Rate 8x12: Death In Heaven

[Tom]

Insult or no, the Cyber-brig was just kind of tacky and heavy-handed. Not only that it was just kind of out of left field and didn't really fit the episode.

I think the picture on the plane of the Brig was to help the newer viewers by saying this guy from the old series is now a Cybermen. They could have just done it with dialog but Moffat needed to make a visual connection to establish that this was guy in the Cyberman armor who saved Kate, that was pretty tacky.

 

[Mr Awe]

I wonder if they had any idea of the arc's endgame when they started the whole Missy thing of if they wrote themselves into a box and had to cobble together something to resolve it...

Nah, it sure seems like he made it up as he went along. I also doubt whether he knew who "the girl in the shop" was when he first wrote that. There seemed to be no apparent importance for choosing Clara. None of the people saved earlier in the season were actually used in the finale. And, yeah, using the more primitive clockwork robots seems pointless. And, their pursuit of the promised land was lost along the way.

Mr Awe

 

[Mr Awe]

I have been finding it fascinating. It's almost like Moffat has been trying to see just how far he can push the envelope of Doctor Who to the breaking point. The Doctor and Clara (and Danny) seem to be in this relationship that is really toxic for each other and yet they are fully committed to each other above all else. Even lies and betrayals can't break it.

Hint, writing soapy elements isn't the mark of brilliance.

I've been reevaluating it and as conflicted as I was watching it this season I think Moffat actually made a bold move with the approach this series. In previous years when the Doctor asks if he is a good man the program has always replied "Yes" but this time not so much. Even Missy's plan wasn't to destroy the Doctor as it was to corrupt him. And there's been a distinct lack of timey-wimey stuff this time around.

"In previous year"?! I don't think the Doctor really ever asked that question before. But, it was always clear that yes he is a good man. The only time he might not have been was back in Hartnell's day where he was more a self-interested man.

Missy's "plan" of giving him the bracelet was just stupid. And, d'oh, he used the army against her. Who could've foreseen that one, oh wait, everyone.

Mr Awe

 

[ihno]

As with others, I have mixed feelings about this episode.

The Cyb-Brig was a giant "fuck you" from Moffatt to Nicholas Courtney. He couldn't be bothered with bringing the actor back while he was alive, so that's how he deals with it?

To be fair: Davis was the producer when Courtney was still alive and at least Courtney appeared in the Sarah Jane Adventures.

 

[Captaindemotion]

I'd have preferred it if the Doctor had just gotten into the Tardis with Missy and gone off in the end to look for Gallifrey.

I actually thought they might do something like that. Like how the Master accompanied the Richard E. Grant 'Shalka' Doctor.

 

[TommyR01D]

I wonder if they had any idea of the arc's endgame when they started the whole Missy thing of if they wrote themselves into a box and had to cobble together something to resolve it...

Nah, it sure seems like he made it up as he went along. I also doubt whether he knew who "the girl in the shop" was when he first wrote that. There seemed to be no apparent importance for choosing Clara. None of the people saved earlier in the season were actually used in the finale. And, yeah, using the more primitive clockwork robots seems pointless. And, their pursuit of the promised land was lost along the way.

Mr Awe

Given that more than two years have passed since Clara's first appearance in Asylum of the Daleks, it's safe to assume that Moffat may have had to change his plan a few times after already starting. Actually, it would explain a lot about the Moffat era. I haven't rewatched much of Season 5+ much, but where I do I'm struck retroactively by how different the start of an arc can be to the end of it.

Probably the reason that Series 6, 7 and 8 have received such criticism compared to Series 5 is that the latter was fairly-self contained, on time, and stuck to the RTD-era formula for the most part. It had a ten-story plan whereby the mystery built up for 11 episodes and was resolved in the finale. Series 6 tried to build on this, but seemed to fall off a cliff midway through with all the stuff about Amy's baby and lead to an ending (The Wedding of River Song) that was just a mess.

For Series 7, Moffat clearly got into a pickle with Karen & Arthur's resignation, then Matt's and of course the Golden Anniversary. The divorce arc of episodes 1-5 strongly feels like a stopgap measure to have something which could hold together what would otherwise be an odd string of unconnected stories jammed between two big arcs. 6-13 then feel like a full Season compressed into eight episodes with a rush to have some kind of grand finale that can be wrapped up before the 50th so that The Day of the Doctor could be kept separate from rest of it and not get bogged down by any Trenzalore or Great Intelligence stuff (there are a few lines about Clara but they could be cut and it would make no difference). The Time of the Doctor feels like a mid-season 6 episode two years too late, frantically tying up loose ends dating back to 2010 with single sentence hand waves.

Season 8 was better, but this episode definitely felt like some of it was rewritten at the last minute and not thought through.

 

[Cyke101]

Missy's plan - taking over the world, controlling the dead - was perfectly in line with what the character did in End of Time. I don't think she's even slightly "bananas" ... I think she was playing up to how people thought of her when she was The Master, playing with their expectations, tricking them into doing whatever she wanted.

I've no problem with the Master's plan (as far-fetched as it is anyway), but the one thing I couldn't stomach was the Doctor's guess that the Master had traveled throughout time to create the various afterlife myths of Earth's history. If the Doctor's right, that means the Master did a LOT of unnecessary work, and there are hundreds of religions out there anyway (even if we were to assume something like branches from a smaller number of stories, that's still a lot of time and effort to put in).

Even worse is when you consider how many times the Doctor's been killed over the years, and through much easier, simpler effort than this latest scheme.

 

[Ithekro]

Given Moffat's standard for Timey-Whimy solutions to problems, and how he used the Master before in comedy (1999), I am fully expecting that the Master's plan involves a paradox of freeing himself from Gallifrey on the Last Day of the Time War, by later picking Clara Owsald to be the Doctor's companion so that she would be able to change the Doctor's mind about the Moment, and thus not burning Gallifrey, thus giving the Master time to survive, and escape. The course of events also leads to the Doctor's TARDIS making the cracks in the universe which allows the trapped Master to escape (probably) and giving the Doctor a reason to stand on Tranzalor, which causes Clara to change events to save the Doctor thoughout his timeline and later force the Timelords to change history and give the Doctor a new set of regenerations.

Then the Master would go the extra steps to be sure that things continued on so she could properly thank the Doctor and give him an Army (or else) and go forth to save the Universe from everything. The Master has been seen to be perfectly capable of such extremely complex and successful plans using time and people to get things done. The problem is that the Master tends to overlook one thing that is critical, and that one thing backfires to ruin the plan (or part of the plan that allows the Doctor to "win").

So it can be somewhat retroactively stated that all the events from the 5th series onwards have be at least pushed forward due to the actions of the Master. Which would somewhat make sense since the Master was last seen just before the Doctor regenerated into the 11th Doctor...right before he encountered his first crack in the Universe in Amilia Pond's house.

It is very convoluted, and very retroactive. But that does seem to be Moffat's style. Extra amounts of time travel nonsense to where things happen before and after we see them happen and things that happen in the last episode effect things that happen in the first episode. It is just that we don't see them in the proper order. Much like the life and love of the Doctor and River Song.

 

[The Wormhole]

As with others, I have mixed feelings about this episode.

The Cyb-Brig was a giant "fuck you" from Moffatt to Nicholas Courtney. He couldn't be bothered with bringing the actor back while he was alive, so that's how he deals with it?

To be fair: Davis was the producer when Courtney was still alive and at least Courtney appeared in the Sarah Jane Adventures.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say, if anyone was going to get the Brigadier onto modern Who it would have been RTD. When Moffat took over in season 5, presumably he had most of that season planned out and that didn't mean bringing the Brigadier in, there were no UNIT stories that year anyway. And even if Moffat were inclined to have the Brigadier involved, it might not have been doable due to Nicholas Courtney's health. After all, it was just the previous year he had to decline another SJA appearance (in The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith) due to his health. And sadly, while season 6 was still in production this was no longer an option.

So whatever problems anyone might have about Cyber Brigadier, it's not right to blame Moffat for the Brigadier's absence in modern Who. That ball was never in Moffat's court.

 

[Mr Awe]

So whatever problems anyone might have about Cyber Brigadier, it's not right to blame Moffat for the Brigadier's absence in modern Who. That ball was never in Moffat's court.

I specifically said that it wasn't Moffat's fault. However, I did say that he was letting history repeat itself with William Russell. He waits and waits and then suddenly it'll be too late.

Mr Awe

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Both comments perfectly sum up a large percentage of Moffat scripts since he took over. In particular, both Day of the Doctor and Time of the Doctor were basically just "This happened AND THEN this happens AND THEN this happens"

Actually, no. No matter what one may think about these two shows, they were carefully built with actions and consequences and plot structures and all that good stuff.

 

[The Wormhole]

So whatever problems anyone might have about Cyber Brigadier, it's not right to blame Moffat for the Brigadier's absence in modern Who. That ball was never in Moffat's court.

I specifically said that it wasn't Moffat's fault. However, I did say that he was letting history repeat itself with William Russell. He waits and waits and then suddenly it'll be too late.

Mr Awe

As much as I'd love William Russell to return, I'm not sure if it's apt comparison. One, we don't know if he's even interested in returning to the show. I'm not trying to suggest he's against it, his continued involvement with the audio dramas shows he's still dedicated to the franchise even fifty years after his day on the show. But at his age, despite being in pretty good health, he may not be up taking a trip to Cardiff for even a day's worth filming. And two, how do you even fit him in the show now? Well, yes, there were two missed opportunities, a cameo in Day of the Doctor being one of the best times to do it, though he could have also have been the voice announcing Danny's accident in Dark Water. But assuming Clara is done with the Doctor, we're not likely having any returns to Coal Hill anytime soon.

 

[Ithekro]

One problem with bringing back Ian would be the last reference to him directly by a character in the Doctor Who universe. That character being Sarah Jane Smith. She mentions a pair of teacher (who are certainly Ian and Barbara) that haven't aged since the 60s. They can do a lot of things, but it would be tricky to get William Russell to look like he did in 1965. If Moffat sticks with RTD's canon from SJA, than he is sort of stuck when it comes to Ian. (also were they not suppose to be college professors, rather than head master of Coal Hill?)

But Moffat may have a plan. (I may be a terrible plan, and most certainly won't work).

Also didn't the 11th Doctor say he's run around with Santa Claus a few times? I think in his first Christmas special in 2010 it was mentioned. Like palling around with Santa, Frank Sinatra, and Einstein. Santa Claus being know to the Doctor as "Jeff".

 

[WillsBabe]

Really? because I found it to be in very bad taste.

Having his painting on the plane was a nice homage.

Having his body crawl out of the grave as a Cyberman and then flying off at the end was not.

What happened to letting people rest in peace.

Me, too. Reminded me of Alien 3 when we found out that Ripley hadn't really beaten the alien. I don't want the Brig to have survived all those threats and then become a victim to them once he's dead. Somehow (although I really can separate fact from fiction) it makes it worse because Nicholas Courtney is no longer with us.

 

[Cutter John]

While odd, I don't have a problem with it. The Brig now has a powerful new body and can go back to doing what hes always done. Help protect the Earth. And if it does become painful, theres always the self destruct option.

 

[Captaindemotion]

One problem with bringing back Ian would be the last reference to him directly by a character in the Doctor Who universe. That character being Sarah Jane Smith. She mentions a pair of teacher (who are certainly Ian and Barbara) that haven't aged since the 60s. They can do a lot of things, but it would be tricky to get William Russell to look like he did in 1965. If Moffat sticks with RTD's canon from SJA, than he is sort of stuck when it comes to Ian. (also were they not suppose to be college professors, rather than head master of Coal Hill?)

But Moffat may have a plan. (I may be a terrible plan, and most certainly won't work).

That's the same episode that said Timelords have 503 regenerations so I don't see this dialogue being a bar to anything. Moreover, IIRC, the claim was made in a sort of 'rumour has it' context - nobody was saying that they'd seen Ian or Barbara.

Even if any episode featuring the character addressed this exchange, it could simply be undone with a few seconds of dialogue and Ian laughing and saying 'I wish it were true.'

Having said that, I don't really expect to see him in DW due to his age and the fact that there seems to be no apparent will (on his or the show's part) to feature him.

 

[Ithekro]

I thought the Brig being in this was fine given the context. Plus the Doctor's reaction in saluting, being the one thing the Brig wanted the Doctor to do before dying, was a nice thing.

Consider that, of all the people the Doctor has encountered in his thousands of years in the TARDIS, who is the one he ran into with nearly every incarnation (aside from Clara that is). It was the Brigader. From the Second Doctor onwards, he kept running into the Brig until the Time War. Even the First Doctor runs into him in the Five Doctors.

Also consider he's the one military man the Doctor actual wants to see when there is trouble (after the Doctor has had some influence on him as the Third Doctor that is).

And it was the Brig's death that caused the 11th Doctor to stop running and face his fate.

The Doctor doesn't like to be saluted, nor does he like to salute without jest. The exception seems to be the Stewarts of UNIT. He saluted Kate without thinking, and now he saluted the Brig in an honest salute of respect to his friend.

(Also there is the fanfiction version were all the Doctors are at the Brig's funeral and wake. It is touching that the Doctor...everyone of him, would go to the Brig's funeral. The Doctor would be all the pall-bearers. All planned out by the Seventh Doctor.)

 

[Candlelight]

The episode began really REALLY well, with the Cyber army, the rise of the dead, something actually happening this episode. But then Osgood is killed and the ep falls apart. The Mistress's escape was too easy, though it is part of the Master's way of always getting out. The Cybermen chasing and subsequently destroying the plane was great, as was the Doctor's atmospheric skydive. Everything set in the graveyard however was just blah. I really haven't cared for Danny at all this season, the resolution is pure Moffat and the Master escapes once again (anyone who thinks the Brig killed her is very mistaken).

The mandatory xmas tease is silly but the sight of Nick Frost makes up for it.

 

[Mr Awe]

So whatever problems anyone might have about Cyber Brigadier, it's not right to blame Moffat for the Brigadier's absence in modern Who. That ball was never in Moffat's court.

I specifically said that it wasn't Moffat's fault. However, I did say that he was letting history repeat itself with William Russell. He waits and waits and then suddenly it'll be too late.

Mr Awe

As much as I'd love William Russell to return, I'm not sure if it's apt comparison. One, we don't know if he's even interested in returning to the show. I'm not trying to suggest he's against it, his continued involvement with the audio dramas shows he's still dedicated to the franchise even fifty years after his day on the show. But at his age, despite being in pretty good health, he may not be up taking a trip to Cardiff for even a day's worth filming. And two, how do you even fit him in the show now? Well, yes, there were two missed opportunities, a cameo in Day of the Doctor being one of the best times to do it, though he could have also have been the voice announcing Danny's accident in Dark Water. But assuming Clara is done with the Doctor, we're not likely having any returns to Coal Hill anytime soon.

William Russell still seems very interested in the franchise. He did the 50th Con. Was in AAISAT. He does the audios. So, something could be arranged for sure.

I don't think it would be a huge role. And, there was a perfect missed opportunity in Day of the Doctor having the young Matt Smith meet the old Chesterton!

Perhaps you're right and they've already waited too long.

Mr Awe

 

[Marc]

I specifically said that it wasn't Moffat's fault. However, I did say that he was letting history repeat itself with William Russell. He waits and waits and then suddenly it'll be too late.

Mr Awe

As much as I'd love William Russell to return, I'm not sure if it's apt comparison. One, we don't know if he's even interested in returning to the show. I'm not trying to suggest he's against it, his continued involvement with the audio dramas shows he's still dedicated to the franchise even fifty years after his day on the show. But at his age, despite being in pretty good health, he may not be up taking a trip to Cardiff for even a day's worth filming. And two, how do you even fit him in the show now? Well, yes, there were two missed opportunities, a cameo in Day of the Doctor being one of the best times to do it, though he could have also have been the voice announcing Danny's accident in Dark Water. But assuming Clara is done with the Doctor, we're not likely having any returns to Coal Hill anytime soon.

William Russell still seems very interested in the franchise. He did the 50th Con. Was in AAISAT. He does the audios. So, something could be arranged for sure.

I don't think it would be a huge role. And, there was a perfect missed opportunity in Day of the Doctor having the young Matt Smith meet the old Chesterton!

Perhaps you're right and they've already waited too long.

Mr Awe

And sometimes squeezing a character in for the sake it can detract from the story, add clutter whatever.

Having the Doctor run into Chesterton again would have achieve what? It would have the sort of scene that would have wound up on the proverbial cutting room floor as they editted the episode for time.