I think an even better example is "Public Enemy's" Chuck D or KRS-1. Not only do they add politics & historical facts into their raps but Chuck has made an art from of rapping off beat as his style. Something to this day very few other rappers can do.
Rap Music Should Be Included In Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame
- Thread starter Dusty Ayres
- Start date
There's no denying - at least not on my part - that there is real, viable talent in the community of rap & hip-hop artists. Creating and performing lyrics, regardless of their rhyming, requires a certain level of talent and ability that some have and some don't. True, there is talent that never gets recognized for one reason or another, just as with all genres. I won't be able to discern that much as I am decidedly not a fan of these genres, but I freely accept that talent does exist.
Neeka, you make a good point about how sampling got started. I don't see that as being complete justification anymore for what I consider to be the overuse of sampling, but it's still interesting and I'm glad to know better now.
exodus, that's a slippery slope to be perched upon when evaluating who has talent. I am certainly no fan of Roth's but he's in the Hall because he was and is a member of one of rock's most successful and more influential bands in history. Individually, well there's talent needed to be a front-man but perhaps that talent is more common and so not thought as highly of. As for Madonna, while I tend to think she's as much "Satan in drag"
, she has definitely influenced pop music culturally, so if rap artists are recognized for such influence... she seems to have as much merit.
Neeka, you make a good point about how sampling got started. I don't see that as being complete justification anymore for what I consider to be the overuse of sampling, but it's still interesting and I'm glad to know better now.
exodus, that's a slippery slope to be perched upon when evaluating who has talent. I am certainly no fan of Roth's but he's in the Hall because he was and is a member of one of rock's most successful and more influential bands in history. Individually, well there's talent needed to be a front-man but perhaps that talent is more common and so not thought as highly of. As for Madonna, while I tend to think she's as much "Satan in drag"
, she has definitely influenced pop music culturally, so if rap artists are recognized for such influence... she seems to have as much merit.It's already a slippery slope when people say rappers have no musical talent as well. The stone was already thrown, I threw it back to show Rock & Rap are equal on both sides.There's no denying - at least not on my part - that there is real, viable talent in the community of rap & hip-hop artists. Creating and performing lyrics, regardless of their rhyming, requires a certain level of talent and ability that some have and some don't. True, there is talent that never gets recognized for one reason or another, just as with all genres. I won't be able to discern that much as I am decidedly not a fan of these genres, but I freely accept that talent does exist.
Neeka, you make a good point about how sampling got started. I don't see that as being complete justification anymore for what I consider to be the overuse of sampling, but it's still interesting and I'm glad to know better now.
exodus, that's a slippery slope to be perched upon when evaluating who has talent. I am certainly no fan of Roth's but he's in the Hall because he was and is a member of one of rock's most successful and more influential bands in history. Individually, well there's talent needed to be a front-man but perhaps that talent is more common and so not thought as highly of. As for Madonna, while I tend to think she's as much "Satan in drag"
That's the safe, politically correct response. The truth is that rap/hip-hop requires less vocal talent, less knowledge of musical composition and less skill in playing musical instruments than any form of popular music in the last 100 years. Rap artists don't need to demonstrate much besides "attitude" and an ability to rhyme.
I'm afraid that the popularity of rap/hip-hop has come at the cost of another traditionally African-American form, i.e. soul and funk. The rap/hip-hop idiom has been regularly producing new stars every year at least since the early 1980's. Why? The entrance requirements for the form are relatively simple. In the meantime, what has happened to soul and funk? What happened to the generation of artists that should have succeeded the Isley Brothers, the Ohio Players, Parliament/Funkadelic and Earth, Wind & Fire? Where are all the new soul/funk bands? Can't they get recording contracts? Is soul & funk too "old-school" for trend-conscious record labels? I think these are valid questions.
No air play.
There have been several soul/funk bands that have come out in the last decade, from "Robert Randolph and the Family Band" to the new "Mint Condition" to "Joe Public". None of them get air play beyond being a one hit wonder. There is no market in many major cities for that type of music. Even Prince's new material doesn't get air play anymore. George Clinton's last 4 CD's haven't gotten airplay anywhere outside of Washington, DC. If Prince and George's mix of funk/soul/rock can't get played, what chance do any of these folks have?
However TOP 40 radio has been producing an equal number of new sto that of Rap. The question is, how many of them on both sides have staying power? For every Jay-Z or Christina Agularia(sp?) there are 5 or 6 Lady Ga-Ga's or Lil John's that disappear after their 15mins are up.
Just because one party throws a stone, doesn't make it imperative for someone to throw another one back at them .... especially if you think it was wrong to begin with. The stone-throwing needs to stop at some point.
Perhaps, but I do believe that there is talent in that genre. I know I couldn't pull it off. And while it's true that less talent and "musicianship" is required, there is talent required elsewhere beyond a simple flash in the pan or glare in the camera to be successful as a hip-hop artist. The same can be said for most genres don't you think?
Exactly.
QFT. And they don't even rhyme, most of the time. It's assonance. [insert your own joke here]
--Ted
You're a writer. Anybody can write, though. Writing takes no talent whatsoever. I can't believe publishers pay writers to do whatever it is that they do!
Am I allowed to have an equal & opposite opinion here or not?
You're a writer. Anybody can write, though. Writing takes no talent whatsoever. I can't believe publishers pay writers to do whatever it is that they do!
Yeah. Excellent parallel. Thanks for proving that NOT anyone can write comparatively.
--Ted
Your big criticism of rap is that it doesn't rhyme? Seriously? Do you also think that all poetry has to rhyme?
i dont have a problem with it. what i do have a problem with is that legendary rock artists like RUSH are not in the hall, and have never had a sniff from the hall. utter bullshit.
Of course you are, always have been. It's just that using the same tactic in response to a tactic you're criticizing will blunt so much of your effectiveness. It doesn't mitigate the other at all. You opine that rap artists have talent, while others say the opposite. It's mostly a matter of personal choice I suppose (I tend to think that rappers and hip-hoppers do have talent).
Completely off topic, but I saw this on http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/TG_Theodore:
You're a writer. Anybody can write, though. Writing takes no talent whatsoever. I can't believe publishers pay writers to do whatever it is that they do!
Yeah. Excellent parallel. Thanks for proving that NOT anyone can write comparatively.
--Ted
"I developed a series bible back in 2001 for Starfleet Medical, based at Starfleet Medical on Earth but with a major Medical/Science vessel at its periodic disposal commanded by, yes, Beverly Crusher, and involving our favorite EMH. The focus was on medicine more than space, but the ship allowed for space stuff, too -- usually related to the medical story, of course, but allowing for the gratuitous space battle from time to time."
Now, that's a damned fine idea. I've been saying for years that they should do something like this. Medical shows are huge now!
As you say, it's a matter of personal choice.
Besides with all the things I've said in this thread that does hold water, if I mistepped one just one then I can live with that.
However, this dragging the topic further off course than it needs to be. Don't you agree?
Last edited:
Nowhere Man
Commodore
While I do love rap and I think it's an important form of art and music, I don't think it should be included in the Rock 'n' Roll hall of fame , I mean it's two different forms of music. It's not Rock 'n' Roll.I grew up in the 80's and 90's when rap was first coming out, have nothing agianst it, but it just dosen't fit into the category, there should be a cuttoff point. Those who point to Smokey Robinson, James Brown and Ray Charles, that is an early form of Rock n'Roll. You can't have rock without the early 50's and 60's. Rock evolved from there and moved towards fuk in the 70's and early 80's and that's where rap stems from. I think maybe some rap should be included from the early 80's like the ones that use rock as a main source of music. The Beastie Boy's or Run Dmc, Kid Rock,the Roots, these would be good examples because they are more like a band and use a form of rock as thier primary source of music, but rap instead of sing. Yeah Eminim may use some rock in his songs, but clearly he's a rapper. Thier should be a defined criteria.
My hatred for rap is pretty well-known. I don't believe it belongs in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame because it's not really music.
It's not just the race hatred, disrespect of women and law enforcement, and glorification of drugs and violence that disgusts me...it's also the total lack of any musical ability on the part of the so-called "artists". When I was in school, I was taught that music had to have three elements: melody, harmony, and rhythm. Rap has totally disposed of the first two elements, leaving only rhythm. For that reason it shouldn't even be considered music. If you spoon-feed children nothing but shit, they will eventually develop a taste for it. That's what rap has done to an entire generation.
But it's not just rap, either, because the entire music scene is rife with no-talent poseurs. On "American Idol" the judges tell potential "stars" that they need to have "the whole package"...meaning, in addition to passable singing ability, they have to look good and be able to follow choreography. They put musical ability on the same level as marketability. Once upon a time, in order to be considered a musician, you had to be able to sing, write songs and play an instrument...not just lip-synch and look good in the video. Could Jimi Hendrix, Bob Dylan or even Les Paul have made it on "Idol"?
The music industry has been dumbed-down to the point where the average dumb-ass American can't tell whether someone has put in years of practice or mere weeks. Playing an instrument at a high level is no longer respected in American culture. Sometimes I think all those kids who are studying music in college are wasting their time and their parents' money...since hardly anyone pays for music anymore, why should they? Why spend all those long hours perfecting your craft, knowing that in all liklihood your songs will just be illegally downloaded for free?
But then, the Jonas Brothers, Miley, Kanye West and Ludacris probably make more in a week than I'll earn in my entire life. So who's the idiot? Maybe it's me.
It's not just the race hatred, disrespect of women and law enforcement, and glorification of drugs and violence that disgusts me...it's also the total lack of any musical ability on the part of the so-called "artists". When I was in school, I was taught that music had to have three elements: melody, harmony, and rhythm. Rap has totally disposed of the first two elements, leaving only rhythm. For that reason it shouldn't even be considered music. If you spoon-feed children nothing but shit, they will eventually develop a taste for it. That's what rap has done to an entire generation.
But it's not just rap, either, because the entire music scene is rife with no-talent poseurs. On "American Idol" the judges tell potential "stars" that they need to have "the whole package"...meaning, in addition to passable singing ability, they have to look good and be able to follow choreography. They put musical ability on the same level as marketability. Once upon a time, in order to be considered a musician, you had to be able to sing, write songs and play an instrument...not just lip-synch and look good in the video. Could Jimi Hendrix, Bob Dylan or even Les Paul have made it on "Idol"?
The music industry has been dumbed-down to the point where the average dumb-ass American can't tell whether someone has put in years of practice or mere weeks. Playing an instrument at a high level is no longer respected in American culture. Sometimes I think all those kids who are studying music in college are wasting their time and their parents' money...since hardly anyone pays for music anymore, why should they? Why spend all those long hours perfecting your craft, knowing that in all liklihood your songs will just be illegally downloaded for free?
But then, the Jonas Brothers, Miley, Kanye West and Ludacris probably make more in a week than I'll earn in my entire life. So who's the idiot? Maybe it's me.
Stevie Wonder, Gladys Knight & Etta James are in there also.
It's also been proven that forms of Rap predates Rock n Roll. Many historians have shown that forms of Rap as well as call and response were used as forms of communication between slaves to hide secert messages from their slave masters in their quest for freedom. Forms of rap have also been used as a way to tell stories in African tribes. The beats in Rap & much of R&B are derived from African tribal drums. During the 60's & 70's this was refered to as "Beat Poetry", a form of rap that still continues today. So in essance, Rap's roots are derived from Jazz & Blues much like Rock n Roll just as the terms Bee-Bop & Hip Hop are.
Last edited:
It is written to be emphasized as if it rhymes. And it does sometimes and it doesn't sometimes ... within the same piece.
That's not "free verse" that's inconsistency, and lack of discipline in the writing.
Lazy, lazy stuff.
--Ted
Can you give an example?