Rank all the villians in the Star Trek movies
- Thread starter tommyg6
- Start date
hmm... I'll give it a try although I hadn't considered a true list before.
1. General Chang
2. Dr. Soran
3. Borg Queen
4. Khan
5. Kruge
6. "fake God"
7. Ru'afo
8. Shinzon
9. Nero
I think this a pretty accurate picture overall, though I reserve the right to switch a few places around depending how I feel at a particular moment.
Can't imagine my ranking of Nero will change though.
(edited because I realize this is a I-X forum, so throw out the last spot if you want, but the topic says "all" the movies, right?)
1. General Chang
2. Dr. Soran
3. Borg Queen
4. Khan
5. Kruge
6. "fake God"
7. Ru'afo
8. Shinzon
9. Nero
I think this a pretty accurate picture overall, though I reserve the right to switch a few places around depending how I feel at a particular moment.
Can't imagine my ranking of Nero will change though.
(edited because I realize this is a I-X forum, so throw out the last spot if you want, but the topic says "all" the movies, right?)
First post on these forums!
1. Borg Queen
2. Shinzon
3. General Chang
4. Khan
5. Soran
6. Kruge
7. Nero
8. Ru'afo
9. Fake God
I'm mostly into TNG, not too much of a TOS fan, hence why the TNG villains were ranked pretty high on my list. With that said, I loved TUC and Chang's role in it, so I thought it would be fair to give him the highest TOS villain spot.
Cool thread!
1. Borg Queen
2. Shinzon
3. General Chang
4. Khan
5. Soran
6. Kruge
7. Nero
8. Ru'afo
9. Fake God
I'm mostly into TNG, not too much of a TOS fan, hence why the TNG villains were ranked pretty high on my list. With that said, I loved TUC and Chang's role in it, so I thought it would be fair to give him the highest TOS villain spot.
Cool thread!
1. KHAAAAAAANNNN
2. Chang
3.+ All those other guys.
2. Chang
3.+ All those other guys.
No love whatsoever for The Whale Prob, huh?
Meh. Not to play moderator, but I wouldn't sweat it really.
I'm going to preface this list by simply stating that I don't quite dwell on this issue, primarily because Trek tends to be pretty weak in the villain department. With that said, here we go:
1. Chang
2. Borg Queen
3. Khan
4. Kruge
5. Nero
6. Soran
7. Ruafo
8. Fake God
9. Shinzon
8. Shinzon
1. Borg Queen
2. Khan
3. General Chang
4. Shinzon
5. Soran
6. Kruge
7. Nero
8. Ru'afo
9. "Fake God"
2. Khan
3. General Chang
4. Shinzon
5. Soran
6. Kruge
7. Nero
8. Ru'afo
9. "Fake God"
1. Khan
2. Borg Queen
3. General Chang
4. Kruge
5. Nero
6. Shinzon
7. Ru'afo
8. Sybok
9. Soran
10. False God
11. V'Ger
12. Whale Probe
Tougher ranking these guys than I thought after the first two. Sometimes I looked at their impact, at others there acting. I thought Nero was a drab character, and Ru'afo was better acted by F. Murray Abraham, yet Nero had a bigger impact. Same with Shinzon. I wish Abraham had been in a different movie. Though the most powerful beings, with the exception of the Borg Queen, wound up at the bottom of my list in part because the lack of interaction with the cast.
2. Borg Queen
3. General Chang
4. Kruge
5. Nero
6. Shinzon
7. Ru'afo
8. Sybok
9. Soran
10. False God
11. V'Ger
12. Whale Probe
Tougher ranking these guys than I thought after the first two. Sometimes I looked at their impact, at others there acting. I thought Nero was a drab character, and Ru'afo was better acted by F. Murray Abraham, yet Nero had a bigger impact. Same with Shinzon. I wish Abraham had been in a different movie. Though the most powerful beings, with the exception of the Borg Queen, wound up at the bottom of my list in part because the lack of interaction with the cast.
Ain't that the truth. I find both villains to be incredibly boring and pretty shallow on the motivation front, but I blame that on script, not performance. Given other characters with proper writing, Hardy and Abraham could easily give great performances.
For the most part I'd say that's accurate. Though I'm a little surprised that a lot of people have Shinzon at the bottom of their list. Sure the movie he starred in could have been a lot better, but as a villain I thought Shinzon was pretty effective. His motivation could have been clearer, yes, but I like the way he mirrored Picard, and he showed us what Picard could have become had he also lived under those conditions. Having Picard face of against his own clone was pretty epic, IMO.
^
With Shinzon it's a mixed bag with me. I thought Hardy was a good actor and Shinzon was effective in terms of assassinating the Romulan Senate and becoming Praetor, but he totally starting flubbing things after that. Also the idea of a clone was a bit hackeneyed, especially one that didn't look like Picard. I think Hardy worked with what he was given.
That being said, I actually liked Shinzon personally (due to Hardy's performance) over Nero who was far more effective in exacting revenge against Spock by destroying Vulcan. He also wiped out a good deal of Starfleet. So I gave Nero the nod over Shinzon on my list due to his ultimate effectiveness. Nero pretty much accomplished what he set out to do. Shinzon only half accomplished his goals (then again, not sure what his goals were regarding the Romulans, outside of Reman liberation I'm assuming).
Unfortunately, Ru'afo's plans were too small bore for Murray's performance. I wish he had been Shinzon (not Picard's clone; a renegade Romulan commander perhaps) or Nero.
With Shinzon it's a mixed bag with me. I thought Hardy was a good actor and Shinzon was effective in terms of assassinating the Romulan Senate and becoming Praetor, but he totally starting flubbing things after that. Also the idea of a clone was a bit hackeneyed, especially one that didn't look like Picard. I think Hardy worked with what he was given.
That being said, I actually liked Shinzon personally (due to Hardy's performance) over Nero who was far more effective in exacting revenge against Spock by destroying Vulcan. He also wiped out a good deal of Starfleet. So I gave Nero the nod over Shinzon on my list due to his ultimate effectiveness. Nero pretty much accomplished what he set out to do. Shinzon only half accomplished his goals (then again, not sure what his goals were regarding the Romulans, outside of Reman liberation I'm assuming).
Unfortunately, Ru'afo's plans were too small bore for Murray's performance. I wish he had been Shinzon (not Picard's clone; a renegade Romulan commander perhaps) or Nero.
I'd agree that Nero accomplished a lot more than Shinzon, but to me Nero seemed a little too much like a backseat villain. In other words, he was there and he was doing things, but he wasn't the big focus of the movie, unlike Shinzon who was the center of the whole film along with Picard.
Going back to Nero, I really had no problems with him as a villain. He was the common enemy that Kirk and Spock had to work together to defeat, so he served a fine purpose. But the price that that came with was that he was less personal. He wasn't quite as tied to the heroes as Shinzon was to Picard, and that's a big reason that Shinzon works so well for me.
And I agree with you that it would have been really cool if the Romulans had been the big villains of a TNG movie. They felt too much like background characters in Nemesis because they were hardly given anything to do.
Going back to Nero, I really had no problems with him as a villain. He was the common enemy that Kirk and Spock had to work together to defeat, so he served a fine purpose. But the price that that came with was that he was less personal. He wasn't quite as tied to the heroes as Shinzon was to Picard, and that's a big reason that Shinzon works so well for me.
And I agree with you that it would have been really cool if the Romulans had been the big villains of a TNG movie. They felt too much like background characters in Nemesis because they were hardly given anything to do.
I think Hardy's performance was pretty good, but the character didn't really work for me. First, for the obvious poor motivation reason(my problem with Nero as well), but also I DON'T think that he mirrored Picard.
They tried to set up this "dark mirror" thing but I saw nothing of Picard in Shinzon or vice versa. They kept trying to push that angle but it fell flat for me.
I think part of the issue with it being personal with Nero is a lot of that backstory, that personal tie with Spock was not in the movie. I read Countdown beforehand, and granted it isn't canon and it's not essential to watching or enjoying Trek '09 it explained Nero's motivation well enough and it set up his personal beef with Spock. So his actions made a bit more sense in the movie, where I can understand if Nero comes across as a bit more random villain. Though in part I blame some of that on Bana's lackluster performance. Outside of his rage filled scream and gutting the Kelvin captain, he was too blase.
I'll grant you that Shinzon was a more central villain because they were going for that mirror angle with Picard and trying to replicate the mano-a-mano battle of wills from TWOK. The issue with Shinzon is that his motivation never quite worked for me. Picard is not the true source or cause of his pain. The Romulans were. So I never got why he didn't turn that thalaron weapon on Romulus and cook the entire planet. I felt the need for the clone to prove himself better than the original didn't jibe with destroying Earth.
Couldn't he just as easily 'outdid' Picard by destroying Romulus, taking out arguably the Federation's greatest post-Dominion War obstacle? He might've been under the mistaken impression that such an action would gain him acceptance and acclaim among humans, not to mention the Remans. But it felt like some studio dictate that Earth had to be threatened, as if moviegoers wouldn't care unless Earth was threatened. I much rather would've seen the E-E risk all to save the Romulans instead of another tired Earth is in danger story. I still think that NEM erred in trying to emulate TWOK when it should've gone with TUC. Peace with the Romulans would've been a nice way for the TNG movies to go out.
Also, why didn't Shinzon just tell Picard about his medical condition and ask for blood? I'm sure Picard would've worked something out with him and maybe they could've replicated blood or something, enough to keep him going until he had a full transfusion.
When you look at some of the other villains, Shinzon perhaps had the worst motivation of any of them.
-Khan: Wanted revenge on Kirk for stranding him on Ceti Alpha V
-Kruge: Wanted the secrets of the Genesis device to likely use as a weapon
-Sybok: On a religious crusade to find God/Heaven
-Chang: Wanted to maintain cold war or have an actual war with the Federation
-Soran:Wanted to return to the Nexus to be with his loved ones and to experience its narcotic effects
-Borg Queen: Wanted to assimilate Earth in the continuing quest for perfection
-Ru'afo:Wanted the metaphasic energy from Ba'ku, not to mention revenge on them for exiling the Son'a
-Nero: Wanted revenge on Spock because he blamed him for Romulus's destruction
For the most part all of the antagonist had clearer motivations, so their actions made more sense than Shinzon's. Outside of Shinzon acting to acquire Picard's blood (which was over-the-top too; though at least I got why he did it), there isn't much that Shinzon does that makes sense.
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Those are some excellent points, and I don't disagree with you. Had Shinzon's motivation been a lot clearer, it's likely that I would have given him the top spot on my list.
And looking at the list of motivations for the other antagonists that you wrote out, Shinzon probably doesn't even deserve the #2 spot that I gave him. I guess once again it comes down to Shinzon being a much more personal villain than the other movie villains. That doesn't make up for his confusing motivation, but it's enough for me to genuinely enjoy his character and the ties he has to Picard. I try to not think about it too much, though, otherwise I get bogged down in all the plot holes and other problems associated with his character.
And looking at the list of motivations for the other antagonists that you wrote out, Shinzon probably doesn't even deserve the #2 spot that I gave him. I guess once again it comes down to Shinzon being a much more personal villain than the other movie villains. That doesn't make up for his confusing motivation, but it's enough for me to genuinely enjoy his character and the ties he has to Picard. I try to not think about it too much, though, otherwise I get bogged down in all the plot holes and other problems associated with his character.
