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Ransom and the Equinox

That would have been a far more interesting tv show! But then Voyager always failed to handle more than a few characters well. Sadly I think it would have been, in the hands of the creative team it had, just as unimaginative a show as Voyager usually was with its premise and characters.

I don't blame the creative team. [...] The problem is that UPN kept imposing limits on them, pushing for a simpler, more episodic approach and discouraging them from telling stories with lasting consequences, [...]. Since VGR was the linchpin of Paramount's brand-new network, the network execs were reluctant to take any risks with it and so they insisted on a rather conservative approach, one that wouldn't alienate casual viewers with overly complicated or involved storylines.

Perhaps that is explanative enough of the creation situation of the show, but I was under the impression that the studio would have been less restrictive as the seasons went on. Though he is biased by his bad experiences on the show, RDM wrote about the studio:
VOYAGER is given carte blanche by Paramount. That’s one of the great things about Paramount. Paramount left us alone. They always left us alone. They let NEXT GEN do whatever it wanted. God knows it let DEEP SPACE NINE do whatever we wanted. It lets VOYAGER do whatever it wants. The studio is not the problem here. The studio is going to let you go wherever you want to go, as long as they believe that this is quality, as long as they believe it’s good work.
[Bottom of Part V of the interview]
And I think it does not let off the hook good television brains who let themselves be limited, be it in the very mundane depiction of the DQ, or the blandness of the main characters (though arguably TNG had a bland set of characters too). I seem to remember Robert Beltran's continual complaints to magazines in the late 1990s about the show's management and writing, which suggest that there was an awareness of the show's failings and a lack of energy on the part of the crew and studio to experiment (beyond adding the Borg and 7 to the mix in a larger manner).

But as I said Voyager just was introverted compared to what else was on the box then, and what was artistically capable of being made, designed and told on 1990s television.

Because it was a boxing episode and I loathe boxing. Anything where people are actually encouraged to inflict incurable, cumulative brain damage on one another at the risk of crippling neurological problems or death is an obscenity. If boxers were required to wear head protection or avoid hitting above the neck, to have the kind of safeguards that are mandatory in most other sports, that would be different; but as it is, I think it's an outrage that it's even legal.

[...]the BSG episode (by Michael Taylor, who wrote the story for "The Fight") wholeheartedly and unapologetically embraced the violence and brutality of boxing and used it to underline petty character conflicts that I didn't respect and found tedious. It exemplified everything that turned me off about the show. [...] I don't remember many specifics about that episode and I don't want to.

That's fine Christopher, it explains your dislike well, though I had and continue to have different reactions to both the said episode and the issue depicted. I guess I do not believe the state should prevent an event in which all parties have agreed to take part freely, as such a situation would impinge upon free will and also the treacherous concept of human rights. My wife has similar views on violence in general, though she liked that episode whilst tolerating the sport itself.
 
That's fine Christopher, it explains your dislike well, though I had and continue to have different reactions to both the said episode and the issue depicted. I guess I do not believe the state should prevent an event in which all parties have agreed to take part freely, as such a situation would impinge upon free will and also the treacherous concept of human rights. My wife has similar views on violence in general, though she liked that episode whilst tolerating the sport itself.

Would that extend to allowing, say, Russian roulette or pistol duelling as a spectator sport? The state has an obligation to protect its citizens' lives and safety; if nothing else, allowing irresponsibly and unnecessarily dangerous practices results in serious injuries that impair people's ability to contribute to the economy and put a serious drain on the health care system, so it's in all of society's best interests if basic health and safety practices are observed, which is why cars have seatbelts, football players wear helmets and pads, baseball players wear batting helmets, etc. It's also just a matter of compassion to try to discourage people from crippling or killing each other. There are plenty of sports out there that employ reasonable precautions to prevent serious or fatal injury, as a protection of human rights as well as just plain common sense. Like I said, why can't boxers just employ a reasonable level of head protection like other athletes do?

But this is getting off topic and it's not a subject I find pleasant to think about anyway. I probably shouldn't have brought it up.
 
That's fine Christopher, it explains your dislike well, though I had and continue to have different reactions to both the said episode and the issue depicted. I guess I do not believe the state should prevent an event in which all parties have agreed to take part freely, as such a situation would impinge upon free will and also the treacherous concept of human rights. My wife has similar views on violence in general, though she liked that episode whilst tolerating the sport itself.

Would that extend to allowing, say, Russian roulette or pistol duelling as a spectator sport? The state has an obligation to protect its citizens' lives and safety; if nothing else, allowing irresponsibly and unnecessarily dangerous practices results in serious injuries that impair people's ability to contribute to the economy and put a serious drain on the health care system, so it's in all of society's best interests if basic health and safety practices are observed, which is why cars have seatbelts, football players wear helmets and pads, baseball players wear batting helmets, etc. It's also just a matter of compassion to try to discourage people from crippling or killing each other. There are plenty of sports out there that employ reasonable precautions to prevent serious or fatal injury, as a protection of human rights as well as just plain common sense. Like I said, why can't boxers just employ a reasonable level of head protection like other athletes do?

Not being a boxer, nor a commentator, nor indeed a viewer of the sport, I do not know why. Of course there will be reasons, for and against, but it is not my place to say because I do not know. But sports are not controlled by the state, they are measured by associations who define the level of protection players must wear. In the relatively violetn sport of Rugby players do not wear much padding - I think only a gum-guard is required? Fellow Europeans/Australians/South Africans, any help here? But in any case, the players choose this and abide by these rules as part of an agreement to play the game competitively.

You know when writing the above section, I really did think of dueling. I wasn't sure what I thought on it, except that it had some sense of nobility that served to ensure that social conventions and expectations were met and preserved. My caveat was my semi-libertarian statement was that as long as both parties made it known their actions were by their own free choice.

In any case, I do not think that boxing puts a serious drain on the healthcare system, since there are so few boxers and the majority of the sport is generally maintained by associations.

Wider social issues where the state should maybe intervene include massed alcohol abuse, driving without seatbelts and the like because (i) they affect the majority of the population; (ii) if they were not enforced the common occurance of these issues would cause major healthcare impacts (a current debate in the UK over alcohol abuse fcouses on the cost to the state healthcare system) and (iii) finally also endanger others, who would not choose to be involved in such an event (including the children within a car, or pedestrians or other road users who may be hit by an ejecting body; or alternatively the people who breathe in carcinogenic fumes simply by entering a public service institution in which smoking is allowed).

This is a sliding scale, but rampant statism is a real threat to 'human rights', because it limits the individual event or person too much in an effort to save the collective. Consider the recently announed Scottish Public ENtertainment Licence Fee, which demands that free art events in Scotland will have to announce themselves 3 months in advance, and require consultation and a health-and-safety inspection. This means no longer improptu free art events, including a band playing at a house party, or a free exhibition of an artist's art, or a literary reading event, or indeed events like casual boxing or other spectator events that fit into the arts - without the inspection of a government figure.

Yet the bill totally makes sense, from a health and safety point of view, ensuring people don't injure themselves, precautions are taken, and so on. Yet the result of the bill might be state limitation of events that are important, and the complete abandonment due to costs such events.

[sorry this is a less ontopic post, I have to get going :) ]
 
I'm too busy to respond and I don't really want to think about this subject anymore. Forget all the political philosophy, I just personally hate to watch boxing and so I didn't enjoy the BSG episode that portrayed it extensively and graphically. Let's leave it at that.
 
I'm too busy to respond and I don't really want to think about this subject anymore. Forget all the political philosophy, I just personally hate to watch boxing and so I didn't enjoy the BSG episode that portrayed it extensively and graphically. Let's leave it at that.

Sure thing, but thanks for replying.
 
Perhaps if Ransom boxed one of the Schwartz aliens for winner-take-all, we'd have seen a vastly different outcome.
 
Perhaps if Ransom boxed one of the Schwartz aliens for winner-take-all, we'd have seen a vastly different outcome.

And as a reference to 'Unfinished Business' could have involved various interesting flashbacks showing the various crewmen remonstrating about the decisions that led them to the situation surrounding the match.

[Fittingly, for example, Titus Welliver could think back to (or forward as it may be) to when he chose to abandon the government's codes and work for a bit of a pirate of a man (swapping Al Swearengen for Cpt. Ransom in such flashbacks)].
 
Would that extend to allowing, say, Russian roulette or pistol duelling as a spectator sport? The state has an obligation to protect its citizens' lives and safety; if nothing else, allowing irresponsibly and unnecessarily dangerous practices results in serious injuries that impair people's ability to contribute to the economy and put a serious drain on the health care system, so it's in all of society's best interests if basic health and safety practices are observed, which is why cars have seatbelts, football players wear helmets and pads, baseball players wear batting helmets, etc. It's also just a matter of compassion to try to discourage people from crippling or killing each other. There are plenty of sports out there that employ reasonable precautions to prevent serious or fatal injury, as a protection of human rights as well as just plain common sense. Like I said, why can't boxers just employ a reasonable level of head protection like other athletes do?

What about Kirk's rock climbing in TFF? Was what he was doing illegal or was he simply exercising his freedom from having someone determine what was and wasn't safe for him?

What about recreational skydiving? Or orbital skydiving, as seen in the deleted opening of Generations? It would appear that Earth, at least, doesn't stop adults from doing things that could cause them harm. It's not that far removed to allowing someone to play Russian roulette or partake in a duel. As long as all parties are consenting adults, what business is it of the government?
 
It's not that far removed to allowing someone to play Russian roulette or partake in a duel. As long as all parties are consenting adults, what business is it of the government?

While I'd tend to agree that boxing, and other potentially harmful acts, occurring between consenting adults should be legal, I'd object to that extending towards the use of firearms. Guns, you see, can miss and end up killing someone else who did not consent to be part of the game.

ETA:

For what it's worth, the Federation already seems to allow consensual homicide in at least some contexts. No one seems to be arrested on Vulcan for participating in the kal-if-fee, for instance.
 
It's not that far removed to allowing someone to play Russian roulette or partake in a duel. As long as all parties are consenting adults, what business is it of the government?

While I'd tend to agree that boxing, and other potentially harmful acts, occurring between consenting adults should be legal, I'd object to that extending towards the use of firearms. Guns, you see, can miss and end up killing someone else who did not consent to be part of the game.

You can take prcautions, such as only performing it in an approved arena such as a concrete room. We know that in Trek they can remotely disable weapons. It would't be that difficult to come up with a phaser that works like a six shooter with only one bullet in it and that only works within a specific room when the door is closed. If the door opens, the weapon deactivates.

It's in the future, it doesn't have to be a .38 like we have today.
 
It's not that far removed to allowing someone to play Russian roulette or partake in a duel. As long as all parties are consenting adults, what business is it of the government?

While I'd tend to agree that boxing, and other potentially harmful acts, occurring between consenting adults should be legal, I'd object to that extending towards the use of firearms. Guns, you see, can miss and end up killing someone else who did not consent to be part of the game.

You can take prcautions, such as only performing it in an approved arena such as a concrete room. We know that in Trek they can remotely disable weapons. It would't be that difficult to come up with a phaser that works like a six shooter with only one bullet in it and that only works within a specific room when the door is closed. If the door opens, the weapon deactivates.

It's in the future, it doesn't have to be a .38 like we have today.

So Russian Roulette with a Raygun...so it only fires 1/6 times?
 
While I'd tend to agree that boxing, and other potentially harmful acts, occurring between consenting adults should be legal, I'd object to that extending towards the use of firearms. Guns, you see, can miss and end up killing someone else who did not consent to be part of the game.

You can take prcautions, such as only performing it in an approved arena such as a concrete room. We know that in Trek they can remotely disable weapons. It would't be that difficult to come up with a phaser that works like a six shooter with only one bullet in it and that only works within a specific room when the door is closed. If the door opens, the weapon deactivates.

It's in the future, it doesn't have to be a .38 like we have today.

So Russian Roulette with a Raygun...so it only fires 1/6 times?

Random number generator. Fires how often you want it to fire, 1/2, 1/6, 1/10, 1/100.
 
It's not that far removed to allowing someone to play Russian roulette or partake in a duel. As long as all parties are consenting adults, what business is it of the government?

What about the parties' families - their material and emotional well-being?
What about the mid and long term consequences of said duel - deadly feuds becomins socially acceptable, social instability, etc.

A government does its job by assuring as high as possible a standard of living for its citizens.
Duels/Russian roulettes and the like are toxic for said standard of living.


And then there's the moral part.
A government has the job to make applicable and apply the morals of its citizens.

A duel - especially when you request it (in order to kill someone), or when there is a social stigma asociated with not accepting the challenge (as it was in all societies where it existed) - is quite similar to legalised murder.

A risky way to kill someone, to be sure - but there are also advantages; for one, you have impunity in front of the law.
 
We know that there's already formalized duels to the death. See Amok Time. The Vulcans even admit that the one of the participants isn't in their right mind, being deep in Plak Tow. Are you suggesting that the Federation has now stepped in and put an end to Koon ut kali fe?

If a person is of sound mind, should the welfare of their family not be their choice? After all, in the 23rd century, if you lose a duel it's not like your family is suddenly going to love their home and slowly starve to death. Their physical standard of living will not change. They'd have the same food, the same shelter, the same opportunities. It's not like there's a breadwinner on whom they depend to provide for them.
 
We know that there's already formalized duels to the death. See Amok Time. The Vulcans even admit that the one of the participants isn't in their right mind, being deep in Plak Tow. Are you suggesting that the Federation has now stepped in and put an end to Koon ut kali fe?

If a person is of sound mind, should the welfare of their family not be their choice? After all, in the 23rd century, if you lose a duel it's not like your family is suddenly going to love their home and slowly starve to death. Their physical standard of living will not change. They'd have the same food, the same shelter, the same opportunities. It's not like there's a breadwinner on whom they depend to provide for them.

I am talking about the real world - where we most definitely don't have something similar Koon ut kali fe or other legal 'duels to the death'; where the death of one family member is traumatic for the other members of the family; where it is NOT moral to have a way of legally trying to kill someone.

Of course, in any type of society - present or utopic future - duels and the like are toxic for the societal structure; losing a meber of your family has consequences, leaving scars - emotional and, at present and for the foreseeable future, material (the one who egoistically wants to duel removes his family from this decision - in any known form of fuel practiced at one time, that is); etc.
 
But we're not talking about the real world, it's a Trek board. If we've veered into a topic with no Trek content then we're way off the track.

Is there any reason for a future government in Trek to prohibit it's citizens from participating in a duel if the participants are both of sound mind and enter into it willingly? What if the people have no family, would friends fulfill the same spot as family then? If they prohibit duels because someone might die then what about rock climbing like Kirk was doing in TFF? It's not like he had Spock flying around as a safety feature. He was surprised when he showed up. How is that different that fighting a duel or playing Russian Roulette? The effect would be the same. Does not the society provide for your needs so that you have the freedom to live your life as you see fit?
 
JamesRKirk

Would that extend to allowing, say, Russian roulette or pistol duelling as a spectator sport? The state has an obligation to protect its citizens' lives and safety; if nothing else, allowing irresponsibly and unnecessarily dangerous practices results in serious injuries that impair people's ability to contribute to the economy and put a serious drain on the health care system, so it's in all of society's best interests if basic health and safety practices are observed, which is why cars have seatbelts, football players wear helmets and pads, baseball players wear batting helmets, etc. It's also just a matter of compassion to try to discourage people from crippling or killing each other. There are plenty of sports out there that employ reasonable precautions to prevent serious or fatal injury, as a protection of human rights as well as just plain common sense. Like I said, why can't boxers just employ a reasonable level of head protection like other athletes do?

What about Kirk's rock climbing in TFF? Was what he was doing illegal or was he simply exercising his freedom from having someone determine what was and wasn't safe for him?

What about recreational skydiving? Or orbital skydiving, as seen in the deleted opening of Generations? It would appear that Earth, at least, doesn't stop adults from doing things that could cause them harm. It's not that far removed to allowing someone to play Russian roulette or partake in a duel. As long as all parties are consenting adults, what business is it of the government?

Christopher is talking real world; I am talking real world.

You are the only one who tries to divorce your arguments from the real world because, without the trekverse moral and societal inconsistencies, you have no argument.

PS - I already gave several reasons duel/etc should be (and are) prohibited you somehow failed to read.
 
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I would love to see a novel dealing with them before they get zapped to the delta quadrunt. it might be interesting to see the dissions they make leading them to abadon the ideals of starfleet and the federation.


I would like to see them when they 1st got to the DQ and see them go down hill. it is an interest discussion. I never saw Ransom as the "bad guy". in the book it explains how he tried to communicate with the aliens but they couldn't and so they thought the aliens were non-sentient. It wasn't until the aliens started attacking Equinox that they realized they were sentient and then it was to late. they used the bodies of the aliens they killed in the attacks, they were already dead.
 
I would love to see a novel dealing with them before they get zapped to the delta quadrunt. it might be interesting to see the dissions they make leading them to abadon the ideals of starfleet and the federation.


I would like to see them when they 1st got to the DQ and see them go down hill. it is an interest discussion. I never saw Ransom as the "bad guy". in the book it explains how he tried to communicate with the aliens but they couldn't and so they thought the aliens were non-sentient. It wasn't until the aliens started attacking Equinox that they realized they were sentient and then it was to late. they used the bodies of the aliens they killed in the attacks, they were already dead.

A background and full history would suit me - from the mission before they were zapped to the Delta Quadrant, the zapping, what happened between then and the episodes, the rest of the journey home on Voyager and what happened when they got back - trial, sentence and rehabilitation. Along the lines of Full Circle.

If Kirsten (who is the obvious choice) can't or isn't interested, I'd be very happy with Una McCormack (Never Ending Sacrifice) or Margaret Wander Bonanno (Unspoken Truth).

A reprint of the adaptation of the episodes by Diane Carey wouldn't go amiss either.
 
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