" while he was still connected to his old body "in the old world." So I interpreted this to mean that Danny's Nethersphere body was a copy of his old one, and presumably all the other dead people had body copies in the Nethersphere.

The fact that Missy used the bracelet to teleport between "worlds" (the real world and the Nethersphere) gives me the impression that there was also a physical component to the Nethersphere as well (presumably using some dimensional engineering to shove the body copies into the relatively small device). If the Nethersphere were completely virtual, Missy would not need to teleport to it (she could just project her consciousness into it)

Other than that, however, I agree with most of your "con" points.

See, that makes a lot of sense. The Time Lord iCloud is bigger on the inside and can transpose bodies and consciousnesses. It does still beg the question that now that the Doctor and Clara know it's possible to bring people back from the dead, why aren't they out there trying to find more bracelets? Or engineer their own?

(I know why, obviously)

But it never comes up, nobody thinks to suggest it or acknowledge it, nor discuss that, uh, this was the whole reason they set off on this two part adventure to begin with. Lazy.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

My knowledge of the British Army ranks is from their own website. I posted the direct quote about what a sergeant is a while back. This is what it says.

Sergeant
Sergeant is a senior role of responsibility, promotion to which typically takes place after 12 years depending on ability. Sergeants typically are second in command of a troop or platoon of up to 35 soldiers, with the important responsibility for advising and assisting junior officers.

I was wrong about British soldiers staying private for five years. From the same site,

Promotion to Lance Corporal may follow after Phase 2 Training or after about 3 years as a private. Lance Corporals are required to supervise a small team of up to four soldiers called a section. They also have opportunities to specialise and undertake specialist military training.

http://www.army.mod.uk/structure/32321.aspx

Military personnel normally don't intend to shoot civilians. They are trained specifically not to do this. However, there are situations where it does happen. The only incident I can find where the ISAF might have killed children was a night raid on an Afghan village. I said might, because it's not clear five years later, who did the shooting and the killing that night.

It is unusual for an individual to clear a house by themselves. The procedure is that a squad would clear the house. Sgt Danny Pink would be the leadman of a squad - his squad, following his orders, would breach the house and look for insurgents.

From the dialogue from "The Caretaker", it is established that Sgt. Pink served in the UK, before being transferred to ISAF in Afghanistan, and he served five years. Pink would have been a private or lance corporal, if he showed the ability of being more than a private and/or completed Phase 2 Training. This phase trains the soldier a specialized skill.

Danny Pink would complete his basic education and take the tests required of all students, which determined the career path they would take, at age 16. At age 17, he would enlist in the military. For sake of simplicity, he would have taken a six-month training course, which combined Phase 1 (Boot Camp) and Phase 2 (Speciality Training). Then he would be assigned to his first posting, which appeared to be in the United Kingdom.

http://www.army.mod.uk/training_education/24432.aspx

In Britain, there is a program called Troops to Teachers. It is open to all military personnel. A person can, within two years of leaving the service or before two years after leaving the service, apply for this program. It's not known if Danny applied for the program when he was in Afghanistan, or after he returned to the United Kingdom. If he applied for it after completing his service, he would have left the service in the early 2010s.

http://www.education.gov.uk/get-into-teaching/troops-to-teachers

http://troopstoteachers.ctp.org.uk

The British system of hiring and training teachers is far different from the American system.

 

[Ithekro]

Things like ranks in the enlisted ranks are not always set by years, but by need, ability, and available billets. What is Danny Pink's rating? Trooper, Gunner, Signalmen, Kingman? Something much more technical? He mentioned putting in wells and the like. Was there a lot of upward mobility as the Army lost non-commissioned officers? Did they lose them to fighting in the Middle East, or to Daleks or anything else that has hit the planet in the last decade. Somehow Pink got promoted.

I do notice that the British have less enlisted ranks than the Americans. There is no NATO OR-5 step in the British ranks.

 

[Mr Light]

Re: Time War Time Travel

Yeah, they did say in the series that during the war each side would try to jump forward to undo victories or wipe the other one out in the crib, etc. That's why the Time War was destroying all of reality; because it was time travel without rules. Which is kinda what Moffat decided to freely do anyway.

My point is, a character *after* the Time War ended should not be able to travel back in time to any point where there's a Dalek or a Time Lord. Because if they can, then the Time War isn't "locked". Because the Time War, being an insane no-rules time travel conflict, really comprises not 1914-1918 but the entirety of the two species' existence.

The ennui of the Doctor being the last of his kind and never seeing his people again, same for the Dalek in "Dalek", makes no sense if he just travel back in time to hang out with a pre-war Time Lord.

This is why I hate time travel in fiction