Rassilon

[Psion]

Perhaps the Doctor wasn't being quite literal when he addressed Dalton's character. It's possible the President's actual name was something completely different, but by calling him "Rassilon", the Doctor was speaking derisively, comparing the man's policies to those of Rassilon.

RTD confirmed the character's name is Rassilon. But, to my knowledge he hasn't commented one way or the other if he's that Rassilon or someone else named Rassilon. We all just assume he is that Rassilon, since there's no reason why he can't be.

I dug around a bit after this, and found references to sections of "A Writer's Tale" that seem to indicate that Dalton's character was both named Rassilon and intended to be the "historical" character. Unfortunately, I can't find exact quotes including context, so it's difficult to determine if this is absolutely the case or if it contains high concentrations of reader interpretation. There may still be a bit of wiggle room, but until I know more, I'll give up this argument.

 

[Checkmate]

Occam's razor.

The Doctor called him Rassilon. How often do we see Time Lords with the same name? Why would they use the same name for two characters with similar mentalities and station? What would be the point of it being an honorary or ironic name if that was never mentioned once?

He was the Rassilon.

 

[Psion]

Parsimony's edge is sharp and likely to cut those who wield it carelessly.

 

[Cutter John]

Occam's razor.

The Doctor called him Rassilon. How often do we see Time Lords with the same name? Why would they use the same name for two characters with similar mentalities and station? What would be the point of it being an honorary or ironic name if that was never mentioned once?

He was the Rassilon.

Works for me. I don't know why we're even arguing about this.

 

[Psion]

Works for me. I don't know why we're even arguing about this.

Because in the context of the story, as shot and aired, there are three possibilities:

1. Dalton's character represents the historical Rassilon
2. The Doctor called him Rassilon derisively to criticize his policies or behavior
3. Dalton was playing some other bloke named Rassilon

Now I don't give option 3 much credit; it's a cheat, but it's still a possibility. There's nothing in the aired episode to nail the matter down conclusively. Hence the "arguing".

On the other hand, The Wormhole states that Russell T. Davies has announced that he intended Dalton to be playing the historical figure. In the absence of evidence corroborating The Wormhole's statement, I Googled around a bit and found other people making similar unsupported statements, but citing page numbers from his book. Since it's unlikely that all these people are lying, I'm willing to suspend my argument for option 2, but there's still the possibility that these other people are misreading/interpreting Davies' book on the matter.

In other words, while I'm willing to relent and agree that Dalton played Rassilon, there is still no objective proof nailing down the matter once and for all in this discussion. Such proof could come from script notes, unaired footage, or Davies' book. Such proof should also come with context ... the surrounding text ... to eliminate confusion. For example, if Davies' said, "Dalton played the historical figure Rassilon -- or rather, someone we're supposed to think is the historical figure Rassilon", we need to be sure that no one gets away with cutting that down to simply "Dalton played the historical figure Rassilon" to support their claims.

 

[Mr. Sin]

There is of course The Five Doctors, which implied that Rassillon was still sort of alive-and even had eternal life- "perpetual, bodily regeneration" I believe Borusa put it-just that the time lords "Had rebelled against his cruelty and locked him in the tower in eternal sleep".


So perhaps he'd "Woken up again" BTW the novels have Borusa redeemed from Rassilon's curse, why not Rassilon himself?

 

[Checkmate]

Works for me. I don't know why we're even arguing about this.

Because in the context of the story, as shot and aired, there are three possibilities:

1. Dalton's character represents the historical Rassilon
2. The Doctor called him Rassilon derisively to criticize his policies or behavior
3. Dalton was playing some other bloke named Rassilon

Now I don't give option 3 much credit; it's a cheat, but it's still a possibility. There's nothing in the aired episode to nail the matter down conclusively. Hence the "arguing".

On the other hand, The Wormhole states that Russell T. Davies has announced that he intended Dalton to be playing the historical figure. In the absence of evidence corroborating The Wormhole's statement, I Googled around a bit and found other people making similar unsupported statements, but citing page numbers from his book. Since it's unlikely that all these people are lying, I'm willing to suspend my argument for option 2, but there's still the possibility that these other people are misreading/interpreting Davies' book on the matter.

In other words, while I'm willing to relent and agree that Dalton played Rassilon, there is still no objective proof nailing down the matter once and for all in this discussion. Such proof could come from script notes, unaired footage, or Davies' book. Such proof should also come with context ... the surrounding text ... to eliminate confusion. For example, if Davies' said, "Dalton played the historical figure Rassilon -- or rather, someone we're supposed to think is the historical figure Rassilon", we need to be sure that no one gets away with cutting that down to simply "Dalton played the historical figure Rassilon" to support their claims.

The problem with your argument is that... it's ridiculous. There's absolutely nothing to backup any claim that he's anyone other than the Rassilon. If there was, then that would be the explanation that required proof. The Doctor or some other notable figure would have to stop and explain that it was an honorary title or whatever other silly ideas you people have concocted.

Nevermind, again, that we've never to my knowledge seen two Time Lords with the same name. Hell, we've seen the same Time Lord with two different names. Nor has Rassilon ever been presented as anything other than a proper name.

The most peculiar thing about your posts is that you seem to be looking down and sneering at people who aren't being irrational about it and accepting it for exactly what it was.

 

[Psion]

The most peculiar thing about your posts is that you seem to be looking down and sneering at people who aren't being irrational about it and accepting it for exactly what it was.

This is purely a figment of your own imagination.

 

[Checkmate]

The most peculiar thing about your posts is that you seem to be looking down and sneering at people who aren't being irrational about it and accepting it for exactly what it was.

This is purely a figment of your own imagination.

Hmm.

Parsimony's edge is sharp and likely to cut those who wield it carelessly.

Yep, sure is just a figment.

 

[Psion]

"you seem to be looking down and sneering at people who aren't being irrational about it and accepting it for exactly what it was."

People, Checkmate. You said people. That's plural. Back it up with more examples.

"Parsimony's edge is sharp and likely to cut those who wield it carelessly."

And how is that even sneering at you?

Do you spend a lot of time persecuting yourself for something? Because it's spilling over and you seem to be projecting it on me when all I'm trying to do is have a civil conversation.

 

[Sci]

There is as much evidence that Dalton was playing Rassilon as there is that Tennant was playing the Doctor.

Or are we going to claim that there was no evidence that Eccleston's and Tennant's Doctors were the same man as Doctors One through Eight before "Human Nature" had the pictures of the older Doctors in it, and that him calling himself the Doctor is insufficient evidence?

 

[David cgc]

Well, he did say it felt like he died and some new man sauntered off.

 

[Psion]

There is as much evidence that Dalton was playing Rassilon as there is that Tennant was playing the Doctor.

First, there is significantly more evidence that Tennant was playing the Doctor than Dalton was playing Rassilon. Tennant's character introduced himself as the Doctor in almost every episode. How many times did Dalton's character introduce himself as Rassilon?

Second, let's assume there's a scene between a cop and an unruly teen and the teen says to the cop, "I don't have to listen to you, Barney Fife!" Are you convinced the cop's name must therefore be Barney? Or is it possible the teen is trying to make a sarcastic point about the cop's behavior?

Isn't it also possible that the Doctor was trying to make a similar point about Dalton's character?

Third, what do you think I meant when I said, "... I'm willing to relent and agree that Dalton played [the historical] Rassilon ..."?

Fourth, in spite of relenting, I still have a doubt because there is reasonable wiggle room for an alternative identification for Dalton's character. So, for all you who wish to persist in this matter, all I ask for is proof. The Wormhole came closest to settling this by at least referring to said proof, but didn't provide a link or an extended quote from a source which I'd like to have a look at to make sure there isn't any more wiggle room.

Or are we going to claim that there was no evidence that Eccleston's and Tennant's Doctors were the same man as Doctors One through Eight before "Human Nature" had the pictures of the older Doctors in it, and that him calling himself the Doctor is insufficient evidence?

I just don't follow you here at all. By "Human Nature", it was pretty conclusive that the Doctor was the same man as shown in previous productions. He called himself the same name, used the same means of getting around, had an identical TARDIS, confronted the same enemies, and even made references to events in pre-RTD productions. Compare that with what we know about Dalton's character. He was called "Rassilon" once. He didn't act the way Rassilon did in the past, did not look the same, did not dress the same, and didn't carry any of Rassilon's vestments. At no point in "End of Time" did Dalton's character refer to himself as Rassilon or previous incarnations or make any other references that would identify him as anyone of significance in previous Doctor Who lore. He did wear the Seal of Rassilon, but we've seen that seal associated with other Timelords, including the Doctor himself.

Let me close with a quote from the final words on the entry for Rassilon on the Doctor Who Wiki:

It should be noted that, at no point in The End of Time, is it explicitly stated that the Rassilon in that story is the same individual as depicted previously. Just as English monarchs and Popes often share the names of previous monarchs and Popes, it's possible this Rassilon took his name from the Rassilon of old. Although it is unlikely that this is a different Rassilon as otherwise every Time Lord who took the title: Lord President would share the same name of Rassilon. Furthermore just because characters in the Doctor Who universe are not explicitly mentioned to be the same character doesn't mean they aren't the same character as depicted previously

 

[Checkmate]

"you seem to be looking down and sneering at people who aren't being irrational about it and accepting it for exactly what it was."

People, Checkmate. You said people. That's plural. Back it up with more examples.

"Parsimony's edge is sharp and likely to cut those who wield it carelessly."

And how is that even sneering at you?

Do you spend a lot of time persecuting yourself for something? Because it's spilling over and you seem to be projecting it on me when all I'm trying to do is have a civil conversation.

Feel free to keep trying to act holier than thou. Your intent was obvious with your statements, and that intent was fully obvious and received as such.

The simple fact is that you're insisting that these insane theories are more viable and possible than the bleeding obvious response, and acting like anyone who doesn't share those insane theories are somehow limited intellectually. It's completely asinine.

 

[Psion]

The simple fact is that you're insisting that these insane theories...

It's insane that Dalton's character might not have been the historical Rassilon? Really? INSANE? And, for the record, I've never insisted on anything in this thread. Not one damn thing.

... these insane theories are more viable and possible ...

"More viable and possible"? Did you not read my posts carefully enough? My first post on this subject suggested, "Perhaps the Doctor wasn't being quite literal when he addressed Dalton's character." It's up to you, Checkmate to prove where I've said my alternative explanation for the name Rassilon is more plausible than the literal interpretation. You won't find that, though, because that's purely a figment of your imagination.

My second post on this subject ended with "... There may still be a bit of wiggle room, but until I know more, I'll give up this argument." Did you read that post, Checkmate? That's the one where I was conceding that it seemed RTD indeed intended Dalton's character was the historical Rassilon. Of course, you couldn't leave it at that and had to follow up with your misapplied Occam's Razor bullshit. The trouble here is that you tried to sound erudite and pushy yourself and you just can't take someone pushing back.

... and acting like anyone who doesn't share those insane theories are somehow limited intellectually.

WTF? I've done nothing of the kind, Checkmate. Again, I want proof of your accusations.

It's completely asinine.

That's quite enough from you. I've contributed to this thread in the spirit of civil discourse and all I've gotten from you are lies, acrimony, and rhetorical thuggery. I've even cited other sources in support of my suggestion, and you can't reciprocate with the most basic levels of civility. All the arrogant presumption -- all the ridicule has been a one-way torrent flowing from you. If you insist on deliberately misinterpreting everything I type as some sort of personal persecution then that's not my problem, it's yours.

 

[Sci]

There is as much evidence that Dalton was playing Rassilon as there is that Tennant was playing the Doctor.

First, there is significantly more evidence that Tennant was playing the Doctor than Dalton was playing Rassilon.

Not really. All we have, really, is the Doctor's word that he's the same guy as the one we saw in DW TOS.

Which, of course, is the same evidence we have that the Lord President was Rassilon: The Doctor's say-so.

Second, let's assume there's a scene between a cop and an unruly teen and the teen says to the cop, "I don't have to listen to you, Barney Fife!" Are you convinced the cop's name must therefore be Barney?

Yes. Why? Because there isn't a single teenager alive in America today who would ever think to call a cop "Barney Fife," because none of them watch reruns of The Andy Griffith Show.

Isn't it also possible that the Doctor was trying to make a similar point about Dalton's character?

Improbable. Why would he address him as "Rassilon" unless it's actually Rassilon? Especially since it's not as though Rassilon was a particularly mockable character -- or a particularly moral or heroic one.

So, for all you who wish to persist in this matter, all I ask for is proof.

Well, of course there's no proof. It's a TV show. But the preponderance of evidence is that it's Rassilon, and there's no evidence it isn't Rassilon.

Compare that with what we know about Dalton's character. He was called "Rassilon" once. He didn't act the way Rassilon did in the past,

Sure he did. Rassilon was always a bastard.

did not look the same, did not dress the same,

Meaningless. The Ninth Doctor looked and dressed nothing like the Eighth Doctor, yet they were the same man.

and didn't carry any of Rassilon's vestments. At no point in "End of Time" did Dalton's character refer to himself as Rassilon or previous incarnations or make any other references that would identify him as anyone of significance in previous Doctor Who lore. He did wear the Seal of Rassilon, but we've seen that seal associated with other Timelords, including the Doctor himself.

And then he was referred to as Rassilon by a character who was rather obviously condemning him for his behavior rather than mocking him for anything.

 

[Psion]

There is as much evidence that Dalton was playing Rassilon as there is that Tennant was playing the Doctor.

First, there is significantly more evidence that Tennant was playing the Doctor than Dalton was playing Rassilon.

Not really. All we have, really, is the Doctor's word that he's the same guy as the one we saw in DW TOS.

Which, of course, is the same evidence we have that the Lord President was Rassilon: The Doctor's say-so.

We've twice seen visual depictions of all prior regenerations. David Tennant's Doctor interacted with Peter Davison's Doctor as if they were the same character. Tennant and Eccleston repeatedly referenced storylines and characters from TOS. There's a ton of evidence that the modern Doctors are part of the same litany. Now what evidence is there that Dalton was playing Rassilon? The Doctor condemned, "Back into the Time War, Rassilon! Back into Hell!" I agree that this means Dalton's character was probably the historical Rassilon. But I'm just trying to get folks to see there's another interpretation of the Doctor's line that raises other possibilities.

Yes. Why? Because there isn't a single teenager alive in America today who would ever think to call a cop "Barney Fife," because none of them watch reruns of The Andy Griffith Show.

Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration, isn't it? I'm sure there are a few out there who do, and quite a few more who'd understand the reference. In fact, oh looky here, the Urban Dictionary even has the reference! But that isn't the point, is it? I provided Barney Fife used in such a situation as an example of a non-literal name.

Isn't it also possible that the Doctor was trying to make a similar point about Dalton's character?

Improbable. Why would he address him as "Rassilon" unless it's actually Rassilon? Especially since it's not as though Rassilon was a particularly mockable character -- or a particularly moral or heroic one.

Again, he addressed the character as "Rassilon" exactly once. And I just raised the possibility he wasn't speaking literally.

So, for all you who wish to persist in this matter, all I ask for is proof.

Well, of course there's no proof. It's a TV show. But the preponderance of evidence is that it's Rassilon, and there's no evidence it isn't Rassilon.

Well of course there's proof ... what has Russell T. Davies said on the matter? That's what I was getting at when I referenced The Wormhole's post, and I kept hoping he'd return with a quote from his source to settle the matter. Even then, it's always possible Moffat or another writer years from now could see the obvious alternative explanations of the episode itself and use one of those as a launching point.

Compare that with what we know about Dalton's character. He was called "Rassilon" once. He didn't act the way Rassilon did in the past,

Sure he did. Rassilon was always a bastard.

Oh, alright, I have to concede that point. Along with points about appearance and costume.

And then he was referred to as Rassilon by a character who was rather obviously condemning him for his behavior rather than mocking him for anything.

I don't see why he couldn't have been doing both. Indeed, calling Joe Timelord "Rassilon" while condemning his behavior would reinforce the Doctor's disgust, wouldn't it?

Look, I appreciate the effort you've put into discussing this, but I'm afraid Checkmate has ruined this thread for me. Those folks who've kept an open mind on the matter get a double thumbs up. And, as I've maintained all along, I agree Dalton's character was likely Rassilon, I just wanted to discuss alternatives.

 

[Neroon]

Psion and Checkmate ... now that you two have that out of your system, I will ask you to cut out the overly-charged replies to each other. There's no need to become so offended at each other.

 

[Psion]

Psion and Checkmate ... now that you two have that out of your system, I will ask you to cut out the overly-charged replies to each other. There's no need to become so offended at each other.

But ... but ... but there is! The rage! The indignation! The self-righteous acrimony that goes along with grappling with one's enemy throughout all of thread and forum -- hands clasped tightly about each other's necks as we gust invectives and spittle in our two-man war ...

It's positively epic! The stuff of songs!

...

Oh, alright.

Checkmate, I'm sorry for saying stuff that you thought belittled you. Shall we shake hands and stuff?

...

Okay, okay, I've taken the hand buzzer off. Shake?

 

[Neroon]

Yes it was almost G'Kar / Londo in their final embrace.

I've gone back and watched "The End of Time, Pt 2" ... and there seems little doubt that the character played by Timothy Dalton is indeed Rassilon. But then I don't know anything about the character prior to nuWho. According to a Wiki article "there are many contradictory legends about Rassilon. " That alone can foment some of the theory that Dalton played someone else. But then much of those contradictions occurred before TEOT. That tilts things back to this probably being THE Rassilon.

But for me the final proof is that is the name in the credits. And we all know that television is the Supreme Authority over all we are.